Pushing a train for a distance prototypical?

[Davie_UCF]

Is a train reversing down a branch for say 1.5miles prototypical or would it be seen as dangerous?

Just having a train run around so it can pull then have to do the same thing a further 2 times in its journey seems excessive for just 1.5miles..

Routes steam era UK

Cheers
David

 

[cascaderailroad]

With a ladder riding tail end conductor using a radio, or caboose whistle, or hand signals ... these are used all the time for switching.

There is also tail end powred, push/pull trains, using a remote cab control in the hind end unit, that controls the pushing loco.

EDIT: I think the UK has similar operating procedures, and in the steam era there was alot of pushing and blind shunting.
I am modeling the steam era also ... Steam rules !

 

[Davie_UCF]

Well my route is uk and steam era. I guess you are speaking knowing of usa opperations but id like to hear about uk operations. This train isnt exactly going backwards but too lazy to run around.

 

[itareus]

David,

As far as I know it was not normal UK practice to propel a train long distances - basically since the rule of thumb was that it had to be done very slowly. Propelling in 'station limits' was a different matter - but still slow!

I had a quick look on the net to see if I could verify this and came across a thread on a model railway forum.

http://www.newrailwaymodellers.co.uk/Forums/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19390

See posts by "beamends" - he seems to know what he is talking about. I did not come across any further information about (steam era) propelling moves with the brief search.

There will always be exceptions that prove the rule!

Chris

 

[ray_whiley]

On the Snape branch of the old GER in the UK, it was normal practice for the loco to push the train in one direction - I'm not sure whether it was to Snape or back to the junction but I remember reading about this in a very old Railway Modeller magazine, probably in the mid-1950s - I'll see if I can find it in the next day or two. The story also went that the train would stop at a bridge so that the driver and fireman could do a little peaceful fishing!

The article, I remember, was illustrated with a track plan and photos, including the maltings at Snape which are now the home of the annual Aldeburgh Festival begun by Benjamin Britten. The railway - I think it was goods only - is long gone, of course, probably disused even before the fall of the Beeching axe. I believe other UK short branches may have been operated in the same way.

I have certainly run one model railway in N gauge using this method of operation (the original Dukes Denver, built in early 1977).

Ray

 

[itareus]

I knew there would be an exception !!

Info I have suggests Snape was about 1m 33ch from the junction - So go ahead and push David (but don't forget the fishing stop).

Thinking about it I seem to recall something about propelling moves on the Benwick (Cambs) goods only branch but I can't find anything to confirm this at the moment.

Cheers

Chris

 

[ray_whiley]

I've had a quick look for the Railway Modeller with the article on the Snape branch but haven't found it - yet. Should have been easy as I'm fairly sure it was in one of the early, very small format issues, probably from about 1953 or 1954. But it might have been later, or even another magazine - and with so many dating back nearly half a century, it's not easy to find a particular article - especially as I take an issue out when there's something I'm particularly interested in.

However, if any one is interested the following Middleton Press book (one of an excellent series) might help although I do not have it myself:

Branch Lines to Felixstowe and Aldeburgh including the Snape Branch by Richard Adderson & Graham Kenworthy.

Incidentally, the Aldeburgh branch would make a good Trainz project. (Could I model Sizewell power station?)

Ray

 

[SuperFudd]

Keep in mind that some steam locos driver axels don't lubricate properly in reverse at high speeds.

 

[Davie_UCF]

Very interesting!

I'm thinking of just lengthening the branch to make it worth running around.. It only a branch to a colliery with a small station halt at the end.


Love the fact they went fishing, thats so crazy!
Thanks to all

 

[tmz06003]

Co-incidentally I've just found a fascinating example of this in UK practise, where a train was pushed a distance of approximately 2km on the ECML up until 1981. The route is even available to try this out on the DLS- North Angus Montrose by Carmyllie Pilot, but needs a few adjustments to the trackplan to match the 1970s configuration.

The propelling movement was authorised between Montrose North signalbox (Montrose stroage loops trackmark) and Kinnaber Junction, as there was no direct connection to the Brechin branch from the south. The connection only pointed north and the trains ran from the south from Durham in England. The train could load up to 20 HTV hoppers conveying lime with a brake van. Pikka's CAR brake van is ideal for this purpose as it has an animated guard.

The movement started at Dundee, was tripped to Montrose where the loco would run round onto the rear. It would then push up the 2km to Kinnaber junction on the ECML, clearing the junction points. It could then run with the loco at the front all the way to Brechin.

The return move was to run from Brechin- Kinnaber junction with the loco at the front until the brake van at the rear cleared the points. It would then propel the 2km to montrose north before running round.

I've tried to set up a rough session on the route and it does work as described above, just need to limit the speed somehow for the propel move.

 

[Davie_UCF]

Co-incidentally I've just found a fascinating example of this in UK practise, where a train was pushed a distance of approximately 2km on the ECML up until 1981. The route is even available to try this out on the DLS- North Angus Montrose by Carmyllie Pilot, but needs a few adjustments to the trackplan to match the 1970s configuration.

