MSTS2 or TRAINZ 2010?

[NikkiA]

To get ever so slightly back on topic...

I just noticed that OpenRails have announced that tomorrow will see a second public beta release... Along with including the first OpenRails-specific[1] locomotive

Fictional Class 35 Mikado for OpenRails

So, we'll get to see tomorrow how that project is coming along

[1] for anyone not aware, OpenRails uses MSTS assets as-is, and so has a HUGE catalog of locomotives already available, but uses a more modern 3d system so can display much more detailed models than MSTS is capable of.

 

[JCitron]

'GOTO n' would transfer execution to basic line number n, some implementations allowed variables to specified as the target line number. Unlike GOSUB, GOTO does not save the current line number, so it is not possible to use any method such as RETURN to continue execution prior to the branch.

As for proving I (and it's 'she' btw) learnt basic on the 8 bits, I suppose the only way that I could really do that, would be to point out that sinclair basic had an additional method for defining subprograms besides GOSUB, that used DEF FN and FN to specify (rather short) functions that could return a value.

I'm not really sure how you 'fall foul' of GOTO though, I mean, it does what it says, I can't recall any major caveats with it - I mean, in sinclair basic and others you could subsitute 'RUN n' instead of 'GO TO n' and it would do the same thing, but it would reset the variables when 'RUN n' is used.

I actually learnt Z80 machine language/assembler on the sinclairs too, so maybe:

print-string:
         PUSH    AF
         PUSH    HL
         LD      HL, string-address
loop:    LD      A, (HL)
         CP      '$'
         JR      Z, end
         RST     10h
         INC     HL
         JR      loop
end:     POP     HL
         POP     AF
         RET

would be a better display of 80s-ness

I did enjoy the comment regarding tub thumping as to who started first and on what. Well I will throw one up to see if anybody can beat this. My first computer was a Dragon 32 which were made in South Wales UK. There was no disk drive so you had to connect a tape cassette recorder to save anything you had done while it was switched on. We all used to buy the computer magazines which would have the coding for games printed in them and which you then had to retype into the computer before you could do anything.

After hours of typing you would excitedly try to run your new game, only to be met by the dreaded crash of the program with the message "syntax error". What a letdown, we would all have to wait till next week when the magazine would print a correction to be typed in. However, the upside of this was that many of us learned basic programming so that we could correct that programs ourselves. It was also not long before the games came out on cassette with each having to be produced for the individual make of computer.

Well, did anyone have an earlier computer than this. I believe there were only a few made one being the now famous spectrum and another was the BBC. Did anyone on the forum have experiences with these, I am sure we would love to hear.

Bill

We could start our own old computer club here.

My very first computer was an Atari 800, which was of the same generation as the Spectrum and the Apple ][.

Later on in 1983, I became a hardware technician for a company that made early CP/M-Plus (CP/M 3.0) based machines. and later on IBM PC-compatible portables. The CP/M system came with two processors - a Z80 for the main system, and a 6502 for the video. There was a whopping 128K of bank-switched system RAM, and 32K of video RAM.

At this time, I was taking programming classes and assembly language was the big deal back then. It was Z-80 Assembler no less, and I was writing small programs using and testing them with Zsid, the Z-80 System Instruction Debugger. We would use Edlin to write the programs and run them in Zsid. Later on I got lazy and used WordStar(tm) in non-document mode to write the code because I could cut and paste and edit the code much more easily. Come to think about it, didn't coding programs move in that direction?

Anyway, my Atari was my gaming machine, and I too used to get computer magazines like Byte with its programs in BASIC. I used to spend hours typing them in only to have the programs crash. What was worse, this was before there was a hard disk, and the floppy was too expensive so I'd have to save out the programs to cassette tape. I think it was worse loading in the programs from tape because it would take forever to load the program, if there was a glitch, the system would have to be rebooted and the download would have to be started all over again!

I did have a train simulation of sorts for the Atari. It was a top down, fake 3D view and the graphics were pretty bad. The game had some funky looking track and placed objects that were supposed to be industries. The goal was to deliver goods and make money to expand the empire. If you couldn't make enough money, the game would pull up track and abandon your railroad to pay off the creditors. Once you made it to the right edge of the screen, after serving customers, the game would advance to the next level. I don't recall how many levels because I lost interest in the program soon after I had played it for awhile.

Ah those good-ole days of computing!

John

 

[Vern]

Fixed that for you, because lets remember, the 380 isn't in service yet, and given that it was designed for GARL, which likely isn't being built, and the 380 built dates should have resulted in some early units running by now, may never be built...

I'm guessing if you were following that conversation, you also probably had a chuckle about me getting an 'official warning'

I had to Google Baghdad Bob though as I hadn't heard that one before!

