Newbie--Cab Control Questions

[Steampower4884]

Hello all,

I am pretty much new to the world of Trainz and a few nights ago I installed TRS2004 (from The Complete Collection pack) on to my system. I naturally started out with the tutorials and of course a few questions cropped up in relation to the controls that hopefully could be answered.

Ok here we go:

1) When controlling a diesel train they only cover the use of the main brakes. However they don't discuss the other two brake levers, the independent brakes and the dynamic brakes. I kind of figured out that the dynamic brakes has something to do with the throttle, but I don't know what.

2) When applying the brakes on a diesel train using the keyboard, I have noticed that when you first hit the 'a' key the hud sys 'init' for brakes, if you hit the z key it says 'lap' and then finally if you go back to 'a' you finally get 'application'. I found this a weird way of making a selection. As it is I would like to try my hand at making external controls for this program, but the way that key assignement works I would be shifting the lever forward, then back and then forward again to get to 'application'. Is there a better way I can set the keyboard so that I can get 'application' right away?

3) In lieu of the above and since I was interested in external controls I was looking for a chart for all the key assignments in Trainz. I looked through the manual but I didn't see anything. However, I have noticed that in the Trainz folder is a folder that says "settings" in that folder is a file labeled 'keyboard.txt'. Naturally since it is a text file I opened it up.

Well apparently there was what I was looking for, so now I have a key assignement list, but I am curious...does 'keyboard.txt' control the ACTUAL key assigments?

One thing I found annoying when going from cab control on a diesel to a steam is that the throttle assignment changes while 'w' is up for both systems, the diesel uses 'x' for down and steam uses 's'. That is a bit confusing...but I don't see an assignment for steam for x so I am wonderinf if I could change this in Keyboard.txt.

4) When running a steam engine, I don't quite understand the directions in that the reverser lever is used somewhat like a throttle. Perhaps someone with steamie knowledge could explain this better. In addition, the instructions mention to pull the lever for the injector when it gets less then about 75% or so. However, I have not seen the water level in the glass drop as of yet. So I am not sure what to look out for here. Also around the glass (there are really two glasses) are a bunch of 'L' lever valves. What do these do?

Well, that should do it for now.

Thank You,

Geo

 

[Gandalf0444]

A reverser on a steam locomotive act's a lot like a transmission in the sense that it gives the ability to change your direction. When you want to move forward, you move the reverser to the forward position(usually not all the way to avoid wheel slip as well as other issues) Then you should apply the throttle. If you want to stop to change directions you should release the throttle, and then apply the brakes. Once stopped you would then move the reverser back so that you can now travel backwards, then follow the same steps above.

 

[philskene]

4884 --

If you mouse click here you can download a documentation package:

http://rapidshare.com/files/320555180/RRC_2_Docs.zip

One of the documents provides detailed instructions for driving diesel and steam locomotives in Cab Mode using the keyboard.

Please tell me if this helps.

Phil

 

[Steampower4884]

A reverser on a steam locomotive act's a lot like a transmission in the sense that it gives the ability to change your direction. When you want to move forward, you move the reverser to the forward position(usually not all the way to avoid wheel slip as well as other issues) Then you should apply the throttle. If you want to stop to change directions you should release the throttle, and then apply the brakes. Once stopped you would then move the reverser back so that you can now travel backwards, then follow the same steps above.

The changing direction part of the reverser I understand, it is the 'half' or 'part' operation of the reverser that I am not clear on. The instructions were saying that once you get up to speed to back off on the reverser a bit if you are on a flat. So that part I am not too clear on.

What about the injector? That is another thing that is a '?' with me.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[Steampower4884]

The changing direction part of the reverser I understand, it is the 'half' or 'part' operation of the reverser that I am not clear on. The instructions were saying that once you get up to speed to back off on the reverser a bit if you are on a flat. So that part I am not too clear on.

What about the injector? That is another thing that is a '?' with me.

