Repair my content or you may lose it!?

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Approximately how long will it be before all existing DLS content has been error-checked?

Will creators whose assets don't need repair, also get an advisory e-mail to let them know their content has been checked and found to be OK?

Can repaired assets retain the same trainz-build number as the originals? If the build number has to be increased, will that cause problems for users who still prefer the older versions of Trainz?

 

[paulzmay]

@NikkiA - Perfect. Just about what my brain was trying to get round to thinking.

@D-R - I'm pretty sure that those with older builds can use ftp to get at previous versions of content. If this isn't practical, then you have a good point. Some of the original creators being asked to fix content may not have anything after TRS06, and some may be reluctant to lock users of earlier versions out of their content. I'd be very disappointed if this led to a reluctance to fix content.

Paul

 

[WindWalkr]

Approximately how long will it be before all existing DLS content has been error-checked?

It's hard to say. We'd like to get the process over and done with as soon as possible, but we're well aware that it's time consuming and we don't want to approach it with excessive haste.

Will creators whose assets don't need repair, also get an advisory e-mail to let them know their content has been checked and found to be OK?

No. We will, however, publicly announce when the DLS reaches 100% error-free. It's reasonable to expect that the process will never truly end, as we are always working to improve our error checking mechanisms, but the major milestone will be when the DLS is first fully cleaned according to the current version of the tools.

Can repaired assets retain the same trainz-build number as the originals? If the build number has to be increased, will that cause problems for users who still prefer the older versions of Trainz?

Repaired assets must meet the current upload criteria. As usual, if a user has a version of Trainz older than the content version, they will not be able to download it.

kind regards,

chris

 

[bird_d00]

Repaired assets must meet the current upload criteria. As usual, if a user has a version of Trainz older than the content version, they will not be able to download it.

kind regards,

chris

Chris you are on very dangerous ground here. If a user is still active they can (and maybe will) still update their assets on external websites. But you propose to demand that other people will use their (the original creator's) kuid to create new "repaired" assets on the DLS over which the original creator will have no control.

Quite apart from the legal aspects of passing yourself off as someone you are not, it defeats the whole object of the DLS surely to have different versions but with the same KUID and version number on different sites.

We already see this with some of Angelah's assets where the TPR version (the current & official version) is different from the DLS version but with the same version number. Much more of this sort of thing and the DLS will quickly become redundant.

Dave Bird

 

[paulhobbs]

Chris you are on very dangerous ground here. If a user is still active they can (and maybe will) still update their assets on external websites. But you propose to demand that other people will use their (the original creator's) kuid to create new "repaired" assets on the DLS over which the original creator will have no control.

The original author still has control as he/she can upload another version to the DLS.

Quite apart from the legal aspects of passing yourself off as someone you are not, it defeats the whole object of the DLS surely to have different versions but with the same KUID and version number on different sites.

Of course the new assets will retain the orginal kuid, if they didn't how will a route be able to find it as a dependency?

We already see this with some of Angelah's assets where the TPR version (the current & official version) is different from the DLS version but with the same version number. Much more of this sort of thing and the DLS will quickly become redundant.

That shouldn't happen and that is a mistake by the author - it's up to them to get the version control right.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't as usual. I thought a lot of people were moaning about busted assets on the DLS (or did I dream it?)

Paul

 

[bird_d00]

The original author still has control as he/she can upload another version to the DLS.

Of course the new assets will retain the orginal kuid, if they didn't how will a route be able to find it as a dependency?

Paul

Paul,
You missed the point - if the author does not have a supported version of Trainz they CAN'T upload an updated version to the DLS even if they wanted to.

It isn't the original author's problem that a route can't find his OFFICIAL update because it isn't on the DLS. It doesn't suddenly make it alright to create an unauthorized version without permission.

Dave Bird

 

[WindWalkr]

.. you propose to demand that other people will use their (the original creator's) kuid to create new "repaired" assets on the DLS over which the original creator will have no control.

Well firstly, we demand nothing.

Secondly, KUIDs are identification numbers and are not property.

Third, the original creator's level of control over the repaired content is no different from their level of control over the current version of the content.

Quite apart from the legal aspects of passing yourself off as someone you are not..

Nobody is suggesting that anybody do that.

.. it defeats the whole object of the DLS surely to have different versions but with the same KUID and version number on different sites.

We can't control what users place on other sites or store on their own PCs. We can determine what the 'official' version of the content is, and that is defined as whatever's on the DLS.

We already see this with some of Angelah's assets where the TPR version (the current & official version) is different from the DLS version but with the same version number. Much more of this sort of thing and the DLS will quickly become redundant.

