Simulators - Low Retention Rate

Trainz is very different, if only because there are so many fields that can be explored. There's route building prototypical or fantasy, creating realistic operated sessions, or just fun ones, driving more or less realistic and of course content creation.
Personally I see trainz more or less as the model railroad I don't have room for at home anymore. :hehe:

So one day you're in the mood for driving, another day you descide to finally start creating that building, locomotive, bridge, the list goes on, that you couldn't find elswhere. Some day you see a nice realistic station layout in a railway magazine and poof, drop down a baseboard and see if it works as expected. In other words, if you ask me; trainz, never a dull moment.

Honestly I can't think of any other 'game' that has so many various roads you can follow and where you can expand your experience in any way you like, only restricted by your own imagination.

Jan

Amen to that, Jan. Like you, Trainz has proven an adequate replacement of the model RR I have neither space or money or time to build. It is unstable enough to recreate frustration levels of the hobby, like when your benchwork looks like something out of Tim Burton film. And yet, it allows us to do more than we could with scale models. I am currently building a line that runs from Aurora IL east into Chicago, then follows the C&NW line along Lake Michigan into Milwaukee WI. To do that, even in N scale, would require an auditorium!

And like you said, we can do whatever we choose in Trainz, whether it's laying track, creating a new building or scenery piece, or drive a train. And with the latter option, we can choose to run on any of hundreds of routes available to us. Even modelers involved in RR clubs don't have THOSE kinds of options.

For many of us, we may never get to that operating part of things. Between Trainz meltdowns (I lost the aforementioned route after almost a year of work) and constantly new content by masters like davesnow and Euphod, some routes will never be finished. That is why to me Trainz is nowhere close to a game. And I growl at anyone who calls it such, just as I would do when someone called my model trains "toys" or "cute." It is a part of a hobby, one that never fades with time like so other trivial pursuits.

Ron
 
I am not proposing that Trainz is presently deficient in any way, although there may be some. My focus is the possible reduction in development for the more technical aspects of the program. Could this happen if N3v makes a decision to focus more resources on improving the gaming functions, whatever they may be or become?

I agree that Trainz today offers a myriad of functions that allow the creation of almost all rail operations given time and talent. However, it is those various options that raise the bar for the person seeking immersion in a railroad but not caring to add anything to a route or scenario. Would a simple interface that restricts the customer seeking a rail based challenge to only those functions appropriate to running a scenario be best? With their own forum space the initial steps for enjoying the program could be clarified as needed.

The program, as it is today, would be for those who want a full and complex simulator that can be extensively modified and enhanced. With two different products, and prices, the two areas are apart but with a purchase available for a game type who may want to explore the "finer points".
 
This has been a very interesting discussion.

Personally, I have always seen my railway/railroad modelling as a creative art form with my main interest, in over 40 years pre-Trainz, being the creation of a realistic scenic setting, with much less interest in the 'running trains' aspect. Trainz gives me the opportunity to follow this interest, and to create new models easily and without the mess and physical contortions mentioned by a previous contributor. In addition, any model created can be used repeatedly without spending time making identical copies. I suppose this attitude is the reason for the number of routes/layouts which I've begun and never finished. As long as pottering around creating little scenic areas makes me happy, all is well. In fact, I would probably be quite happy creating (say) a one-board village with no piece of track anywhere to be seen! (That could well be my next project, just seeing how many of my own buildings I can use.)

"Quot homines, tot sentientiae" as Terence said many years ago. (Every man has his own opinion.)

Ray
 
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I'll weight in on this discussion. I, myself am a former model railroader and find this new virtual railroading a perfect balance between the physical and the imagined models of railroading. I can still remember artistic drawings of "in cab" views in magazines of the layouts we built. Lionel came out with RailView I think and although cool it didn't have the feel of operating the locomotive. Now not only can we operate a locomotive from the cab but we can now build the impossible layouts and see them from any angle. For a model railroader this is a dream come true in my humble opinion. With access to the DLS it is almost like being turned loose in your favorite hobby shop with an unlimited credit card in hand and not having to build all the kits you walk out with. Also with with graphic editing software you can exercise your kit bashing skills with assets.

Yes, This is a very enjoyable hobby. I call this a hobby because it involves more that just passively sitting and adding things with no effort. This hobby requires you to learn new skills and apply them to create your masterpiece. Also this community reminds me of my old local model railroad club that would go to different members homes and help build members layouts with the skills they had. So many people here offer there help to newbies, like myself, make this into a real hobby and not just a game.

In closing all I can say is thank you to both Trainz for bringing model railroading into the 21st century and also the community for creating new assets and helping all of us when we need help.