Thanx,

Geo

4884 --

If you mouse click here you can download a documentation package:

http://rapidshare.com/files/320555180/RRC_2_Docs.zip

One of the documents provides detailed instructions for driving diesel and steam locomotives in Cab Mode using the keyboard.

Please tell me if this helps.

Phil

Hello Phil, I tired to download it today, but it kept saying that the site is 'full' and to try back in two minutes. Well, I been trying that over a course of 2 HOURS and no dice. Maybe I have to try during the week.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[Gandalf0444]

The changing direction part of the reverser I understand, it is the 'half' or 'part' operation of the reverser that I am not clear on. The instructions were saying that once you get up to speed to back off on the reverser a bit if you are on a flat. So that part I am not too clear on.

What about the injector? That is another thing that is a '?' with me.

Thanx,

Geo

Ahh sorry about the misunderstanding. I was always told to never open it(reverser) all the way while you first start moving open it a little bit then add a little of the throttle, then once you get up to speed you can open it(reverser) a little further, but do not need to open it fully.

I am having a bit of a brain fart myself and cannot remember when the injector needs to be used...:hehe:

 

[Jananton]

The changing direction part of the reverser I understand, it is the 'half' or 'part' operation of the reverser that I am not clear on. The instructions were saying that once you get up to speed to back off on the reverser a bit if you are on a flat. So that part I am not too clear on.

What about the injector? That is another thing that is a '?' with me.

Thanx,

Geo

Hello Geo,

As Gandalf said, the reverser, or better cutoff with steam engines, is like a transmission, but in contrast to for instance automobiles where a lower gear means more power to the driving wheels, the cutoff works opposite. In cab mode its setting is shown in a percentage from 75% for full foreward to -75% for full backward. The throttle just governs the amount of steam to the cylinders, not it's pressure. So in short, to get a steamtrain from standstill you start with approx. 55% cutoff to avoid wheelspin and gently open the throttle. When everything is rolling lower the cutoff and open up the throttle simultanious until the trottle is 100% and you can control your speed with the cutoff setting. In fact the cutoff system is not a transmission, but a mechanical slider that makes a continuous variable connection from the pistons to the driveshafts. There are a few systems used that all accomplish the same thing. The oldest is the Stephenson, others are Walschaert and Heuzinger.

The injector is for feeding enough water into the boiler to not run dry. The water indicator in cab mode shows how much is there. Best keep it around 75%. Note that when you inject cold water in the boiler the temperature drops and you need to shovel coal to not let the steampressure drop too much.

Hope this helps in the mean time.:hehe:


Greetings from nighttime Amsterdam,

Jan

 

[Ghost42]

re driving

Best steam driving tutorial that I have found:
www.trainzclassics.co.uk/guides_tips/files/Driving_the_9F.pdf

Rog

 

[Steampower4884]

Ahh sorry about the misunderstanding. I was always told to never open it(reverser) all the way while you first start moving open it a little bit then add a little of the throttle, then once you get up to speed you can open it(reverser) a little further, but do not need to open it fully.

Ok, by the tutorial's instructions. I was a bit under the impression that it works the other way around. That you start off with 75% and then you back down. So it was a big vague in that area.

It was like that with the diesel engines too...the tutorial never mentions what to do with the independent brake nor the dynamic brake. However, the dynamic brake I figured out on my own because during the tutorial on assigning drivers jobs I decided to 'ride as a passenger' in the cab and I watched closely what the 'engineer' was doing (the computer shows the movement of the controls). So I picked up on the use of the dynamic brakes that way. I probably should do the same thing with the steam engines, but still I wanted the controls explained to me the proper way.

Hello Geo,

As Gandalf said, the reverser, or better cutoff with steam engines, is like a transmission, but in contrast to for instance automobiles where a lower gear means more power to the driving wheels, the cutoff works opposite. In cab mode its setting is shown in a percentage from 75% for full foreward to -75% for full backward. The throttle just governs the amount of steam to the cylinders, not it's pressure. So in short, to get a steamtrain from standstill you start with approx. 55% cutoff to avoid wheelspin and gently open the throttle. When everything is rolling lower the cutoff and open up the throttle simultanious until the trottle is 100% and you can control your speed with the cutoff setting.

