Solar powered trains?

johnwhelan

Well-known member
Looking at Africa one thing that strikes me is it is big and that means transportation costs are important. Over any distance rail is uses less energy than road, assuming you choose the appropriate power source and load. ie don't expect a one pound package to be carried by large loco more cheaply than a small car.


The concept is solar panels on the top and electric motors to power the train. Solar power cars have been wandering round Australia for some time now. For a particular type of cargo the ISO container it should be simple enough to design a frame that accepts solar panels on top. If we put small motors on each wagon, much like an EMU we avoid a lot of the hassles involved with heavy locos, like they need really strong bridges and are expensive.


Since we are avoiding burning diesel someone somewhere should either support it because the concept is green or they'll buy the carbon credits.


Now one thing some satellites are good at is determining ground height, so can we identify a possible route preferably more than 500 kms long since the economics are better with longer distances with reasonable gradients and something that rail can carry in ISO containers? That sounds like a city at one end and a port at the other.


As I said its more a dream, it needs the EMU solar panel side sorting out, it needs someone to work out the requirements for the track, its Africa so a top speed of say 50 km/h and initially a lighter track than is sometimes used by US mainline heavy rail. It needs some one to work out the maximum gradient, and to work out if solar will supply the power required. It may come down to solar assist which would reduce the amount of diesel burnt but not eliminate it.


It needs GIS to figure out the cargo, population and markets, it needs maps, and it needs maps with heights. A python script to work out possible routes?


It needs costs.

Thoughts?




Cheerio John
 
Do you realize just how many thousands of solar panels it would take to drive just one 400V traction motor under no load, on a test bench ? Multiply that by 6 traction motors on a loco ... and multiply that by 6 locomotives per train ... and the electrical socket connections, connecting each railcar would be staggering, not to mention the electrocution hazard to RR workers, employees in in factories, and trespassers ... and what about electrical failures in circuits due to snow, and general everyday breakdown, not to mention 3 rock throwing kids, smashing a few solar panels, stopping a solar powered train ?

And the cost of pollution in the manufacturing of billions of solar panels, and the pollution from manufacturing billions of chemical storage batteries, and the environmental pollution of a huge battery dump (like in WilkesBarre PA EPA SuperFund ecological disaster site) disposal of millions of damaged, depleted batteries chemicals, (sulfuric acid, nickle cadmium, nickle hydride ... etc ...)
 
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You're going to need some sort of energy storage because you can't generate power at the rate you need to consume it.
Don't put the solar panels on the vehicles.

Put them track-side where there are thousands of miles of land, already owned and protected by the rail companies. Feed the power back into the national grid to whom it can be sold, then re-acquired on demand. Draw that power to feed the existing overhead lines or third rail.

Probably not cost effective in those countries with no existing electrification, but entirely feasible where it already exists.
 
You're going to need some sort of energy storage because you can't generate power at the rate you need to consume it.



40 foot container 8 foot wide gives room for quite a few panels. Currently the output per panel is 250 watts so 320 square feet of solar should fit 16 panels gives 2kw per ISO container, is that sufficient to move one wagon? 100 wagons gives 200 kw that might be enough to make make it work.

Cheerio John
 
Do you realize just how many thousands of solar panels it would take to drive just one 400V traction motor under no load, on a test bench ? Multiply that by 6 traction motors on a loco ... and multiply that by 6 locomotives per train ... and the electrical socket connections, connecting each railcar would be staggering, not to mention the electrocution hazard to RR workers, employees in in factories, and trespassers ... and what about electrical failures in circuits due to snow, and general everyday breakdown, not to mention 3 rock throwing kids, smashing a few solar panels, stopping a solar powered train ?

And the cost of pollution in the manufacturing of billions of solar panels, and the pollution from manufacturing billions of chemical storage batteries, and the environmental pollution of a huge battery dump (like in WilkesBarre PA EPA SuperFund ecological disaster site) disposal of millions of damaged, depleted batteries chemicals, (sulfuric acid, nickle cadmium, nickle hydride ... etc ...)

Think small so each wagon has its own motor, no big loco. For a long heavy rail coal train you need six locos but for something shorter and lighter do you need locos at all other than a control cab? UK uses EMUs for passengers use the same concept.

Why do you need batteries?

Cheerio John
 
I'll just stick to burning coal for the power to drive my electric trains, that I know will always be dependable. Or use diesel locomotives as an alternative. This "Green" thing going around is a farse and is impractical with our dwindling resources, especially the exotic metals used for this "Green" ideas of today.
 
