Privatizing USA Passenger Rail

[JCitron]

When gas is $10 a gallon, an ear of corn will be $5 at the supermarket. Milk will be $10 a gallon.

After 9/11, when gas was going towards $4 a gallon, it about shut us down. That price, in delivery and production, will be passed into the goods you buy, including food. When it is no longer economical to ship, who will grow it and send it to market? 1000 acre farms are all around where I live. You couldn't manage that with manual labor. Cities aren't coming to get the products. It has to be shipped.

Be careful what you wish for. It has ripple effects in places you never thought possible. There are a lot of other countries who receive our food exports at a reasonable price just to survive. A train ride would never cross their minds.

You're lucky to still have 1000 acre farms. Our farmland became yuppie housing developments and golf courses. In fact in one town the yuppies complained to the local town because pigs smelled and had to be dealt with. The 150 year old farm shutdown and more houses were built there.

The reason why I said what I did is a few years ago when gas went up over $4.00 a gallon, people were lookgin seriously at public transportation and increased commuter rail service. When the price dropped again, amazingly, the thought disappeared as fast as a fart in a strong wind.

Rising prices and inflation are not something I'm wishing for, believe me. During the high-fuel price months, I was working in logisitcs. The company I worked for raised all shipping costs to 10% for all orders. If the order was %$20,000, well we made $2,000 on it. We never really "made" money because this 10% charge barely covered the cost of shipments. When the price of fuel dropped, we credited customers and lowered our cost accordingly. Right now it's costing me over $200.00 per month to go back and forth to work. This is 70 miles per day on a commute that is supposed to take 30 minutes each way. That works out to more than $1.00 per mile for the trip. If the company was located on the commuter line, I could pay $120.00 for a monthly pass, which would include the MBTA trolleys and subways too.

John

 

[sparky15]

Hope you don't think I was singling you out. There are some who think we should raise fuel prices to force people to public transportation. To many repercussions in other areas where rail is not possible.

The only way to make rail travel more attractive is to make it more convenient. Not easy to do considering how spread out we are. Best we can do, I think, is maybe 50/50 at best between rail and automobile. Still not profitable enough to make it a reality everywhere. That $56 billion they want to invest has to come from somewhere, usually other transportation programs or higher fuel prices.

Oh, and where I live, more and more empty homes all around me. The small back road I live on was almost constantly in use. Today, you could just about sleep in the middle of it at night and not worry about being hit. Pretty nice actually. The first 5 years I lived here, never owned a key, lock was broken when I bought the place. I was in the military and would have to leave for months on end and never locked my house, never needed to. It's getting that way again and I like it.

Dave......

 

[JCitron]

Hope you don't think I was singling you out. There are some who think we should raise fuel prices to force people to public transportation. To many repercussions in other areas where rail is not possible.

The only way to make rail travel more attractive is to make it more convenient. Not easy to do considering how spread out we are. Best we can do, I think, is maybe 50/50 at best between rail and automobile. Still not profitable enough to make it a reality everywhere. That $56 billion they want to invest has to come from somewhere, usually other transportation programs or higher fuel prices.

Oh, and where I live, more and more empty homes all around me. The small back road I live on was almost constantly in use. Today, you could just about sleep in the middle of it at night and not worry about being hit. Pretty nice actually. The first 5 years I lived here, never owned a key, lock was broken when I bought the place. I was in the military and would have to leave for months on end and never locked my house, never needed to. It's getting that way again and I like it.

Dave......

I didn't think you singled me out, LOL.

I agree there needs to be that balance of good convenient service and support for both forms of transport. Where I live in eastern Mass. there used to be three other branchlines besides the current Boston to Portland mainline. All of these other lines disappeared during the late 40's through the 90s as passenger service was cut and freight moved to the nearby interstate highways. When I-495 and I-95 went in during the 50-80s the freight moved to the trucks on the highways. Today both roads are in such bad shape that there are tie ups every morning as the roads are patched. One of the bridges over the Merrimack River was closed briefly because of falling bit and pieces.

My area unfortunately is getting more crowded. There is so much traffic now that I wait until very late to go in to work and very late to leave. It's not worth wasting my gas going 10mph or less for a trip that's usually only 30-40 minutes each way.