The propelling movement was authorised between Montrose North signalbox (Montrose stroage loops trackmark) and Kinnaber Junction, after BR in their wisdom removed the direct chord east of Dubton to the Brechin branch. The connection then only pointed north despite the trains running from the south from Durham in England. The train could load up to 20 HTV hoppers conveying lime with a brake van. Pikka's CAR brake van is ideal for this purpose as it has an animated guard.

The movement started at Dundee, was tripped to Montrose where the loco would run round onto the rear. It would then push up the 2km to Kinnaber junction on the ECML, clearing the junction points. It could then run with the loco at the front all the way to Brechin.

The return move was to run from Brechin- Kinnaber junction with the loco at the front until the brake van at the rear cleared the points. It would then propel the 2km to montrose north before running round.

I've tried to set up a rough session on the route and it does work as described above, just need to limit the speed somehow for the propel move.

Interesting even more! Tried the set Dcc speed rule?

 

[lewisner]

Major exception - Push/Pull Edinburgh to Glasgow in the 1980's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_to_Edinburgh_via_Falkirk_Line

 

[AndrewH]

If the consist to be propelled is a passenger train then that was not allowed in UK during the years of steam. However if the engine was fitted for auto or push pull operation propulsion was OK; when the engine was pushing the driver sat in a special compartment at the front of the train and had control of the brake and regulator.

For a short colliery branch pushing the coal trucks was acceptable provided that the gradient was against the engine.

 

[Saxham_Market]

On the Snape branch of the old GER in the UK, it was normal practice for the loco to push the train in one direction - I'm not sure whether it was to Snape or back to the junction

The article, I remember, was illustrated with a track plan and photos, including the maltings at Snape which are now the home of the annual Aldeburgh Festival begun by Benjamin Britten. The railway - I think it was goods only - is long gone, of course, probably disused even before the fall of the Beeching axe.

However, if any one is interested the following Middleton Press book (one of an excellent series) might help although I do not have it myself:

Branch Lines to Felixstowe and Aldeburgh including the Snape Branch by Richard Adderson & Graham Kenworthy.

This is a book I do have , which allows me to fill in some of the gaps.

Goods services were withdrawn from 5th March 1960. The branch was indeed goods only, although a station was constructed at Snape. This station included a small goods shed and a two-storey station building complete with platform (suggesting that a passenger service was planned when the branch was built). This platform was built to 19th century dimensions and is rather lower than present-day platforms.

A 1904 plan of Snape shows the single line approaching from the NW shows the station to be aligned roughly WNW-ESE two parallel tracks in the station, the northern track serving the "passenger" platform and the southern track the goods shed. Both lines then continued ESE, crossing a road before recombining and entering the maltings through an arch. On the maltings site itself there were a fair number of sidings, accessed via two wagon turntables.

The book includes some photographs of a "typical" train of the 1950s made up of a J15 0-6-0 with four coal wagons and a brake van, the locomotive facing west and at the western end of the train. It also looks as though by that time the branch had only one trailing connection to the up main line at Snape Junction. Snape trains probably approached from the Lowestoft direction (north) on the up line, go past the junction, and then reversed onto the branch and onward to Snape. Coming back, it would then run back onto the up main line and continue its journey to Ipswich (south).

The Snape branch would certainly make an interesting layout that would fit onto, at a guess, half a dozen boards (only 3-4 if the line was "straightened out"). The problem I can see with operating such a layout would be that shunting within the maltings was done by horse or tractor... and I'm not sure how to simulate that in Trainz (given that the main difference between a locomotive, a horse, and a tractor is that only one of those has to run on rails!)

Although the track has been lifted, much of the station remains (as, of course, does the maltings), as can be seen on Google Maps.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.
As someone who can remember in the old steam era in my younger days, push pull operations where quite common in British rail Western region operations.

The operation was commonly carried out on short branch lines but a major factor was that the train could not be more than two carriages long if it was to be pushed at any stage.

The above was obviously for safety reasons in that the driver (engineer) would not be able to see safely more than that distance especially on curved sections of track where the view of the line could be impaired by bridges trees etc close to the side of track.

I believe that as long as the above criteria was met there was no distance limit on how far the train could travel. However, most Western region branch lines were never more than about 5 mile.

The biggest limiting factor as far as distance was concerned was the very uncomfortable position the driver was placed in having to stand with his back to the footplate bulkhead, his arm stretched out to the throttle and his head poked out of the footplate window to see where he was going.

if you can imagine it he was standing in a sort of Y position with this head being the left-hand side of the upper arm looking from the front

I believe all the above is correct, but of course I always stand to be corrected acknowledging my limited wisdom

Bill

 

[ray_whiley]

Push-pull often meant something different to this, that is, using a locomotive at one end of the train and at the other a specially adapted coach (usually a brake van) with a driving compartment containing a set of controls linked manually (that is by rods etc.) to those in the locomotive. On the GWR these coaches (specially built rather than adapted) were known as autocoaches, and at least one example by andi06 is available on the DLS. Other railways used a similar system, and they were known as motor trains on the GER. I was especially familiar with the one that ran the shuttle service between King's Lynn GER and South Lynn M&GN (many years ago!). On the Isle of Wight, even four-wheelers were used in this way.