Dave
 
It's nothing new... The various MS Flight Simulators had no real goal until some clever third party people dreamt up programmes like Airliner Pilot or FS Passengers, so it actually mattered whether you landed or crashed at the end of the flight. Railworks has tried career scenarios but these seem to have largely died a death because, a. The concept was aimed at their Facebook kiddie audience and was a point scoring w...y waving exercise, not a progression through the ranks. b. It seems some aforementioned FB kiddies were cheating, achieving impossible scores. And c. RSC jealously guard the tools to make career scenarios so that only themselves or favoured creators have access, not the great unwashed user base.

I do recall at one time Trainz was going to include a boss mode, but the departure of Greg Lane and John Banks plus maybe a dose of real world programming/economic reality put paid to that.

I still maintain Trainz could be the all time best train sim, if the devs got on and created a proper UI timetable/activity editor, similar to the excellent one in MSTS or the not so excellent one in Railworks, the latter largely hampered by the poor AI. That could then be linked to some sort of career mode (not on line achievements) giving considerably more purpose than just running from A to B.
 
Adding a career mode would turn it into a game. I don't want it to be a game. If they were to implement that as a add-on, it would be ok, but don't let it affect the rest of what we have. As it is now, Trainz is so far ahead of any other, with what we can with it, driving, building, editing and such. That is why my MSTS disks are on the shelf some where and I have no intention of ever loading it again.
 
I discovered this game about the time TZ09 came out. My wife got me a 2007 trail version. As you can see I have progressed to 12. Most games I have gotten over the years are under the dust in the bookcase. not this one I am in it every day, and I think its because it has a steep learning curve. Every route I build I learn a new thing about the game and I enjoy the Content Manager with the ability to maintain My own database. Thank you N3V....
 
hminky;964160]Most people in the "train modeling" universe, solid or virtual, aren't really interest in "railroading operations",at least get the quote right. The sims haven't died because people are interested in trains. The same reason "solid modeling" hasn't died. Most "model train" people look at you as if you had leprosy if you mention operations.

What makes you think nobody runs operations like a real railroad? I run on Montana with dispatchers and everything thing. We have engineers tell us there location every once and a while. And even when I am on umr once and a while I do this. I think sense multiplayer running offical runs has increased well for me and running my sessions anyhow.
 
Getting back to the sessions thing, sure building your own session will mean you already know the ending

Yes, this was practice in the past. Auran/N3v support the short sessions about two, three hours ( remember the competition in last year). The intention of the short sessions is to cover/hide the bad bahaviour of AI trains. But things are become changing. By using Quick drive or Quick portal manager you can put in the additional trains and new tasks, which change the primary purpose of the session. . We have now the very long route ECML, where you need much more time to reach Newcastle, so we must make the break and save the session. And the other new routes are longer too. Obviously we and they must change approach to the session, session grow up in live and time unlimited.
 
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Adding a career mode would turn it into a game.

Not necessarily. Have you seen how FS Passengers approaches this aspect? Going back a few years and probably not that well known outside a select group in the UK, there was a train sim called Train Driver 3 (it was actually one of the first proper programmes with cab view and sound). One of the features was that it kept track of your total mileage driven, any infractions such as SPAD's or speeding, timekeeping on a run etc. These were constantly recalculated to give a rolling percentage of how well your "career" was advancing. It didn't impact on the simulation aspect and it didn't make it feel like just a game. Unfortunately Railworks has clouded the sky somewhat with what they think a career mode should be, which is not the paradigm most sim users aspire to.
 
The primary problem I have with RSC's career mode is that it forces me to drive against what I think is a safe approach to the operation, but then I have no real-life experience as a driver or rail road employee to really base that oppinion on- just what I've read and seen via cab-ride videos (makes me think of Cole Trickle from 'Days of Thunder'..."I can drive NASCAR, I watch ESPN"). I try to sim drive the way I think I should, which is evolving over time as I learn more. The career mode just promoted bad habits, like rushing over switches in yards, max posted speed in yards regardless of how busy the yard is, bad braking (I imagine that braking in any sim is difficult without the sensation of slowing as we're forced to rely only on visual clues) and so on-- for me, as a beginner, that wasn't appealing as I'm trying to learn 'best' ways of driving lol.

What I am really enjoying about Trainz is that it can feel more busy. I can load up East Kentucky and run coal to my hearts content, or mix it up and muck about on Niddertalbahn running passengers to all stops. If I want close to home I can load up BC Rails, tune into the live radio feed from that sub and drive freight in longgggg consists like they do in real life. I suppose, in the end, its how complex you expect a sim to be and find Trainz a great balance with choice-- I can DCC if I'm just home from shift and want to relax, or can cab drive if I'm in the mood. Best of all worlds to my mind, and like any pc sim has its warts, but an excellent sim in my limited oppinion :)
 
Have you seen how FS Passengers approaches this aspect?