The 380 is actually not that bad at least physics wise (I bought GARL before the price hike). I can only assume as it was originally intended as a professional derivation and driver training aid for Scotrail they took a bit more care over that side of things.

 

[teddytoot]

My first computer in 1979 was a UK101 kit which was frankly a modified (illegal?) copy of the Ohio Superboard - 2MHz 6502, 8Kb RAM, Bill Gates' original BASIC in 8Kb ROM and a 2Kb operating system and a b/w 48x16 character display on a TV. Data storage was at 300bps on a cassette tape. It was great fun in those early pioneering days when things were simple and one assembled add-ons from kits and experimented. Also working as a self-taught computing teacher (as we all were then as we were the first) I worked with a Research Machines 380Z (Z80 processor and CP/M operating system). Ah the "useful" error message "bdos error on A" !

This was followed by a BBC Model B and then an Atari ST which were steps on the way to the consumer product PC we have nowadays, a fantastic machine compared to the originals but I miss the excitement of the sense of all of us being in the same boat learning how to use these simple machines as we went along.

 

[wholbr]

Hey Nikky you won, (your prize is in the post) so who wants to get back on topic, at least for a posting or two.

John, i certainly do remember those magazines. That’s what I was referring to in my posting. After hours of typing it was ether rubbish or it didn’t work at all. You felt like chucking the computer out the window. Can’t remember that they were in dos, thought they where in basic but you could be right.

However they where the reason I learnt basic programming besides the fact there was nothing else to do on those computers. As an after thought, I bet Nikky never ever went to the trouble of typing those programs in.



They are the hallmark of us real veterans

Bill:clap:

 

[NikkiA]

I had to Google Baghdad Bob though as I hadn't heard that one before!

The thing is, I honestly can't see the community here putting up with Zec, or any other Auran staff, doing that level of jedi-mind-trick-handwavery 'there are no bugs in trainz!' stuff here. Not even once.

And that's on official Auran forums. The amount of leway that derek gets on that over there is disgusting, as is his 'my views are my own.... but I'm going to use a username that makes certain you know I'm RSDL staff' approach, and his hawking the DLC at every chance... It all makes me feel sick.

 

[NikkiA]

Hey Nikky you won, (your prize is in the post) so who wants to get back on topic, at least for a posting or two.

See my above comment about OpenRail's (kinda MSTS 1.5, sort of public release tomorrow, and the screenshot of their 40,000 polygon Mikado NG...

As an after thought, I bet Nikky never ever went to the trouble of typing those programs in.

Oh, I most certainly did. In fact, the worst case of typing in type-ins was when I sat down with the neighbour's kid and spent 4 hours on a searingly hot 1981 summer to type in a 'Deathrace 2000' clone into his VIC-20 - his parents were the local (at the time) richies, so he got a computer before the rest of us, despite him being 8 or so...

Only to get to the end and discover that a) his parents hadn't seen fit to buy him a tape drive or any other storage device, and b) when we ran it, it just rebooted the computer and that was that.

We stared at the vic-20 cyan/white start screen for about 5 seconds and said 'well, THAT was a fun afternoon...'

 

[wholbr]

Oh, I most certainly did. In fact, the worst case of typing in type-ins was when I sat down with the neighbour's kid and spent 4 hours on a searingly hot 1981 summer to type in a 'Deathrace 2000' clone into his VIC-20 - his parents were the local (at the time) richies, so he got a computer before the rest of us, despite him being 8 or so...

Only to get to the end and discover that a) his parents hadn't seen fit to buy him a tape drive or any other storage device, and b) when we ran it, it just rebooted the computer and that was that.

We stared at the vic-20 cyan/white start screen for about 5 seconds and said 'well, THAT was a fun afternoon...'

It probably was not funny at the time, but I find it absolutely hilarious now.

There must be some good stories in this thread. As stated we were all self-taught by our experiences in those early days. I wonder how many went on to make their careers through what they had learned. One who did go on to make his career through his early days of learning was one with the name of "Bill Gates". Why didn't we all do the same (perhaps some on this forum did).

Speaking for myself, I spent all my working life in the road haulage industry and I was an HGV driver in the Mid 80s. We had three children (all girls) in secondary education. I upgraded our computer to an Amstrad 128 because it was one of the first computers with a disk drive (oh joy), and you could buy the first word processors to use with it.

As soon as it was in the house the girls took it over to do their homework on giving me less time to learn programming. In fact I had less time overall to maintain my interest in computing. At the same time as this was going on workplace health and safety was on the rise here in the UK following new legislation.

I was asked if I would take up the position of Depot Health and Safety Representative by the company I worked for. It was a move that was to take over the rest of my working life. I progressed through various positions with the steady rise in the emphasis on workplace safety plus the rise in the Claims Culture that continues to this day. Therefore the need to learn word processing, spreadsheets and reading such things as case history, court rulings etc became lifes emphasis.