Sadly our population doesn't really see the real benefit of rail travel. In Europe they've worked out the problem years ago, and the benefits of rail are shown every day.

John

 

[Retro00064]

I didn't think you singled me out, LOL.

I agree there needs to be that balance of good convenient service and support for both forms of transport. Where I live in eastern Mass. there used to be three other branchlines besides the current Boston to Portland mainline. All of these other lines disappeared during the late 40's through the 90s as passenger service was cut and freight moved to the nearby interstate highways. When I-495 and I-95 went in during the 50-80s the freight moved to the trucks on the highways. Today both roads are in such bad shape that there are tie ups every morning as the roads are patched. One of the bridges over the Merrimack River was closed briefly because of falling bit and pieces.

My area unfortunately is getting more crowded. There is so much traffic now that I wait until very late to go in to work and very late to leave. It's not worth wasting my gas going 10mph or less for a trip that's usually only 30-40 minutes each way.

Sadly our population doesn't really see the real benefit of rail travel. In Europe they've worked out the problem years ago, and the benefits of rail are shown every day.

John

I smell heavily worn concrete freeways. :udrool: For the real stuff, consider that last year, in Raleigh, N. C. (near where I live), one of the streets, Glenwood Avenue, still had concrete pavement from around the 1920s-1930s or so (albeit covered up with some wimpy asphalt resurfacing ), and it was causing problems (and you know what I mean), so last year, the antique road was torn up and replaced with totally brand-new asphalt, and the road is a lot smoother than it was before.

I agree that the people should stop an dthink about taking the train. Trains can be a lot safer any way, due to the fact that they are mostly restriced to a fixed path (instead of a human steering an automobile along a paved path).

Regards.

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody

Sadly our population doesn't really see the real benefit of rail travel. In Europe they've worked out the problem years ago, and the benefits of rail are shown every day.John

You are very right there John. Germany and France both run Trainz at over 200 mph city center to city center and are showing the world how railways should be run. We will here in Britain shortly have Trains traveling at that speed but only on the channel tunnel route.

In Britain the government owns the track network through the company known as railtrack. However, private companies run the Trains on the network which has had its problems in the past but is now beginning to show real improvements.

Passenger numbers on the rail network have been climbing rapidly in recent years with a record 15% increase last year. Passenger numbers are expected to double in the next five years if not sooner.

The big problem now is overcrowding due to the most popular intercity routes now reaching capacity as far as the number of Trains that can be run on them at peak periods has been reached. a major upgrade program is now starting to be undertaken but that sadly is lagging behind the rapid increase in passenger numbers.

It would seem here in Britain that the love affair with the car is definitely over. Public transport is seen as the way forward with the train very much leading that despite the high cost of fares and as stated overcrowding.

Bill

 

[cool450]

I totally believe that the private railroads should start taking back passenger service. They are the only ones who know how to do it right, and they are the only ones who will ever know how to do it right. Gasoline is getting higher and higher, and it probably wont stop getting higher until we burn the last drop of oil. Trains can carry more people than any car could ever carry, and it pulls it all with only one or two engines. That's a big difference. A new age in the history of the North American railroad is beginning, and its only a matter of time before the common man is back in control of the passenger trains.

Trains are also safer than planes. 9/11 would not have happened if those flights were trains. Why? Because it's 2011. Nobody robs trains anymore.

 

[paulzmay]

The problem with the British system is that the cost to the taxpayer doubled under the privatised system, and despite the best that private enterprise could do, that figure really hasn't come down.

It's also impossible to tell whether the increase in passenger numbers would have happened anyway, with rising fuel prices and an almost complete halt to major road building schemes. Some of the private companies have been very good at marketing and providing an improved service, but many have been woeful. Freight has certainly benefited from privatisation, but it's hard to say whether anything has been done there that couldn't have been done under a more agressive public sector management.

So the question for the USA has got to be - what would privatization acheive? If you don't know, or you can't back up your assertions, it's probably a bad move - just another bit of small government ideology, when what's needed is a better service.

Paul

 

[illinoiscentral]

Other nations that have successful HSR have achieved that through the imposition of high fees on the roadways that parallel the lines, or the neglect of the roadways themselves. Removing freight trucks from the interstate system is not feasible, and would sacrifice one industry to promote another. Until the train can stop at the local Piggly Wiggly and drop off a case of Twizzlers, the trucking industry is vital to business and our economy. If a business venture such as HSR was viable and could be profitable (and therefore sustainable) it would have already been pursued by private enterprise.

