Need help deleting uneditable splines (TS12)

[wylie]

Ive been working on upgrading an old route to TS12 standards. The map has been saved in CCP, so all the required tags are in the config file. Missing assets have been deleted, and Im basically just going around the route fixing a few problems here and there.

Twice today, ive noticed some splines that I cant delete. The first was a short section of track that I had replaced by hand the day before. I noticed a segment was mis-aligned, but I could not edit it to move the vertex to the correct position. Every time I tried the move it, or to delete it, I would get that "failed" sound - you know, the one that you would get (for example) if there was a train on a track that you were trying to edit. (There is no train on this track)

Since it was a short piece of track, I got around the above problem by moving other items on the map to align them with the track that I couldnt move, and continued on.

Just now, Ive come across a section of road, that I had also edited earlier today, which was fine when I left it, but now, where I had joined 2 sections of road into one continuous piece, I suddenly have a T intersection, with the errant part of the T going off for miles and miles, in mid air, at some points, almost to the edge of the map. Once again, I cant delete this road, though I can delete the other (correct) section... thats just not going to help me.

Apparently its like this in the saved version, as reloading doesnt help. How can I delete this road? TS12 should let me delete any object on the map - especially objects in error (such as splines that run off to the edge of the world, in mid air, such as this).

I dont want to have to start over (yet again) so any advice would be appreciated. I simply want to delete the spline. At this point, losing a few surrounding objects would be fine - I just dont want to lose the entire map.

 

[JCitron]

Hi Wylie,

Check that you're not trying to edit on the wrong layer. The items may have been placed on the Session layer instead of the Route layer or vice a versa.

John

 

[Thai1On]

I had a similar problem on the route I'm building. Mine was with track put the exact same problem. It turned out to be an asset on the route causing problems in TS12. What I did was to chase down run away spline (I have a huge map) and found it attached to a building with a track connection. First try going through your layers and tabs trying to delete the problem and that may help trying to find where it is hiding. Next go on a hunting trip and try to find where the spline attached itself and delete the asset . I hope this helps a little.

Dave

 

[JCitron]

I had a similar problem on the route I'm building. Mine was with track put the exact same problem. It turned out to be an asset on the route causing problems in TS12. What I did was to chase down run away spline (I have a huge map) and found it attached to a building with a track connection. First try going through your layers and tabs trying to delete the problem and that may help trying to find where it is hiding. Next go on a hunting trip and try to find where the spline attached itself and delete the asset . I hope this helps a little.

Dave

Hi Dave,

This was a problem with TRS2010 after a merge. Track, attached to crossings, stations, and other fixed-track objects would send their attached splines all over the map. I spent hours once disconnecting the track from the fixed-track objects before merging. It was not fun to finding that one piece of track going off into space. This issue got fixed in the immediate first patch for TRS2010.

John

 

[sniper297]

No, it's not totally fixed, there are some "fixed track" objects that have a bug. What I call a fixed track object - I have no idea what the correct term is - any static solid object which has spline points for connecting track to, usually industries and grade crossings, but also road intersection objects and fixed track switches.

What does work is selecting the scenery object tool, then deleting the spline or track section which has somehow decided to be a fixed object instead of a spline with that. Which objects to avoid using is still unknown, since apparently nobody knows what actually causes this, and the problem allegedly has been in different versions of Trainz for 10 years.

 

[wylie]

Some good suggestions there. I'm of the opinion that this is a bug, and its definitely still present in TS2012.

Having abandoned the map I was working on and starting over on a new copy (its someone elses old map that Im modifying for my own use) its happened again.

The road that was previously a problem, modified without issue this time. Ive updated it to my liking and this time, its perfect, however there is now a barbed wire fence spline in another area of the map, which is flying off over several base boards, and again, I cant delete it. This is a show stopper for me. If I cant fix it, and considering the other problems that have kept me away from Trainz for the last couple of years (Im trying again with TS12) I think Im just going to give up and look at other alternatives. (read: other software).

