MSTS2 or TRAINZ 2010?

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

Same as teddytoot i started with the Polish Mechanik, BVE and then Trainmaster. Followed by MSTS which i used continuously up till about a year ago, from it's release in 2001. Even released a fictional route for MSTS, which was rubbish, so best forgotten.

Bought the first ( CE ) version of Trainz and every Auran version since, excepting TC1 & 2.

Also own RS & RW, both not installed, being no more than train games and top heavy with payware.

Quite happy using TS2010 and nothing else and looking forward to the next release of Trainz.

IKB.

 

[NikkiA]

Well, if we're going to get technical about it, I started with 'Southern Belle' (and then 'Evening Star') but could never get the hang of braking (in time) on it - it hardly had a user-friendly control scheme, being even more 'simulation' in terms of controls than MSTS, RW, and trainz cab mode *put together*

 

[Vern]

I started with Simudrive, which never admitted it was text based in the advertising blurb. Opened game to be presented with very DOS'ey text screen "Birmingham New Street - Waiting Departure. Signal RED.

No sign of the constant arrivals and departures, Class 45's idling in the spurs or Holliday Street Tunnel.

However it had a physics implementation that could still teach the contemporary sims a thing or two.

Anyhow just to re-iterate. There is no MSTS2. Railworks which evolved from its predecessor Rail Simulator was coded by Kuju and there are many similarities to how MSTS did/does things (even down to the obscure procedures) there would have been almighty litigation if Kuju had used any MSTS2 code. In fact, urban legend has it, when M$ fired Kuju they actually made a corporate raid on the Surrey offices to remove all materials related to the project.

Agree with Nikkia that TRS still needs proper independant despatch/signalling of trains at the core level, as it is far from realistic to keep changing points as you progress along the route. If Auran focused on that rather than demented trees they could kill Railworks and its payware obsessions (£24.99 for GARL, a six mile semi fictional route with one limited use EMU, they're having a giraffe) stone dead.

 

[wholbr]

Hi There
Funny how nearly everyone posting on this thread seem to have started their trainsim days in the same manner. I too started with MSTS and ran it for quite some time before trying out the disastrous railsim. Following that I did not have a train simulator for some time but I did dabble in BVE to some extent.

Although the driving experience was good especially for a free simulator I soon found that to create anything yourself in the way of routes you had to have a university degree in mathematics especially trigonometry. That I certainly do not have (it was most definitely my worst subject at school) so it was not long before that to was consigned to the recycle bin.

I have looked at open BVE which from the demo certainly looks very promising for a free simulator. But without doubt I shall continue with trainz as the Main simulator and I look forward to the next version and the ones following that. I will someday have my dream of viewing my trainz in glorious 3-D. Having seen the film Avatar in that spectrum nothing else will satisfy me.

Seriously though, it's nice to see forum members posting on this thread looking to the future of their interest/hobby in the realization that the company that produces the product we all love so much cannot stand still.

As one very famous American said:-

ask not what your trainz simulator can do for you, ​

but what you can do for your trainz simulator​

:hehe:
Bill
​

 

[IsambardKingdomBrunel]

Railworks and its payware obsessions (£24.99 for GARL, a six mile semi fictional route with one limited use EMU, they're having a giraffe) stone dead.

Which i see on uktwatsim, will be a necessary purchase. As freeware route creators seem to be saying, it will be legitimate to include GARL assets in freeware routes.

So that has alienated me even further against RailFail.

As some poxy six mile long route to an airport, does not interest me in the slightest. Particularly as it is set in the modern era.

I see this thread has turned into a "i did it before you" chest thumping exercise. :hehe:

IKB.

 

[bassist118]

im planning to buy a new train sim...i went looking and found 2 games that look good....MSTS2 and TRS2010 witch shuid i get?

Isn't that a bit like comming on here and saying "which is the best form of transport trains or busses?"

Get 2010 as it exists and you wont have your tongue stuck up Bill Gates' A~~~ and you'll have the best train sim to boot. And listen up everybody
2010 HAS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT ONLY SOME USERS HAVE THINGS WRONG WITH THEM.

Sorry about the ranting



Andy

 

[clam1952]

Hi There
Funny how nearly everyone posting on this thread seem to have started their trainsim days in the same manner. I too started with MSTS and ran it for quite some time before trying out the disastrous railsim. Following that I did not have a train simulator for some time but I did dabble in BVE to some extent.

Although the driving experience was good especially for a free simulator I soon found that to create anything yourself in the way of routes you had to have a university degree in mathematics especially trigonometry. That I certainly do not have (it was most definitely my worst subject at school) so it was not long before that to was consigned to the recycle bin.

I have looked at open BVE which from the demo certainly looks very promising for a free simulator. But without doubt I shall continue with trainz as the Main simulator and I look forward to the next version and the ones following that. I will someday have my dream of viewing my trainz in glorious 3-D. Having seen the film Avatar in that spectrum nothing else will satisfy me.

Seriously though, it's nice to see forum members posting on this thread looking to the future of their interest/hobby in the realization that the company that produces the product we all love so much cannot stand still.

As one very famous American said:-

ask not what your trainz simulator can do for you, ​

but what you can do for your trainz simulator​

:hehe:
Bill
​

Also had a look at Open BVE looks good however route building seems to be done by coding so isn't likely to be very appealing to those artistic non programmer types who create routes. Think they have gone a bit too geeky on that side of things, may change given time so worth keeping an eye on. Also doesn't seem to anything remotely steam related yet, or I didn't find anything, again that may change.