I agree with you Ed.
If we want to improve the way we ship freight and passengers it has to work together. Trucks for the short haul, trains for the long haul, ships and planes for the international freight. Same with passengers. Car for the short haul, trains for the medium distances and air for the long distance and international travel. But see, that sounds too good to be true, therefore it will never happen.


Cheers,
Woody

 

[paulzmay]

I agree with you Ed.
If we want to improve the way we ship freight and passengers it has to work together. Trucks for the short haul, trains for the long haul, ships and planes for the international freight. Same with passengers. Car for the short haul, trains for the medium distances and air for the long distance and international travel. But see, that sounds too good to be true, therefore it will never happen.


Cheers,
Woody

I'd go with that, but add that trains & trams are probably the best bet for a lot of urban short distance journeys, especially in the denser built cities. Plus rail can often be competetive on short haul if the volumes are there, and rail facilities exist at source and destination.

Paul

 

[sparky15]

I live in NW Indiana and before I retired, I drove 70 miles one way to work down at Grissom AFB. My property buts up against the old C&O main down to Lagansport. In fact, I have an old C&O company flop house on my property. Neat old building, complete with his and hers outhouses.
Anyway, during that morning trek, I was rarely out of eyesight of that old rail line until I hit Logansport. It would make my day if that line was still running passenger service. Truth is, I would probably be the only one riding it at 4 A.M. when I left for work (3 A.M. in the winter). That line has been torn out in the last three years and replaced with bike trails.
To many of those old lines are being sold for scrap now. The infrastructure was there, including track, for a ton of small towns around here. A shortline put in a bid to restore rail service, the scrap man put in a higher one and won.
I think that is where we should be investing. All those cast off lines that still have rail in place. No need to rebuild, just upgrade. The hard work is done, just need to run a train or two and test the ridership at minimal cost using idling equipment the railroads have in storage. Can't be hard to find an old Geep or two no one is using. Who knows what would follow with the explosion of intermodal. A siding and an unloader is all you need and revert to short haul trucking for the last few miles.

 

[backyard]

Yeah, its going to be uphill.

The Governor here in Florida cancelled the High Speed Rail program here in Florida. Mostly to pander to a specific group of people(to keep it simple), but its more than that too.

The significant part was liability was set upon the private operator after grand opening, but opposition kept emphasizing government involvement. Maybe if the government wasn't involved at all it would have been easier, but I think those companies would want to be certain that the government was in demand for the rail line as well.

It was a depressing defeat indeed, but its not the end.

I think that we do need to re-establish a market for passengers. Amtrak is a good spring-pad for that, although it still needs tweaking I think that the past 5-10 years it has improved.

Rail in the US was brought down by the current transportation powers that be: namely the automobile, oil, and airline industries. They bought out transit companies, tore up rails, and screamed the death of the iron horse. I don't think that the reason for demise of trains in the US is emphasized enough. People say it was just popular change of mind, but I personally can't say that its solely that.

Anyhow, thats just my 5 cents(since 2 cents doesn't cut it anymore).

I agree with the governor on this one...even though I know that the Tampa - Orlando route is not only needed, but now expected.

But we do have a serious money problem ongoing...if the Dollar don't hold, transportation to work may be a moot point(but $3-5.-- gas will be the only alternative)...

I agree with you Isaac, this is not the end...I've been reading The Ledger.

The incentive for HSR has been planted firmly in Florida & will continue at the budding stage until brighter days, whereby there will be some refreshing & healthy railfanning ongoing!

We needed passenger rail during the Industrial Age of Development in the United States of America.

Evidently the "Need for Speed" is a genetically implanted gift, now every rail line has a road built either by it or on it!

So profitable long-distance passenger solutions did not developed as generationally as the rest of Transportation Technology.

Our lifestyle is one of a hyper-increase in mobility & therefore saving time, we should be "taking care of business."

Are we?

 

[kws4000]

Problems with expansion:
One mile of track costs up to a cool million bucks for passenger quality.
Most of the rail congestion is in cities where communities don't want fast, dangerous trains runnign down the poor bastard tresspassing illegally on railroad property.
Insurance costs.