Before I do that though, I'll investigate this further. Dave's solution above, about the splines attaching to a building rings a bell. Both the road I mentioned originally, and the barbed wire fence seem to have attached themselves to the *same* building. The building is a small signal box, without any attached track. There are several of this particular signal box around the map, however in both cases the splines have attached themselves to the exact same instance of it, In each case, flying off over several base boards (at least 10) in an easterly direction from different starting points.

I have also seen examples as shown in Sniper297's image, but those have been local to the errant asset and its easy to see what needs deleting. (in those cases its was usually a particular invisible station with attached track).

After my original post, I started over (as I mentioned) and although its an inconvenience, since it clutters the route list, I started numbering each save of the route. I managed to edit various places on the map, adding track, substituting stations etc, and got up to save version 8 before I noticed the fence. On checking, its broken there in save #3 as well, so thats at least 5 saved versions Im going to lose, having not noticed the errant spline until now. I didnt check earlier saves, but losing 5 out of 8, I may as well start over again.

I'll investigate that signal box further, perhaps delete it check its config, and see if I can replace it. As to the other suggestion, I carefully checked that Im on the right layer, the layer isnt locked, and im on the right tool tab for splines, etc, so its not a 'operator error' due to layers, etc. I can happily delete parts of the same spline (either the fence or the road) but not the last segment, which has flown off to be elsewhere, rather than where it previously was placed.

I mentioned earlier, I had not been active in Trainz for a couple of years, mainly due to another show stopping bug (which I consider to be due to the lack of error checking in the exporter plugins). I spent months working on models (some of you may remember) and in the end, while they seem to export fine, without errors, show up properly in CCP, and AssetX, they wont show up in Driver or Surveyor! (Ive tried in TS2006, TS2009, and was about to try again in TS20012, if I could get a decent route together to test them on). All these things combined, If the Trainz software doesn't start co-operating soon, I cant see much point in continuing with it. The exporter thing is a separate issue. If I can solve this spline problem, I'll probably try the exporters again with TS2012 and see if they have improved any. I still plan to complete the models Ive been working on - if the software will let me.

With all the problems Ive had, Im amazed that people can put out so many quality assets. I'm a geek and Im used to fiddling with things and tweaking them until they work, but I wish I knew how certain content creators seem to do it so effortlessly. Just lucky I guess.

The more I think about it, the more I think I recall seeing a similar problem with that same particular signal box years ago - probably in TS2006. I'll keep you posted in this thread.

 

[sniper297]

Does the signal box have spline attachment points? Got a KUID number?

 

[BobCass]

Try Holding Down the shift key upon release of the spline sometimes this helps them from attaching someplace were you don't want it to..

 

[Thai1On]

Wylie, did you delete the signal box? With my problem asset removed everything went back to normal. It is a shame though as it was a great asset too . I to have numbered saves which has been a lifesaver.

Dave

 

[frogpipe]

In the interest of avoiding disaster, what's the KUID of this "Signal Box" of which you speak?

 

[NJCurmudgeon]

I had a problem in Trainz2009 where a scenery spline became uneditable like that. Somehow it turned into track. The delete track button did the trick. This may not be your problem, but it's one more for the list!

 

[frogpipe]

I have had splines:

• Change into objects
• Change from track to spline
• Change from spline to track
• Change layers all by themselves
• Disconnect from objects all by themselves (YARN roads)
• Magically become entangled with themselves (end vertex links back to a vertex midway along the line)
• Track fold inside out on it's self.

One of the biggest things that seems to cause this is CTRL-Z (undo), although deleting can also make it happen.

Save often, and set AUTOSAVE to a short interval - that has saved my &&& on more then one occasion.

I routebuild with 1 extra layer (in addition to the Route and Session that's always there) called Maps which I place map objects on to guide my track and road laying. I find that sometimes when something won't let me edit it, if I merge that extra layer with the route, suddenly I can delete it. I then recreate the extra layer and move the basemap object over to it. I suspect the merging causes a "reshuffling" of the data and fixes whatever it is that goes wonky and makes the spline un-editable.

Maybe if you create a layer, stick anything on it, and then merge it with the route layer, it will liberate the frozen spline?