Ok, so from the sound of it you have to start off higher on the reverser and then back off once the throttle is up, right? However, going too high on the reverser COULD cause wheel spin. Just tryiing grasp this concept.

In fact the cutoff system is not a transmission, but a mechanical slider that makes a continuous variable connection from the pistons to the driveshafts. There are a few systems used that all accomplish the same thing. The oldest is the Stephenson, others are Walschaert and Heuzinger.

Ok, Ok....I think I get it now. So bascially the cutoff setting of the reverser has to with how the piston rod connects to the traction rods, thus the less "cut-off" you have the greater the piston throw on the traction rods, right? A long throw would give greater traction but lower top speed, where as once you get moving a shallow throw would give more speed. I THINK I got the idea now.

The injector is for feeding enough water into the boiler to not run dry.

Yes, the tutorial mentioned that. However, I can't tell when the boiler is running low. The glass always seems full.

The water indicator in cab mode shows how much is there. Best keep it around 75%. Note that when you inject cold water in the boiler the temperature drops and you need to shovel coal to not let the steampressure drop too much.

Hope this helps in the mean time.:hehe:

Sure thing. Thanx.

Best steam driving tutorial that I have found:
www.trainzclassics.co.uk/guides_tips/files/Driving_the_9F.pdf

Rog

That's a bum link...but I figured out what went wrong "Driving_the_9F.pdf" isn't underlined. I just put the whole thing in my browser and it works.

Thanx I will check it out later on.

Geo

 

[narrowgauge]

Ok, Ok....I think I get it now. So bascially the cutoff setting of the reverser has to with how the piston rod connects to the traction rods, thus the less "cut-off" you have the greater the piston throw on the traction rods, right? A long throw would give greater traction but lower top speed, where as once you get moving a shallow throw would give more speed. I THINK I got the idea now

No, that is nor quite correct. The piston stroke remains constant, it has to as it is connected to the main drive wheel crankpin. The 'cutoff' controls the time during which steam is admitted to the cylinder. Short cutoff uses less steam but provides less power. 75% cutoff provides steam over the full stroke, the equivalent of low gear in an auto.

I have also read that a common driving practice when starting is to open the throttle full and then slowly advance the reverser 'cutoff lever'.

Peter

 

[Steampower4884]

No, that is nor quite correct. The piston stroke remains constant, it has to as it is connected to the main drive wheel crankpin. The 'cutoff' controls the time during which steam is admitted to the cylinder. Short cutoff uses less steam but provides less power. 75% cutoff provides steam over the full stroke, the equivalent of low gear in an auto.

Ok, I basically got the idea, but I homed in on a different area of the engine. When Jan mentioned it was 'mechanical', I thought of how the driving rods and traction rods were connected.

I have also read that a common driving practice when starting is to open the throttle full and then slowly advance the reverser 'cutoff lever'.

Peter

That was the impression I was under as well.

Last night I did manage to find the 'Engineer's' manual within the Trainz folder and that helped to shed some light on the scene as well. I haven't fully read through the steam part as I was reading up on the diesel part first.

Temporarily shifting gears (pun intended) to diesels...there is very little mentioned in regards to the independent brake. The manual basically describes this as braking just for the engine, but dynamic brakes have a similar effect. So what would the independent brake be used for?

Thanx,
Geo

 

[Jananton]

Ok, I basically got the idea, but I homed in on a different area of the engine. When Jan mentioned it was 'mechanical', I thought of how the driving rods and traction rods were connected.