Looking back on how I progressed and how Bill Gates progressed I could feel I made the wrong choice. But no, I have been married to the best woman in the world for over 40 years, have three wonderful grown-up girls who we see almost every day along with their/our grandchildren. Looking back I certainly would not change a thing.

How about the rest of you self-taught computer early learners, how did you progress. Did you use your newfound talents, or like me did you go on to do other things continuing your computing as a hobby or interest. There must be some great stories out there from those who have posted on this thread. I am sure we'd all like to hear them.

Bill

 

[JCitron]

It probably was not funny at the time, but I find it absolutely hilarious now.

There must be some good stories in this thread. As stated we were all self-taught by our experiences in those early days. I wonder how many went on to make their careers through what they had learned. One who did go on to make his career through his early days of learning was one with the name of "Bill Gates". Why didn't we all do the same (perhaps some on this forum did).

Speaking for myself, I spent all my working life in the road haulage industry and I was an HGV driver in the Mid 80s. We had three children (all girls) in secondary education. I upgraded our computer to an Amstrad 128 because it was one of the first computers with a disk drive (oh joy), and you could buy the first word processors to use with it.

As soon as it was in the house the girls took it over to do their homework on giving me less time to learn programming. In fact I had less time overall to maintain my interest in computing. At the same time as this was going on workplace health and safety was on the rise here in the UK following new legislation.

I was asked if I would take up the position of Depot Health and Safety Representative by the company I worked for. It was a move that was to take over the rest of my working life. I progressed through various positions with the steady rise in the emphasis on workplace safety plus the rise in the Claims Culture that continues to this day. Therefore the need to learn word processing, spreadsheets and reading such things as case history, court rulings etc became lifes emphasis.

Looking back on how I progressed and how Bill Gates progressed I could feel I made the wrong choice. But no, I have been married to the best woman in the world for over 40 years, have three wonderful grown-up girls who we see almost every day along with their/our grandchildren. Looking back I certainly would not change a thing.

How about the rest of you self-taught computer early learners, how did you progress. Did you use your newfound talents, or like me did you go on to do other things continuing your computing as a hobby or interest. There must be some great stories out there from those who have posted on this thread. I am sure we'd all like to hear them.

Bill

Well Bill I ended up in the hardware support side of things for many years. My early ventures in computers became a career because I was paying for my college degree. I was supposed to work for a year then go to the New England Conservatory of Music as a piano performance major. Well 30 years later, and I'm still in computers whether I like it or not! I recently spent the past 9 months again in college as a music major, but my unemployment office threatened me with cutting off my benefits if I don't go back to work.

In part my early days of fun computing came about because I was working with them at the time. I needed to perform computer diagnostics on the early PC-like systems I was fixing. The programs were written using Forth, BASIC, Fortran, and Pascal. The operating systems were Ontel/OS, CP/M, and MS-DOS. Being the curious person I am who likes to poke around, and the fact that I needed to exercise the electronics to perform diagnostics and repairs, I learned the early command line interface. Before I knew it, I was the CP/M expert in the department. After I learned Z-80 Assembler, I wrote some memory tests. They were simple, but they helped in the testing process.

As time went on, I moved away from programming and focused on the hardware. I eventually ended up in MIS and then network support after computer rooms disappeared. Over the years I've seen many areas grow out of these early fun days. The early times were fun and full of experimenting. The early pioneers I think had more fun than the developers do today. Today things are controlled by big companies, and it takes an army of people to make a product. Back in the early days, someone in a garage or back bedroom could come up with a product that was exciting and a real money maker.

So what started as a curious hobby had become a career. To this day I am still involved even though it has been a reluctant choice for me. Music is my soul, but unfortunately we don't survice on soul food alone.

John

 

[ct_krogen]

can't do anything, you can ipotral... i just spend teh last two hours sending trainz to other users;;;;;


The main downside for me is being stuck with your Train, and not being able to interact with anything, or to fly off and do something else. It's all just a bit too sterile and samey. Railworks is little better in this respect I find.[/quote]

 

[GeorgeCW]

Anyone remember the good old commadore 64, My first true love! I remember they had in one of their mags a basic programe of a small switching yard.

 

[Vern]

Take back what I said about the Class 380 physics. set up a run on the Hagen to Sigen route, ran up to 140 km/h and at 10% throttle was still trying to accelerate - ridiculous. There's a new GE Dash 9 they just released and the physics has been ripped to shreds in a 40 page post on Trainsim.com.

In terms of the OP's premise, even from a balanced viewpoint between the two sims I have to come down on the side of Trainz. In terms of route building what's the point in spending the twice as long it takes to construct a line in RW than TRS, if the motive power is going to roll up your painstakingly modelled gradients in Notch 2?

Trainz physics isn't perfect but a darn sight more accurate than RW!