Just a thought.

 

[wylie]

I went and checked that signal box. It apparently was not the problem. For the curious, it's "Tside Signal Box1", <kuid:-1:100264>. It has no attachment points.

I moved it to the side and the errant spline did not follow, so they werent connected as I had suspected. Its just curious that both times the spline ended up at the same location, which was right under that signal box. (Which wasnt in a corner, so it's not some kind of null reference in the spline position).

Having eliminated the signal box from the list of suspects, the only way I could delete the bad spline segment was to delete the base board where it had ended up (some 10+ boards from where I had placed it), and re-create it from scratch. Luckily there wasnt much on it, but my terrain making skills leave much to be desired - lets just say that after a couple of hours, I dont want to have to do that again. and it's not quite as good as the original.

BobCass:
I use SHIFT when laying track and other things, however this isnt a placement issue. I placed the fence (and previously a road) spline where I wanted it, using SHIFT as needed, confirmed visually that it was there, then saved. When I came back later, the end point was no longer where I had saved it. Its not a problem with me positioning it, it moves on its own (several base boards) after being saved.

Frogpipe:
Autosave annoys me. It seems to wait until I am in the middle of something, then it strikes - freezing me out for several long seconds. I've been meaning to change it from the default 30 mins to 60. I do use "Undo" (CTRL-Z) a lot, I need to pay attention and figure out if thats related in any way. I get what you're saying about the layer reshuffle. That actually makes sense. I'll give it a try if I get stuck again.

So, for the moment, I've gotten around the problem (the hard way) and it hasn't happened again (although I have had a couple more glitches - like level crossings that break after saving... You can set a crossing in Surveyor, test it (drive over it in Driver) then go back into surveyor to find that the track and road are no longer connected. Its taken me several hours (each) to get various crossings saved properly. (the trick seems to be to level the ground below it and all surrounding vertices. It seems to break when at any (even slight) gradient).

This suggests to me that Trainz has issues in storing/validating data, as both the spline thing and the crossings occur after saving. I do hope Auran/N3V etc pay some attention to that in the next release.

Thanks for all the suggestions

 

[sniper297]

"level crossings that break after saving... You can set a crossing in Surveyor, test it (drive over it in Driver) then go back into surveyor to find that the track and road are no longer connected."

There's your culprit causing the spline problems. Whatever that level crossing is, lose it.

 

[BobCass]

You Know gang..I have replaced entire tables because in one certain area it slows your frame rate way down..It looks like the tables themselves are charged with a certain amount of energy..I notice this alot particularly when I'm using the height tool..you ever really look at the edge of your table..It looks like there is acharge in each line of yellow on the table..Have you ever join two tables together at different heights??Sometimes at those joint your sure get a lot of strange looking things..From high cones with holes in the skin etc..

 

[BobCass]

?????

 

[Dermmy]

That's something different Bob - you get that sometimes at the edge of a DEM - see you have DEM data one side but flat terrain on the other?

 

[BobCass]

No Dermmy..I was Trying to show What happens if you join tables at different Heights..It does Look kind squirrly through..

 

[wylie]

"level crossings that break after saving... You can set a crossing in Surveyor, test it (drive over it in Driver) then go back into surveyor to find that the track and road are no longer connected."

There's your culprit causing the spline problems. Whatever that level crossing is, lose it.

Hmm. Really? Because its not just one level crossing. Its been several, (different assets) and also a couple of different stations. I've even replaced them with different assets, with the same results. I just figured that any scenery object with track/road attachments was potentially the same. Its so sensitive at times, that it takes me 3 or 4 goes to get it and the ground below it exactly level, so that the spline attachments dont break as described, once ive saved it and came back.

As for the original problem. Ive had no re-occurrence since deleting that base board where the spline end had wandered off to. Drastic, yes, but the only way to delete the spline, and it seems to have fixed it. The problem above is still occurring though - I fixed a previously "finished" station earlier tonight, but that doesnt happen often.

 

[JCitron]

The old spewing spline thing used to be an issue a long time ago with the Undo function. I wonder if this is the problem after all.