Publicization of everything:
Remember WW1 and the USRA? Absolute Disaster! In WW2, they stayed out and everything ran much smoother.

Privatization of Amtrak:
It has to be economically feasible. That's why eveyone got out of the game at the first opportunity. Southern held out initially, but it soon fell apart too.

I have a book that includes a study on government subsidies for transportation. It's from the 70s, but still relevant. Trucks cause 80% of the damage to the roads, but pay only 20% or less of maintinence. Also, favorable trade agreements that pull out industry and drop gas prices put an even greater strain on roads as imports move by road, money moves by wire overseas, and we're dug even deeper into debt by Uncle Sam.

My advice:
Keep funding Amtrak, but cut back on secret military funding. Tun SS back to what it was: a supplement, not main income. Stop paying farmers not to grow food. Pull out of G8 and G20, or whatever they have now. Maintain hype about GREEN, but stop subsidizing it. AND GIVE MY COUNTRY BACK TO ME, I DON"T WANT TO PAY ALL OF YOU OLD FARTS BILLS! :'(

 

[sparky15]

Apparently kws4000 wants to mix in politics.
Hate to bust your bubble but Social Security was a forced tax to pay for our retirement. If you ever made a paycheck, that tax was taken out for your own good so you wouldn't be a burden in your later years when you couldn't work. It was the model for your 401k, but forced upon us through taxes and no choice.

Social Security was put into the general fund years ago. An account to borrow from. The only reason it is insolvent is those years of taking from it by entitlement punks like you. Your so called public education was funded by my forced payment into this system. Funny how you scream about my retirement funded by that account yet complain about having to support me because you stole those funds I paid into my whole working life. Seems us old farts are paying your bills now from our retirement accounts we were force to pay not to be a burden to you.

We pay farmers not to grow to protect farmers globally and fix prices and markets.

Us old farts are tired of paying your give me needs at the cost of years of taxes NOT to be in this predicament. Pay your own way for a change and quit expecting someone to give because your hand is out. You give nothing but expect it all. You are the problem.

 

[JCitron]

Apparently kws4000 wants to mix in politics.
Hate to bust your bubble but Social Security was a forced tax to pay for our retirement. If you ever made a paycheck, that tax was taken out for your own good so you wouldn't be a burden in your later years when you couldn't work. It was the model for your 401k, but forced upon us through taxes and no choice.

Social Security was put into the general fund years ago. An account to borrow from. The only reason it is insolvent is those years of taking from it by entitlement punks like you. Your so called public education was funded by my forced payment into this system. Funny how you scream about my retirement funded by that account yet complain about having to support me because you stole those funds I paid into my whole working life. Seems us old farts are paying your bills now from our retirement accounts we were force to pay not to be a burden to you.

We pay farmers not to grow to protect farmers globally and fix prices and markets.

Us old farts are tired of paying your give me needs at the cost of years of taxes NOT to be in this predicament. Pay your own way for a change and quit expecting someone to give because your hand is out. You give nothing but expect it all. You are the problem.

Yep, and thanks to the the banks and the stockmarket, I no longer have a 401K. In 2009, my retirement went from $159,000 to $80,000 before I could stop the bleeding. I was then laid-off for one year, and my unemployment barely covered my monthly expenses, so I lived on a good hunk of what's left paying mortgage and other housing expenses. My bro's business used to contribute to the house expenses, but he only made $22,000 in 2010!

So this year, I'm still recovering quite a bit even though I now have a job, and my retirement is now gone. There was only $2,000 left after the investment company made their withdrawls for account maintenance. If I left the balance in there, they'd take it all, so I pulled the money out and put it into the company 401k program. So hopefully I will have a $1.50 left for a cup of hot coco by the time I retire!

This is how messed up things are. While I was unemployed, I still needed to take my Parkinson's medication, which I could barely afford. At one point, I gave up and sucked it in and went without. I had a choice. Pay the drug companies $1800 a month for my meds, which are all 100% profit for them because they were all out in the market since 1975, or starve and live under a bridge. I chose to give up the medication.