Think of the cost of retofitting 3.5 million freight cars with solar panels ... or totally replacing 3.5 million railcars ... the green idea is just silly, and way too expensive ... RR's do not have this money ... and are in it for the short-haul ... making enough money per quarter, to justify operations ... and cutting costs in every location
 
40 foot container 8 foot wide gives room for quite a few panels. Currently the output per panel is 250 watts so 320 square feet of solar should fit 16 panels gives 2kw per ISO container, is that sufficient to move one wagon? 100 wagons gives 200 kw that might be enough to make make it work.

Cheerio John

Just for reference, a standard American locomotive (also built for other countries) outputs 3.3 MW. I realize you're talking about something much smaller, but 2 KW- approximately 3 hp- is not going to move much.

Mezzoprezzo might be on to something.
 
Just for reference, a standard American locomotive (also built for other countries) outputs 3.3 MW. I realize you're talking about something much smaller, but 2 KW- approximately 3 hp- is not going to move much.

Mezzoprezzo might be on to something.

The question is given the right grades is it enough?

Cheerio John
 
Just for the sake of discussing... :D.

The power rating of a common European freight electric, like the Bombardier TRAXX (a strict relative to NJT ALP-46s), is approximately 5.6 MW.

If 320 square feet of solar panels provide 2 kW, providing power for a single locomotive will require 5,600/2*320 = 896,000 square feet of solar panels. A trackside strip 100 feet wide and approx. 1,7 miles long could provide power for one loco, but there are also losses to be taken into account, so I think the actual number of panels should be higher.

The Black Mesa and Lake Powell RR would be an interesting "test-bed" for this technology :D.

Of course, some storage system would be required for night operations :D.
 
Just for the sake of discussing... :D.

The power rating of a common European freight electric, like the Bombardier TRAXX (a strict relative to NJT ALP-46s), is approximately 5.6 MW.

If 320 square feet of solar panels provide 2 kW, providing power for a single locomotive will require 5,600/2*320 = 896,000 square feet of solar panels. A trackside strip 100 feet wide and approx. 1,7 miles long could provide power for one loco, but there are also losses to be taken into account, so I think the actual number of panels should be higher.

The Black Mesa and Lake Powell RR would be an interesting "test-bed" for this technology :D.

Of course, some storage system would be required for night operations :D.

But how many wagons can that loco pull at say 30-50km/h?

Cheerio John
 
I have been unable to retrieve the full performance data: I only have been able to find some data with a quick search on the Internet: according to official documents, on an almost flat track (gradient < 0,5%) the loco can pull a 1,600-ton (metric tons; approx. 1760 short tons) freight at 100 kph.

This equals to 18 wagons (if these are heavy types like coil carriers) or more (in case of lighter types, such as autoracks). Take into account we are speaking of Euro rolling stock: the heaviest wagons weigh 88 metric tons (approx. 97 short tons).

Tractive effort at 100 kph should be approx. equal to 200 kN: at 30 to 50 kph, the loco should be able to use its max. TE, which is approx. equal 300 kN: let's say it could pull 50% more wagons.
 
I have been unable to retrieve the full performance data: I only have been able to find some data with a quick search on the Internet: according to official documents, on an almost flat track (gradient < 0,5%) the loco can pull a 1,600-ton (metric tons; approx. 1760 short tons) freight at 100 kph.

This equals to 18 wagons (if these are heavy types like coil carriers) or more (in case of lighter types, such as autoracks). Take into account we are speaking of Euro rolling stock: the heaviest wagons weigh 88 metric tons (approx. 97 short tons).

Tractive effort at 100 kph should be approx. equal to 200 kN: at 30 to 50 kph, the loco should be able to use its max. TE, which is approx. equal 300 kN: let's say it could pull 50% more wagons.

Back to the drawing board.

Thanks John
 
This 2011 article might be interesting.

If I remember correctly, there was a project about the installation of solar panels between the rails. Theoretically, this arrangement should be able to generate (assuming 4' wide solar panels) 2kW every 80 feet, i.e. ~132 kW per mile. There are, however, a pair of strong weak points: first, solar panels work best when they are tilted at 45° with respect to the ground; second, electric trains also leak oil and grease - even though less than Diesels -and dirty panels will lose much efficiency.
 
Why not just electrify the route. Put pantographs on the engines and you can use any thing that will generate power and feed power back into the circuit.
 
Why not just electrify the route. Put pantographs on the engines and you can use any thing that will generate power and feed power back into the circuit.


Cost you need a certain amount of traffic to justify the up front costs of electrification. Also we are talking about very long distances in remote locations the overhead wire might well disappear.

Cheerio John
 
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