From our perspective, this is a step towards solving this issue. At the current time, there's a reasonable argument that the level of faults in DLS content makes it less effective as an authoritative content source. Once the faults are fixed, there is substantially less reason for people to use modified versions of the content, so the DLS concept is strengthened.

kind regards,

chris

 

[StorkNest]

Might be worth doing to create a new forum area for this called Updating DLS Content perhaps with sub-forums for specific areas then people can follow discussion on what others are doing and notices there can be posted.

I can handle the repairs without a problem, the issue would be updating them under your kuid, perhaps helpdesk can assist there. Anyone know of a process?

Thanks John

This can be done currently one of two ways.
After you fix an asset you either.
1 - pack it in a CDP that retains the original KUID.
2 - Open for Edit, copy the folder somewhere outside Trainz, manually update the KUID in the config.txt file, Import Content with the new KUID, pack the CDP retaining the updated KUID of the creator.

A couple of questions for N3V...

What about older routes containing broken dependencies? After all other content is fixed, do routes which still have broken dependencies stay or go?

What will be the build number of corrected assets? Will it remain as per the original broken asset or will it be upped to 2.6 minimum?

Andy...

Dermmy’s point is also valid, I would go with the lowest build number required using 2.4 as minimum. Usually I only update a build number if I did something that requires it.
If I have to add a mesh-table to an asset with build 1.3 for example, I will change it to 2.4.
But if all I do is fix a category-region entry from USA to US I do not change the number.

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Dermmy’s point is also valid, I would go with the lowest build number required using 2.4 as minimum. Usually I only update a build number if I did something that requires it.

I personally think the build number should stay as it was in the original assets, but Windwalkr has already stated that this isn't going to happen. Fixed assets, no matter how old, will need to be "upgraded" to currently supported trainz-build numbers whether customers like it or not.

If I have to add a mesh-table to an asset with build 1.3 for example, I will change it to 2.4. But if all I do is fix a category-region entry from USA to US I do not change the number.

Judging by the configs of some of the built-in content in TS2010, you may not need to increase the build number even if you add a feature from a more recent build. I recall seeing several industry-enabled 1.3 and 1.5 assets which I always thought was a trainz 2.0 innovation. Apparently that doesn't cause an error! On the other hand, I was told in another recent thread that Auran doesn't recommend changes as trivial as category-region in the built-in content. I find it hard to follow the logic in light of what I've seen.

 

[Dermmy]

The Build Number thing worries me a bit.

Routes on the DLS (or wherever) which are currently not broken in any way will become broken as the asset database becomes updated. A Trainzbuild 2.4 (or whatever) route will not load an updated asset with Tb 3.3.

In the process of repairing content - a laudable goal - almost every route, session and scenario made for Trainz to date will cease to operate.

Of course the route itself can be updated - I am in the process of updating my old East Kentucky 2 route to something closer to TS2010 standards, but the process is going to take almost 12 months. True, the route is also expanded, but just re-doing the part of the route that was EK2 took over 6 months.

Updating the route build number by simply importing to 2010 and saving is a 10 second fix, but there seems little point in not improving the route as it is updated. The 10-second fix will simply result in a huge number of TS2010 Trainzbuild 3.3 routes which fail to take any advantage whatsoever of the potential of TS2010 - sort of like running a restored Morris Minor on a Formula 1 track: more or less pointless.

To produce a crop of worth-while TS2010 routes is going to take years, in the meantime folks are going to be downloading and installing 'updated' routes with Trainzbuild 3.3 tags which they will assume are cutting-edge productions, but all they will get is a swag of routes many of which were less than impressive in the version for which they were originally built and which fail to exploit any of the potential offered in the newer version of the sim. Not, I would have thought, the desired outcome...

Andy

 

[johnwhelan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnwhelan
I can handle the repairs without a problem, the issue would be updating them under your kuid, perhaps helpdesk can assist there. Anyone know of a process?

Thanks John




This can be done currently one of two ways.
After you fix an asset you either.
1 - pack it in a CDP that retains the original KUID.
2 - Open for Edit, copy the folder somewhere outside Trainz, manually update the KUID in the config.txt file, Import Content with the new KUID, pack the CDP retaining the updated KUID of the creator.

I meant to get the new version onto the DLS with the updated version number in the kuid. This is a N3V permission thing nothing else.

Cheerio John

 

[WindWalkr]

A Trainzbuild 2.4 (or whatever) route will not load an updated asset with Tb 3.3.

Yes it will.

chris

 

[paulzmay]

...unless you are trying to load it in TRS04.