My whole UE check was about $1500 so I was operating in the hole before I started. Remember this is before government healthcare, so we can't blame the Dems on this one. This was under the Romney plan in Mass. His plan requires manadtory payment by all into the worst plan in the country - Network Health, which is made up of the worst quality doctors anyone can scrounge up. If you want to be a doctor, go to school in Togo, and you'll get a job with Network Health. With Uncle Mitt's plan, which we scarcastically called our ex-governor, I would have lost my neurologist at the famous Lahey Clinic, which is not part of the cheap Network Health. I was paying $150 per month out of the balance of my check to the Mitt health plan, so really all I had left was about $200 to live on. And you know what that covers these days!

Remember the Social Security was never supposed to be touched other than by the retirees. It was some numb-nut congress that decided that it was a nice big cache to grab and stuff into their pockets. So if the fund is now broke, we should go after them and make them pay it back!

John

 

[sparky15]

I had a parent pass away and had to take an early retirement to take care of the other. Over two years now of him in and out of the hospital and cooking through my savings. Finally got my Dad's health to the point I will be able to work again soon. My retirement doesn't kick in until I'm 59. Made to much to qualify for unemployment and since I had to quit, you get the idea.

Money wise, it's bad. Getting to know a parent all over again was worth it. Funny teaching a parent how to balance a checkbook and cook for themselves. He's diabetic but Mom always took care of him. I call him the hillbilly Fred Sanford. They messed his medication up and almost killed him. Took several hospital stays before they finally figured it out. I was in the military and due for an 18 month rotation. Couldn't leave him to fend for himself.

At least I own everything so monthly upkeep isn't so bad. Just hope I can get hired again. To much time off and over qualified for most jobs. 24 years military, you hear that a lot. Plus, I got lazy a bit. Went from 210 and built to 175 and scrawny.

Anyways. To much wrong with the world right now. Sorry I vented a bit.

 

[JCitron]

I had a parent pass away and had to take an early retirement to take care of the other. Over two years now of him in and out of the hospital and cooking through my savings. Finally got my Dad's health to the point I will be able to work again soon. My retirement doesn't kick in until I'm 59. Made to much to qualify for unemployment and since I had to quit, you get the idea.

Money wise, it's bad. Getting to know a parent all over again was worth it. Funny teaching a parent how to balance a checkbook and cook for themselves. He's diabetic but Mom always took care of him. I call him the hillbilly Fred Sanford. They messed his medication up and almost killed him. Took several hospital stays before they finally figured it out. I was in the military and due for an 18 month rotation. Couldn't leave him to fend for himself.

At least I own everything so monthly upkeep isn't so bad. Just hope I can get hired again. To much time off and over qualified for most jobs. 24 years military, you hear that a lot. Plus, I got lazy a bit. Went from 210 and built to 175 and scrawny.

Anyways. To much wrong with the world right now. Sorry I vented a bit.

It's good to vent, dude. This is what keeps us healthy.
It's great that you can help your dad. He was very lucky. An aunt of mine had hypoglycemia, which was misdiagnosed as diabetes. She ended up in a coma for a few months and ended up with dementia from it. This was many years ago. She died quite elderly though so she was very lucky. I think she was something like 94, which surprised us with all she went through.

My parents live with my brother and me. They're both in their mid 70s. Dad has some dementia and mom is okay. Dad drives us crazy because he tries to do things and then forgets. Their SS barely covers their medication and even with our reduced expenses, they can't afford supplemental insurance.

I was supposed to wait until I was 59 to touch my funds, but I had no choice. I didn't want to lose the house and everyone would lose everything along with me. So, I took what I could while I still had it and lived on it. It beats watching it get sucked into the drain with the drop in the market. At least I paid off nearly all my bills and survived! The state and US gov't got a good hunk of it in taxes though, which stinks, but I knew that would happen. It didn't matter that I was only 48 and with PD. You can claim medical, but need to crawl on your eye lashes to be able to get away with no taxes!

Anyway, trains and Trainz are what keeps me sane. I can disappear into my own world and not worry about everything around me.

If you ever want to vent, just for the case of venting, give me a PM and we can talk.