Hello Geo,

Well, my answer was a little misleading to say the least.:hehe: I actually meant that the driving piston is continous variably linked to the valves of that piston. The cutoff setting via this link in effect governs the timing of the valves in respect to the movement of the piston and the lenght of time steam enters the chamber during a stroke. A nice example animation can be seen here for the Walscheart valve gear. And on a steamlocomotive model (I'm not sure this is trainz btw)

Greetings from overcast Amsterdam,

Jan

 

[Steampower4884]

Hello Geo,

Well, my answer was a little misleading to say the least.:hehe: I actually meant that the driving piston is continous variably linked to the valves of that piston. The cutoff setting via this link in effect governs the timing of the valves in respect to the movement of the piston and the lenght of time steam enters the chamber during a stroke. A nice example animation can be seen here for the Walscheart valve gear. And on a steamlocomotive model (I'm not sure this is trainz btw)

Greetings from overcast Amsterdam,

Jan

Ok, I think I have a clearer picture of how it works now. Now this brings up another question. Because you can control the cut-off, you could use this to 'cuff off' the speed too right? Thus would I be correct in saying that you don't have to reduce the throttle (regulator) when shifting from forward to reverse?

As you can tell, I am curious to how the prototype would operate.

Last night I had the joy of finding the route session with the Flying Scotsman last night. BEEEAUUUTIFUL engine. I was playing with that engine for close to 2 hours last night. What is more, I like that this engine has the controls on the left side (like the drivers side of a car).

One thing though...The Flying Scotsman doesn't have a fireman...so how do you get more coal in the firebox?

Thanx,

Geo

 

[paulhobbs]

One thing though...The Flying Scotsman doesn't have a fireman...so how do you get more coal in the firebox?

Hit SPACE when you are in cab mode.

Paul

 

[Steampower4884]

Hit SPACE when you are in cab mode.

Paul

That still works even without a fireman present?

 

[paulhobbs]

Certainly does, at least in the locos I built and I didn't do anything special.

Paul

 

[Jananton]

Hello Geo,

Ok, I think I have a clearer picture of how it works now. Now this brings up another question. Because you can control the cut-off, you could use this to 'cuff off' the speed too right? Thus would I be correct in saying that you don't have to reduce the throttle (regulator) when shifting from forward to reverse?

As you can tell, I am curious to how the prototype would operate.

Yes, the cutt-off will be used most of the time for governing speed. Some even state that not using 100% throttle is a waste since the steam is there anyhow because of your shoveling.:hehe: In theory you could change direction without ever closing the throttle, or like the dynamic breaks on diesels, give a little reverse cuttoff when going downhill to prevent the break shoes from overheating and your consist picking up too much speed along the way. If this is prototypical however, I can't say for sure. Its probably dependant on the enginetype and the railway operators guidelines.

Last night I had the joy of finding the route session with the Flying Scotsman last night. BEEEAUUUTIFUL engine. I was playing with that engine for close to 2 hours last night. What is more, I like that this engine has the controls on the left side (like the drivers side of a car).

One thing though...The Flying Scotsman doesn't have a fireman...so how do you get more coal in the firebox?

As Paul said, you use the spacebar to shovel coal. It doesn't matter if there's a fireman figure or not. Be aware though that some locomotives have an automatic fireman, so you don't have to shovel coal at all. You can check this in Surveyor mode if you click on the engine after you've activated the question mark button on the rolling stock tab. Also you can set the initial coal, water and sometimes sand amounts there. (For Tank loco's obviously, otherwise coal and water are in the tender so you have to click on that)

Greetings from overcast Amsterdam,

Jan

 

[Steampower4884]

Certainly does, at least in the locos I built and I didn't do anything special.

Paul

You build your own locos? How do you do that?

Hello Geo,



Yes, the cutt-off will be used most of the time for governing speed. Some even state that not using 100% throttle is a waste since the steam is there anyhow because of your shoveling.:hehe: In theory you could change direction without ever closing the throttle, or like the dynamic breaks on diesels, give a little reverse cuttoff when going downhill to prevent the break shoes from overheating and your consist picking up too much speed along the way. If this is prototypical however, I can't say for sure. Its probably dependant on the enginetype and the railway operators guidelines.