For my own use (initially) I made simple models of the brakes with driving compartment, and these are on the DLS (4compt pp B3rd lake and 4compt pp B3rd brown). These were also for use on my representation of the West Norfolk Railway to Wells-on-Sea (sic) where the method of getting the loco to the other end of the train was, to say the least, unusual!

I am not aware of any restriction on the length of a train using this system, although it may have been limited by the mechanical linkage used. Modern multiple units are a later version of the idea.

Many thanks to Saxham Market for further information on Snape which indeed sounds worth modelling and I am sure I would find the book mentioned of interest if I had it. Would shunting by horse or tractor be insurmountable in Trainz? There are certainly driveable buses and horses available, could not dedicated but Surveyor-only track be used? But perhaps coupling would be a problem. And I am fairly sure that one magazine in my collection contains drawings of the maltings - if I could find it!

Ray

 

[wholbr]

Hi Ray.
I think you may be referring to a later era than I was. I was referring to the steam era up to the mid-60s.

Push pull operation on British rail branch lines in that era meant that there was no possibility of any remote control from the carriages because of the complex nature and human physical ability deeded to control a steam locomotive.

The reason why the consists could not be more than two carriages long was that the driver had to look along the side of the entire train when pushing to see what he was approaching.

Another reason also why the entire train could not be more than two carriages long is (if you think about it) that on a left-hand curve with let's say a humpbacked bridge placed close to the side of the track at least part of the front carriage that was being pushed could disappear from the driver's view along with all that was in front of it.

The reason I know about the physical strain on the driver when the engine was pushing backwards was that as a youngster I had two uncles who were drivers on Western region one of them did not live far from us and we very often used to go down there to play with his two daughters (don't take that to literary).

I remember being down there one teatime when he came home cursing how bad his back felt because all day he had been on a push pull operation. I remember his wife rubbing his back as he sat down for his evening meal.

All I can think of these days is that he must have been on the Bristol to portizhead line or the Bristol to Avonmouth line which were the only two direct branch lines out of Temple Mead's where he was based.

Anyway Ray that's my recollection of the steam era as far as push pull operations were concerned yours may be of a slightly later era than mine

All the best
Bill

 

[Saxham_Market]

Would shunting by horse or tractor be insurmountable in Trainz? There are certainly driveable buses and horses available, could not dedicated but Surveyor-only track be used? But perhaps coupling would be a problem.

Invisible track would be a possibility, but what I'd be concerned about is the possibilty of accidentally sending a horse with a wagon in tow down one of the invisible sidings or loops.

One possibility might be scripted junction levers (disguised as packing crates, barrels, patches of dirt, etc) that would automatically lock to the "track" position when the horse or tractor was coupled to a wagon.

Something else that would need to be addressed is that a horse should only couple to a wagon whan facing away from it, and that they shouldn't be asked to walk backwards too far - so the "horse" loco would need to be able to rotate on the spot (asking for fully animated legs while it did so would, I feel, be too much to expect!) Less of a problem for tractors since they can reverse - and push a wagon, which a horse couldn't.

Some drivable horses with riders by "elvenor" are built-in content with TS2010, and John Whelan has done some draught horses that I believe are based on those. Since they're essentially riding horses they're quite slim, and while I'd happily use them to pulll a brougham or a hansom cab, I feel that it would be cruel to put them to work in a shunting yard.

I did take some profile and end elevation* photographs of a heavy horse last year with a mind to, perhaps, making one for Trainz, but that's firmly in the "unstarted projects" file at the moment.

*Given that the horse was facing south, I think I attracted some strange looks when I photographed the northern elevation.

 

[Vern]

Major exception - Push/Pull Edinburgh to Glasgow in the 1980's

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glasgow_to_Edinburgh_via_Falkirk_Line

Difference here is that the other end of the train had a driving trailer vehicle with a fully equipped cab. The Glasgow - Edinburgh push-pulls used a converted Mark 2 BSO, later applications on the WCML and ECML had purpose built DVT's (driving van trailers).

 

[ray_whiley]

Again, thanks for your comments, Saxham Market. A tractor would be the best way to go, I think. Or one could be a little unprototypical and use a small, maltings-owned shunting loco which would not be allowed onto GER-owned track but kept firmly within the yard. An interesting candidate if rather 'weird' would be Sirapite, as used by Garretts of Leiston - it would at least be fairly local! This was an Aveling & Porter 0-4-0 tank later replaced by a battery loco.

Several private lines in East Anglia had their own locos - Wissington beet factory (off the old Denver to Stoke Ferry branch - itself an interesting project) and the Boam sand pits near Middleton off the King's Lynn to Dereham line. Any of these would make an interesting quick project in Trainz - especially the sand pits which (from boyhood memories) had an extensive narrow gauge system. I can't recall what motive power was used on this, but in some parts gravity certainly worked.

Ray