FS Passengers, FS Captain, and Air Hauler are all prime examples of how a 'career mode' can be implemented, and actually enhance a simulator. Also virtual airlines.

In fact, the only time I ever start a flight without AH or FS Cap running is when I'm trying a new airframe out and want a feel for how it handles on take-off and landing.
 
I would like Auran/NV3 to create 64-bit version of a new vehicle simulator that allows you to drive motor vehicles, drive watercraft, fly aircraft, drive trains, etc. The best feature of Trainz is the Surveyor.
 
Gamers and Simmers are two different critters.
A gamer needs ooh and aah graphics and more importantly, levels and cheat codes. If not, they get bored quick. Hand them a 300 page manual to actually learn to fly, for example, and the game will hit the trash within hours. Gamepad or no go for them.
A simmer wants that 300 page manual to make it as real as possible, along with the ability to make his own "levels".*
With the push to ooh and aah, game producers are pushing the simmer off in favor of gamers. A new market with more revenue.*
Hate to say it but I do see it with Trainz. A push for graphics. Can't blame them since the first review of anything is graphics. RW went with their version of a "campaign mode" to give users a goal and sense of accomplishment. Not much use for a simmer but gamers love it.*
Let's face it, trains are a niche market in software. Won't get much stir unless you put cannons on them to attract the gamer. Do that, you lose the simmer who does like trains.
As far as losing retention, why should I invest more in hardware to run the latest program that does the exact same as the last releases with just better graphics as the caveat? Fix older content that now shows errors but ran great in the last version, even though the two use the same kuid and are included? When I slap together my little routes, I pay no attention to the old CN GP9s or the latest payware creations. I'm still amazed I catch a red and see a train breeze by, didn't stop me there last time I ran the route.*
I hope the Sim providers don't bow down to attract the gamers. They'll never appreciate the hobby and be bored quick. If I have to plug in a gamepad, I'll put the game in the trash. I could sever my internet connection with one version of Trainz and amuse myself for years. I LIKE building my own routes, a gamer wants to hit a button and download one. Even a graphically superior route will bore him quick, a well designed one will amuse me for days.

Dave......
 
Gamers and Simmers are two different critters.
A gamer needs ooh and aah graphics and more importantly, levels and cheat codes... (shortened for the sake of it already exists above) ...Even a graphically superior route will bore him quick, a well designed one will amuse me for days.

Dave......

Well said. We sim enthusiasts completely enjoy sims just as they are. Broken content and all. The people that want a Train "game", there are choices you have to fulfill your thrills.


"I can only lead you to the door, you have to be the one to decide to go through."
 
Adding a career mode would turn it into a game. I don't want it to be a game

I agree with this. Career may harm simulation.
I think that we need a little more contents, some more purpose, in the driving mode. Conection between waybill and scores would be interesting. We now hauling cargo, munually or AI, but we don't know what is going on the route, where the needs are, how much products industry still need. Informations when stock become cricital would be useful too.
 
Gamers and Simmers are two different critters.
A gamer needs ooh and aah graphics and more importantly, levels and cheat codes. If not, they get bored quick. Hand them a 300 page manual to actually learn to fly, for example, and the game will hit the trash within hours. Gamepad or no go for them.

...snip...

the game in the trash. I could sever my internet connection with one version of Trainz and amuse myself for years. I LIKE building my own routes, a gamer wants to hit a button and download one. Even a graphically superior route will bore him quick, a well designed one will amuse me for days.

Dave......

Bingo, exactly.
 
But if N3v decides to spend their money making changes to to add game-like features that subtract from the simulation side that spells trouble. For me the allocation of resources is the greatest issue. I would not be upset if N3V was able to offer a limited version complete with scoreboards, prizes, and applause for a game product. There is no reason I can see that tacking on game stuff and dumbing down a version should do any harm. I feel this way because it will bring in more revenue that eventually provides funds for continued staffing and updates in the simulation area which provides the base for the game.

The problems arise if Trainz looks at RailWorks and decides they want a piece of the gamer market and decide to copy the RaiulWorks model. That model appears to be a complete capitulation to the game world with little attention to the several faults that make the simulation part less than ideal.

I am used to interacting with software vendors when I had to work for a living. Then we had a say in the features of the programs as well as proper bug reporting and management. Today the vendors have gone into their rabbit holes and have almost no interaction with the customers. The unfortunate result is a paranoia about where the product may go. Given the larger customer base, revenue, etc. existing an Trainz customer can only speculate and rationalize that N3v may move to the cheaper-to-support game world. Thus you will see periodic bursts of frustration and fear from the customers but no attempt by the vendor to manage those feelings.
 
They offered "compatibility" mode in 2010, maybe they could offer a game mode to stand next the Trainz we all love.
 
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