The issue will then be that TRS04 users who still have DLS access will have to manually download the obsolete versions of items that have been updated. This could make a pretty big hole in whatever income is being made from legacy version users with FCTs. Of course, it's also another reason to upgrade.

Presumably, build 2.7 will be the build used for most updated stuff. I guess it's also possible for legacy version users to download this content and reduce the build number...

Paul

 

[StorkNest]

John, yeah that I left out because of the reason you state, but I thought you also wanted that info.

I personally think the build number should stay as it was in the original assets, but Windwalkr has already stated that this isn't going to happen. Fixed assets, no matter how old, will need to be "upgraded" to currently supported trainz-build numbers whether customers like it or not.

Some cases it could but I have experienced two times where I had to change it to make something work.
One was landrvr's content I was legally sent by email, I had to add mesh-tables and change the build number for them to work right.
The other was all maps before TRS2004 and a few of the early ones, when loaded into TS2009 and I think 2010 (don't have) a lot of things do not show up. I took one route, Montana Rail Link, in TRS2004 and saved it under a new name then imported that into TS2009 and everything appeared normal. Old maps need a new build number and new files created when saved in TRS2004, 2006 or Classics. Otherwise a bunch of old maps remain useless.

On the other hand, I was told in another recent thread that Auran doesn't recommend changes as trivial as category-region in the built-in content.

We're talking DLS content, not built-in. Personally I like to get rid of as many Errors and Warnings as possible because the less there are, the better Trainz is supposed to run. The only thing I ignore is the icon Warnings because I like those icons and I have not seen anything implmented to replace them yet, everything else I fix.

 

[Dermmy]

Yes it will.

chris

Ahha - it took a while but now I get it!

There are two intertwined things going on here:

Firstly: Older content is being updated to run better in the new version.

But as a consequence: Older routes will now only work in later versions of Trainz, because the intended version will no longer load the updated DLS content. Any attempt by 'old version holdouts' to keep 04 etc alive is doomed, because the DLS content on which every route depends will now only work in supported versions of the sim.

Given that older versions are no longer officially supported and that the DLS is the official repository of Trainz content there is no basis for argument with that position.

The old versions are dead: fait accompli

Andy

 

[paulhobbs]

But as a consequence: Older routes will now only work in later versions of Trainz, because the intended version will no longer load the updated DLS content. Any attempt by 'old version holdouts' to keep 04 etc alive is doomed, because the DLS content on which every route depends will now only work in supported versions of the sim.

No,you still haven't got it yet. Older versions of Trainz won't see the new fixed versions of the assets as the build number will be too high, so nothing changes.

Paul

 

[Dermmy]

Paul that was exactly the point of my first post on the previous page.

What I hadn't thought about though till Chris's cryptic answer was that a Trainzbuild 2.4 route will load a Trainzbuild 3.3 asset, but only if the route is installed in TS2010.

So NO route is broken by the updates, and NO route itself needs updated IF (and only if) it is run in TS2010 (or whatever version suits the trainzbuild of the updated content).

The DLS content updates however irrevocably break all routes in previous (unsupported) versions, making those old versions in effect worthless....

Andy

 

[paulzmay]

No,you still haven't got it yet. Older versions of Trainz won't see the new fixed versions of the assets as the build number will be too high, so nothing changes.

Paul

Not sure about TRS04's download helper, but I recall TRS06 being able to download a later version asset, but then fail to be able to do anything with it. I don't think I've ever seen it satisfactorily confirmed that the version of a dependency called for is the newest kuid2 number with a low enough build number. I thought I'd seen behaviour that suggestd that the newest version was always puled down irrespective of build. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though, perhaps by someone with someinside knowledge...

Paul

 

[johnwhelan]

Not sure about TRS04's download helper, but I recall TRS06 being able to download a later version asset, but then fail to be able to do anything with it. I don't think I've ever seen it satisfactorily confirmed that the version of a dependency called for is the newest kuid2 number with a low enough build number. I thought I'd seen behaviour that suggestd that the newest version was always puled down irrespective of build. I'd be happy to be proven wrong though, perhaps by someone with someinside knowledge...

Paul

Use the web interface, history then you can ftp download any of the older versions on the DLS.

Cheerio John

 

[Dermmy]

Use the web interface, history then you can ftp download any of the older versions on the DLS.

Cheerio John

You are assuming the older 'broken' versions are going to be left on the DLS after the new repaired version is uploaded. I would wager a substantial pile of coppers that you are wrong. The company line will be something like 'No point wasting server space and bandwidth on an asset which won't work in a supported version'.

And I am not being cynical, from N3V's point of view it is the smart thing to do...

Andy