After seeing the videos, I did get that impression that you could reverse on the fly without reducing the throttle (regulator). Granted it wouldn't be something I would practice going full steam forward, but in terms of operation, it does remove a step. Being a newbie, I find myself many times in a pinch to hit the brakes pretty hard. It seems that (within Trainz) braking is easier on steam engines then diesels. Diesels 'coast' quite a bit. I can get quite a long run at speed with even the throttle on the '0' position. Then the diesels have the initial brake, then the application brake, and the dynamic brakes. Then there is the lap brake position which I have not fully understood as of yet. Well, there is the independent brake too, but I have not seen that used in any of the scenarios as of yet.

As Paul said, you use the spacebar to shovel coal. It doesn't matter if there's a fireman figure or not.

Yeah, I have noticed that because I tried out the Flying Scotsman earlier today and I can open the door and pushing the space bar DOES make the firebox brighter.

Be aware though that some locomotives have an automatic fireman, so you don't have to shovel coal at all. You can check this in Surveyor mode if you click on the engine after you've activated the question mark button on the rolling stock tab. Also you can set the initial coal, water and sometimes sand amounts there. (For Tank loco's obviously, otherwise coal and water are in the tender so you have to click on that)

Right, yeah, one of the early steam scenarios did mention the right clicking to see that you have the proper resources for steam engines. And you can check the engine's tender for that. I have not run a tank engine as of yet so I have not tried that out.

What I did find weird with Trainz is that the program models the fuel consumption of steam trains, but not diesels. They SHOULD have that modeled as well as I don't think it should be too hard to implement since diesel fuel is a commodity. The same should be true of electric engines if you failed to get coal to the power plant on time...however, I could let this one slide.

Thanx,

Geo

 

[paulhobbs]

You build your own locos? How do you do that?

You haven't been around here long I take it. Start by looking in the Content Creation Support Forum, this question has been asked about a million times - or go to my site (http://www.44090digitalmodels.co.uk) and download the Blender tutorials - don't touch GMax (one of the other alternatives) with barge pole.

Paul

 

[Jananton]

Hello Geo,

the diesels have the initial brake, then the application brake, and the dynamic brakes. Then there is the lap brake position which I have not fully understood as of yet. Well, there is the independent brake too, but I have not seen that used in any of the scenarios as of yet.

Well, brakes on a train are definitly differend from what you do with your left foot in a car.:hehe: For stopping a train at a desired spot on the track you would use brakes that are on every car and the engine itself. This is a hydrolic system most of the time that slowly builds up pressure. The anouncement initial brake is just an indication you're ready to do so. For a precise dose of pressure you go to the lap position (z-key) and then press the (a-key) application brake. As pressure builds up in the brake cylinder, press lap again and depending on the train length and type the pressure build up stops at a certain amount. It takes practice to know how much application you must give before switching back to the lap position to get the right deacceleration needed. (same with steamlocomotives btw)
Dynamic brakes are used when diesels are on a downward slope and are in fact a method to use the motors as braking power. This is something mainly available on diesel-electric driven engines allthough other types can have that too. To use those you have to first set the throttle to the zero position and then press a key to activate dynamic braking (you havo to look up that key in the user guide) and then thottle up again to apply the braking on the engine.
Finally the individual brake will, I think, only be used in shunting operations with an engine without coupled cars.

What I did find weird with Trainz is that the program models the fuel consumption of steam trains, but not diesels. They SHOULD have that modeled as well as I don't think it should be too hard to implement since diesel fuel is a commodity. The same should be true of electric engines if you failed to get coal to the power plant on time...however, I could let this one slide.

In trs2006 these options are available, but since I don't have 2004 I think this is something someone else maybe knows if it is possible with maybe some addons from the DLS.

Greetings from nighttime Amsterdam,

Jan