MTH_ELECTRIC_TRAINS
7 Year Trainz Vet
Dude, you do realize that game "Dark Reign" is from 1997 right? Also, their website has not been updated since 2012.
Should N3V consign Trainz to the public domain?
- Thread starter robd
- Start date
Dude, you do realize that game "Dark Reign" is from 1997 right? Also, their website has not been updated since 2012.
If it's on the corporate home page then it must be true.
As a person who has spent 10 years writing tools for Trainz I am horrified at any suggestion to make the game open source.
Doesn't any one have the right to copyright or intellectual property any more?
Auran/N3V have invested heavily in Trainz and they are entitled to keep the copyright and intellectual property to themselves.. not let it free to be messed around with by half baked programmers at their own personal whim.
I agree that there are some good examples of open source development BUT there are many more better examples of commercial software that has been developed quicker and better than the open source examples of similar types. Most reputable developers have no intention of sharing their programming code.. Guess what? it's called "commmercial advantage" and is part of the way to make money out of what we do.
Using my own tools as examples. Over the last 10 years, I have spent 1000's of hours (yes 1000s) researching file formats, graphics code, shaders, and with the help of N3V have managed to produce some tools that can help content creators and repairers. I do it because I am blessed (or cursed) with an in-built need to know how things work. Hence I have just figured out FBX decoding and creation. SO if you think I am going to share my code.. forget it.. it's mine and that's all there is to it. Thus I also think N3V have every right to keep their code as their own intellectual property and not share it with anyone....
Additionally I am also very irritated by the many software download sites that have versions of my tools on them without my permission.. use them at your own risk... Unfortunately they exist without scruples, and we have to put up with them and the junk that they add to the downloads.
For those who think Trainz is going in the wrong direction developmentally, the choice is simple.. walk away QUIETLY.. and don't annoy the rest of us who are still having fun.
These people that try to leave this forum with a big bang are so annoying, why not just slide quietly under the door..
Doesn't any one have the right to copyright or intellectual property any more?
Auran/N3V have invested heavily in Trainz and they are entitled to keep the copyright and intellectual property to themselves.. not let it free to be messed around with by half baked programmers at their own personal whim.
I agree that there are some good examples of open source development BUT there are many more better examples of commercial software that has been developed quicker and better than the open source examples of similar types. Most reputable developers have no intention of sharing their programming code.. Guess what? it's called "commmercial advantage" and is part of the way to make money out of what we do.
Using my own tools as examples. Over the last 10 years, I have spent 1000's of hours (yes 1000s) researching file formats, graphics code, shaders, and with the help of N3V have managed to produce some tools that can help content creators and repairers. I do it because I am blessed (or cursed) with an in-built need to know how things work. Hence I have just figured out FBX decoding and creation. SO if you think I am going to share my code.. forget it.. it's mine and that's all there is to it. Thus I also think N3V have every right to keep their code as their own intellectual property and not share it with anyone....
Additionally I am also very irritated by the many software download sites that have versions of my tools on them without my permission.. use them at your own risk... Unfortunately they exist without scruples, and we have to put up with them and the junk that they add to the downloads.
For those who think Trainz is going in the wrong direction developmentally, the choice is simple.. walk away QUIETLY.. and don't annoy the rest of us who are still having fun.
These people that try to leave this forum with a big bang are so annoying, why not just slide quietly under the door..
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BuilderBob
New member
It's one of the possible outcomes of 'escalation of commitment', or the sunk cost fallacy. People will continue to 'invest' in a proposition even though a rational evaluation makes it clear that there are decreasing or negative returns. "The actor maintains behaviors that are irrational, but align with previous decisions and actions" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escalation_of_commitment ).
In this case the investment is emotional, so when the realisation finally comes that the 'costs' are sunk and not recoverable there is an outburst of anger. The lashing out is typically directed at the object, not at their own behaviour, because recognising that would be to admit their irrationality. The result is that the accusations and blaming are often just as irrational as the original behaviour. That's why some of the most vocal departures are from the oldest supporters.