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

Trainz DCC physics is better than RailFail physics, now that it has basic physics model attached to it's operation.

Cab physics in Trainz TS2010 is head and shoulders above either MSTS or RailFail.

So much crap written about Trainz by MSTS & RW fanatics, when most of the time they have not even used Trainz, in the last 3 or 4 years.

I have been running OR the last couple of days, now that does look promising. With the protection given to RW on UKtwatsim, where critisism is outlawed and the two RS.com representatives are given "holier than though" status. I hope that RW sinks into the mire under it`s top heavy payware slanted mediocrity.

I would be quite happy with Trainz and OR as my railsims of choice, in the future.

IKB.

 

[Vern]

UKTS seems to have become an advert for RW payware these days. Back in the days when I did a bit of payware for MSTS, we were stopped under NDA from discussing it on forums and the kind of blatant promotion you see going on now would never have been allowed on the forum.

Just doing a bit of research into doing a Trainz route as having not released one for the last 3 years it's high time to balance the equation a bit.

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

Agree Vern and regardless of the fact i have more payware for RW than is good for me.

I feel there has to be a happy medium between free and pay.

I do quite often think that there is not enough payware for Trainz.

A UK route or three would be lovely, with included stock.

Like the 3DTrainstuff Cambrian 2 addon or the MT Scottish Central package.

I also think that RS.com and UKTS are too much in each others pockets, which is an unhealthy situation. When it comes to objectivity and a non biased approach, to one sim or another.

It was the same with MSTS & Trainz on UKTS, one of the reasons i was banned from there. Always too much bias and shouting down in favour of MSTS.

I think you would agree, that although this is an Auran, financed and hosted forum. There is far more leeway given here to criticise and voice objective and free opinions on Trainz. Than exists in regards RW elsewhere.

IKB.

 

[RRSignal]

Anyone remember the good old commadore 64, My first true love! I remember they had in one of their mags a basic programe of a small switching yard.

One of the few oldies that I never used.

But if you want to tinker, you can get emulators and programs for the C-64, Apple ][, etc. at romnation.net or doperoms.com.

 

[j_maybury]

Hey Nikky you won, (your prize is in the post) so who wants to get back on topic, at least for a posting or two.

John, i certainly do remember those magazines. That’s what I was referring to in my posting. After hours of typing it was ether rubbish or it didn’t work at all. You felt like chucking the computer out the window. Can’t remember that they were in dos, thought they where in basic but you could be right.

Wooops...My bad, ....your right it was in Basic.
My memory chips are not what they used to be, these days. :hehe:

 

[wholbr]

Hi Everybody.
I cannot believe this thread has been bumped up again, but don't get me wrong but I think it must be one of the most enjoyable threads on the forum for longtime. I was still having a chuckle about some of the comments and happenings with early computers even after I got into bed the other night.

With that in mind our three daughters and the grandchildren came over for Sunday lunch today being bank holiday. I was telling them about thread and we started discussing our 1980s computers. I didn't realize that we must of been one of the first parents at their school to provide our kids with a computer the Amstrad 128. For that machine we also obtained an early word processor (I think it was a WordStar but I could be wrong)

My oldest daughter hadn't told me before today, but when she took her first piece of homework into school typed upon that word processor there was quite a bit of fuss. The geography teacher who she handed the homework into complained to the headmaster that she felt it was cheating and unfair to other pupils that children were using "newfangled processors" instead of writing everything by hand in the traditional way. Luckily for my daughter the headmaster dismissed the teachers complaints.

We have come an awful long way since those early years, perhaps in this case for the better. I wonder what she would say about me using speech to text software as I am now? There would be a loud scream when told I suspect.

Bill

 

[Smileyman]

I know this thread has drifted on and off topic a few times, but I couldn't resist commenting on the old computers conversation.

My first computer was a Dragon 32 which were made in South Wales UK.

Yay!

We all used to buy the computer magazines which would have the coding for games printed in them and which you then had to retype into the computer before you could do anything.

After hours of typing you would excitedly try to run your new game, only to be met by the dreaded crash of the program with the message "syntax error".

Lol, I remember that very well.

Here's the 3 issues of Amstrad Computer User that my games were printed in (1986-1988):

....

....

As far as I know, corrections weren't needed, but they did seem to get at least one type-in game wrong a month.
A common error was they'd print the same page of code twice, and you wouldn't realise until you reached the second page.

Normal service may now be resumed.

Smiley.

 

[j_maybury]

We have come an awful long way since those early years, perhaps in this case for the better. I wonder what she would say about me using speech to text software as I am now? There would be a loud scream when told I suspect.

Oh! Bill don't get me started on these things.

The first Speach to text I had was one made by Phillips, It went somthing like this.

"Mary add a little land at fleas was wheat as no" ..........(Delete,delete. delete.delete,delete,delete.)