John

 

[sparky15]

Thanks John. Just kind of felt bad for teeing off on kws.
To much selfishness going on to pay for the subject of this thread. We have become a one size fits all society. Where you live, a rail system would make sense. Where I live it would be a drain on you because of how we fund things. Have to find a balance like you said to make it work. With limited funds cuts have to be made somewhere.
When the big dig was in full swing, we lost funds to clear snow from the roads, funds where diverted from our highway fund for it. Our current system needs a major overhaul before we can take something like this on. The money mess we are in will, and should, delay it until we can afford it.
I spent quite a bit of time in England and Germany. The rail system there was a pleasure to use. They do have the advantage of smaller population densities that work in their favor. Didn't have a car and never felt I needed one while I was there. It could happen here but we need a major overhaul in things that have little to do with rail but eventual would lead to it.

Dave......

 

[JCitron]

Thanks John. Just kind of felt bad for teeing off on kws.
To much selfishness going on to pay for the subject of this thread. We have become a one size fits all society. Where you live, a rail system would make sense. Where I live it would be a drain on you because of how we fund things. Have to find a balance like you said to make it work. With limited funds cuts have to be made somewhere.
When the big dig was in full swing, we lost funds to clear snow from the roads, funds where diverted from our highway fund for it. Our current system needs a major overhaul before we can take something like this on. The money mess we are in will, and should, delay it until we can afford it.
I spent quite a bit of time in England and Germany. The rail system there was a pleasure to use. They do have the advantage of smaller population densities that work in their favor. Didn't have a car and never felt I needed one while I was there. It could happen here but we need a major overhaul in things that have little to do with rail but eventual would lead to it.

Dave......

No problem, Dave. I fully understand. We have a whole generation of people who have lived on their parent's and grandparent's wealth and have no idea how to make do, or work hard for something. The new 20-somethings out there have this entitlement attitude where they expect everything to be handed to them, including a driver's license. (A topic for a new thread, I suppose).

Anyway I worked in Boston during the early-mid part of the Big Dig mess. The great politicians, including Uncle Mitt, our lovely exgovernor later on, were really deep in the pockets of Bechtel on this. Granted there are cost over runs on many projects, including those that I've managed myself. This happens as you know due to technical difficulties, etc. But to knowingly use faulty concrete and adhesives, to knowingly charge more because it's a state job, really is bawlsy as I looked at it. And Bechtel got away with it by blaming the other under contracters they hired!

Really the only good thing we got while this massive project was happening was some extra trains to Haverhill and Lowell, and a few double-deck commuter cars, which wouldn't run on the Norhside anyway due to the curves being too tight at the junction near the engine terminal. They actually jumped the tracks on the curve.

At the time of the Big Dig design, work was done for a North-South connection for the railines, but that will never happen. They claim it'll cost too much, but they spent quite a bit of money on widening Route 3 from New Hampshire. Go figure.

Up in Haverhill, the snow plowers don't bother to really clean the snow after we've had the big storms. The first storm comes, that little 1/8" of dusting, and they'll be out all night racing up and down scraping, plowing, sanding, and doing all that looks impressive. The first real snowstorm, and they drive around all night with their blades up, collecting the overtime and doing nothing. Then when we really need it, like after the past few winners of storms, they now claim there's no budget for snow removal, and they'll go up and down a few times leaving about 8 inches of snow in the street.

John

 

[TorenHynes]

Ed,

Simple solution..... the dirigibles crew will be required to eat BEANS before and during the flight......

Have fun,

Hahahaha! Powering dirigibles with digestive gases containing methane! That's so funny!
Well, that's a good point. In Canada, the government should STOP subsidizing the messy oil sands and putting so much money in the roads and put all those wasted billions into VIA Rail.
VIA needs money to make their trains attractive and fast -- if you're concerned, become an MP, get elected, and speak up, or go on FaceBook and organize a protest at the Parliament.
If you're concerned, why don't you speak up?

 

[gfisher]

On the Fox News webpage there is a taxpayer cost calculator for the current high speed rail proposal.....designed of course to get everybody to oppose it.....but when I ran it through for my wife and I, it ended up costing us a little less than $40.00 a year for six years. Somehow I think I could manage to scrape it together. Maybe they could take half of it out of the highway budget, which is many times as large, and then it would only cost me $20.00.

If there was a sensible and balanced plan then we would know what we should be spending, but no one in government plans anything anymore except of course the next election. Time to throw them all out.