'walk away QUIETLY' isn't going to happen for someone who doesn't want to acknowledge that they got sucked in by their own attempts to generate value from something after it had become obvious that they weren't going to be able to do it.
BuilderBob
New member
Economists had assumed rational behaviour because of a presumption that real behaviour would be too difficult to model. The latest thinking is that it is possible to incorporate 'psychologically realistic' behaviour (which is sometimes irrational in the traditional sense) into economic theory in a way that leads to useful outcomes - that is, predictions from the modelling which can be more closely reconciled to real-world behaviour than the earlier, simpler models.
In regard to the opening poster to this thread stating as he did to make a "big bang" on leaving I do not feel will be the case. My thoughts are that other factors may have been involved and I would expect to still see him around on this forum and In that why not.
Obviously many found his remarks disrespectful, unrealistic, extraordinary and in that anyone can refer to his statements in anyway they see fit. However, he has a point of view and is entitled to state that i would hope without others wishing, living in hope or believing he will be no longer on the forum. Surely, respect for the views of other is the basis of free thinking and that should be at the core of everyone's belief.
In regard to intellectual theft by way of persons claiming, copying or redistributing items made freely available on social media that sadly is "now the way of the world". Social media sites such as Twitter, Facebook and WhatsApp etc survive by people copying, re-tweeting the thoughts, images and postings of others. That ever growing social behaviour now pervades all sections of society with many now viewing those actions as "normal" even when others feel it invades their intellectual rights.
In the above unless you have the financial resources of Microsoft, Google, Apple or Amazon then protest is the only action open to those who are affected as legal action is in unrealistic especially in regard to content placed on such places as the Download Station. To put it bluntly, if you do not wish your creations claimed by others, changed and/or redistributed without your consent then do not place your cherished items outside your own direct control.
Bill
Obviously many found his remarks disrespectful, unrealistic, extraordinary and in that anyone can refer to his statements in anyway they see fit. However, he has a point of view and is entitled to state that i would hope without others wishing, living in hope or believing he will be no longer on the forum. Surely, respect for the views of other is the basis of free thinking and that should be at the core of everyone's belief.
In regard to intellectual theft by way of persons claiming, copying or redistributing items made freely available on social media that sadly is "now the way of the world". Social media sites such as Twitter, Facebook and WhatsApp etc survive by people copying, re-tweeting the thoughts, images and postings of others. That ever growing social behaviour now pervades all sections of society with many now viewing those actions as "normal" even when others feel it invades their intellectual rights.
In the above unless you have the financial resources of Microsoft, Google, Apple or Amazon then protest is the only action open to those who are affected as legal action is in unrealistic especially in regard to content placed on such places as the Download Station. To put it bluntly, if you do not wish your creations claimed by others, changed and/or redistributed without your consent then do not place your cherished items outside your own direct control.
Bill
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Robd can speak for himself but he did apologise in the original post for his rant. I assume it was just an expression of his frustration.
I frequently have to go back into TS12 SP1 and that version, (61388), likes to go off and revalidate 100's of assets for no obvious reason. While it does that, Trainz becomes unresponsive for long periods of time. If I had a choice, I'd dump TS12 in favour of TANE. And, before anyone tells me to reload the original TS12, that version drove me crazy because Cab Mode never worked properly.
BuilderBob's post (#45) was fascinating and I had to read it several times before I realised I could easily be one of those he described. I hope I don't go out with a "big bang". Mine would more likely be a dummy spit which is probably the same thing.
I frequently have to go back into TS12 SP1 and that version, (61388), likes to go off and revalidate 100's of assets for no obvious reason. While it does that, Trainz becomes unresponsive for long periods of time. If I had a choice, I'd dump TS12 in favour of TANE. And, before anyone tells me to reload the original TS12, that version drove me crazy because Cab Mode never worked properly.
BuilderBob's post (#45) was fascinating and I had to read it several times before I realised I could easily be one of those he described. I hope I don't go out with a "big bang". Mine would more likely be a dummy spit which is probably the same thing.
Quite interesting, but I have never had this feeling with T:ANE, in spite of all the problems and fuss. I have had this sinking feeling after investing a rather large sum in third-party routes and associate payware, only to discover that they are locked down garbage that can't be fixed.
Perhaps the real solution is that N3V demand that all assets used beyond their built-ins be public domain?
That'll stir the pot...
That is one of the reasons why I don't get freeware or payware from 3rd party sites.
Perhaps the real solution is that N3V demand that all assets used beyond their built-ins be public domain?
That'll stir the pot...
It certainly would "stir the pot" but it would be totally unenforceable. The DLS is the closest we will probably get to public domain.
Oh, I know, but I have thought that it would be interesting to know if anyone has actually attempted route generation in an open source environment such as Bitbucket, ProjectLocker, CloudForge, GitHub, or Sourceforge. Such use would involve sharing meshes and other items often held close to the chest in an commons license agreement.
Robd can speak for himself but he did apologise in the original post for his rant. I assume it was just an expression of his frustration.
I frequently have to go back into TS12 SP1 and that version, (61388), likes to go off and revalidate 100's of assets for no obvious reason. While it does that, Trainz becomes unresponsive for long periods of time. If I had a choice, I'd dump TS12 in favour of TANE. And, before anyone tells me to reload the original TS12, that version drove me crazy because Cab Mode never worked properly.
BuilderBob's post (#45) was fascinating and I had to read it several times before I realised I could easily be one of those he described. I hope I don't go out with a "big bang". Mine would more likely be a dummy spit which is probably the same thing.
Sometimes I will get rid of my frustrations by writing a "big bang" type of post, but not actually sending it. It goes a long way towards getting the anger out of my system.
Mick
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Here, here!
I have been invested in a very large music production software package from up north (so large that updates are sent on 250 GB hard drives). I started in 1998 and have spent er..., well, let's say "untold" amounts of money upgrading year after year. To buy in today, one would have to fork over about $500 just to get the whole package; if you want the premium version, prepare to pay more like $800.
And yet, since 1998 I have been reporting the same bugs in the base engine. There are some quirky things that just frustrate me, simply because I know the software too well, and expect even more. I have a "pocketful" of workarounds that I pull out and apply from time to time, when the software starts acting stupidly.
However, the end product worth not only every penny, but the overblown frustration as well (which is exactly what it is). That's why I stay in the game.
I agree with staying with an irritating product because the final result is usually rewarding. TANE is similar for me. I have bought very little so dollars are not my issue. However, it is a major hobby and my time has value, at least to me. I have disagreed with the management of the product but they are still in business (thankfully), so what do I know. Software is imperfect since not only does it rely on "home" computers, there is the need to have an operating system to avoid every program having to deal technically with the computer's components - displays, memory, ethernet, etc. Thus imperfections in that element are seen as TANE errors in some cases. Then there is software by committee. To shorten the conception-to-market cycle many programmers write their code to interface, in a "standard" way with other software components to arrive at the final program. This complex structure makes for a big management problem/challenge/PTA.
I wonder if the next TS18 product will allow the unusual additional element - software participation in this software arena. Will scripts and rules made by almost anyone who wants to try, be allowed? Reading the thread it seems that some of the issues involve those elements. Scripts and rules that work on most PCs may be erratic on a few others. N3V shies away from this area and the very high people cost of policing these outside elements which all-to-often are poorly documented at best. Should the new product accept them, but require documentation and proper attention to the rules of the N3V provided API interfaces? I hope so, but only if these gems work and are understandable.
Dick
I wonder if the next TS18 product will allow the unusual additional element - software participation in this software arena. Will scripts and rules made by almost anyone who wants to try, be allowed? Reading the thread it seems that some of the issues involve those elements. Scripts and rules that work on most PCs may be erratic on a few others. N3V shies away from this area and the very high people cost of policing these outside elements which all-to-often are poorly documented at best. Should the new product accept them, but require documentation and proper attention to the rules of the N3V provided API interfaces? I hope so, but only if these gems work and are understandable.
Dick
Whenever I want a break from route building there are plenty of other things to do including (and Bill will like this one) a rather neat ATC programme on the Android. I haven't killed anyone... yet. But it's quite zen and engages your brain in spatial awareness and forward planning.