Trouble with open source is that often at some point there is almost certain to be a split and parting of ways and you end up with half finished projects that are going nowhere.

 

[NikkiA]

If Auran focused on that rather than demented trees they could kill Railworks and its payware obsessions (£24.99 for GARL, a six mile semi fictional route with one limited semi-fictional use EMU, they're having a giraffe) stone dead.

Fixed that for you, because lets remember, the 380 isn't in service yet, and given that it was designed for GARL, which likely isn't being built, and the 380 built dates should have resulted in some early units running by now, may never be built...

I'm guessing if you were following that conversation, you also probably had a chuckle about me getting an 'official warning'

 

[NikkiA]

Also had a look at Open BVE looks good however route building seems to be done by coding so isn't likely to be very appealing to those artistic non programmer types who create routes. Think they have gone a bit too geeky on that side of things, may change given time so worth keeping an eye on. Also doesn't seem to anything remotely steam related yet, or I didn't find anything, again that may change.

Trouble with open source is that often at some point there is almost certain to be a split and parting of ways and you end up with half finished projects that are going nowhere.

OpenRails probably has more promise than OpenBVE, but OpenRails are being tightlipped with their beta, it was public for a very short while before going private again.

OpenBVE is what happens when someone gets OCD about train simulation - having to stop within 2m of the platform marker or else it considers it a failed stop is a little excessive, there has to be a balance/compromise between some reality, and some fun-ness, especially when you can't simulate tactile feedback.

 

[j_maybury]

Kuju went from MSTS to RailSimulator. RailWorks is a repackaging of RailSimulator with a few (and I mean, very very few) bug fixes by the new owners of the code (A company that was formed to produce payware locos for RailSimulator called 'Rail Simulator Developments LTD' - aka RSDL).

Neither RailSimulator nor Railworks are 'MSTS Compatible' per se, although they do use some of the MSTS tools for content creation, and the keymappings are similar.

Kuju were working on the first MSTS2 (and pretty much completed it, by all accounts), before leaving MS to work with EA on 'RailSimulator', so in some aspects RailSimulator is likely very similar to what the first MSTS2 would have been like, although the Kuju MSTS2 was an expansion of the original MSTS 3d engine, rather than a rewrite.

The second MSTS2 is the one that many run into on the net, as the videos on YouTube and the MSTS2 website still exist. This had NO input from Kuju at all, and was developed by MS's 'Aces' department - who were also responsible for MS Flight Simulator. When MS axes Aces last year, any hope of MSTS2 finally died.

However... Aces Studio decided to go it alone, and may well be working on their own train simulator, they are now 'Cascade Game Foundry', and their press release when they created the new company also announced that their first product would be 'The light at the end of the tunnel - a new simulation project', which rather heavily hints at a train sim. That said, they also said 'keep posted for news in the next few weeks', this was over 6 months ago.

Hi all,
Cascade Game Foundry have plans for some new simulators, but I think Auran crown is safe for the time-being as cash flow seems to be a problem for them right now, for they need to make a game that will sell well in todays climet, it looks like there going with a glider sim, for some strange resson, I think that may be a big mistake....See what you think when you have a read of this http://www.gamestm.co.uk/features/the-simulation-game/

 

[NikkiA]

...

it looks like there going with a glider sim, for some strange resson, I think that may be a big mistake....See what you think when you have a read of this http://www.gamestm.co.uk/features/the-simulation-game/

I don't feel any more convinced in any direction after reading that... They're purposefully sending mixed signals about what they're planning to work on, there is the photo of them at a desk with the RR crossing sign on it, then there is the screenshot of the flight sim X glider - not a screenshot from anything in development though. Some of the remarks in the article are FS-centric, but then that's what Aces were best known for, so it would be expected. Then there is the photo with what is presumably Puget sound, and a hydrofoil, in the background, maybe they're planning on taking on Lighthouse/Paradox with a ship simulator.

We'll find out when we find out, I guess.

 

[wholbr]

OpenRails probably has more promise than OpenBVE, but OpenRails are being tightlipped with their beta, it was public for a very short while before going private again.

Hi Everybody.
I tinkered around with the original BVE simulator which I believe the original code was written by a Japanese student while he was obtaining his degree in an American university. It was a drive only simulator, meaning that you could not leave the cab for any outside camera action be that on stations, trackside or free view of the entire train. As I said within these limitations it was a good simulator with regard to graphics that was only from the cab view.

The problem was when laying track or trackside objects everything had to be done by direct coding into the simulator itself. There were only a few basic commands which were easily learnt but mathematics especially trigonometry was used to actually lay the track. This was easily enough done when you are only laying a single line. The problems come when you wish to lay duel track. (It certainly did for me anyway) you have to continuously calculate using trigonometry the curve of the track especially between the various rails and at the same time maintaining the distance between the rails, all by mathematics.

I believe that open BVE is still using the same system, but on a recent foray to the website, the developer of the Trainsim is talking about an upgrade or even a new simulator which will use a different method of route building. It's all very interesting stuff and could become something better than the usual open projects as all the main programming has been done by one person who seems to have worked very hard to bring the project to where it is now. However, I do not believe it will ever challenge our great Trainz platform.

I did enjoy the comment regarding tub thumping as to who started first and on what. Well I will throw one up to see if anybody can beat this. My first computer was a Dragon 32 which were made in South Wales UK. There was no disk drive so you had to connect a tape cassette recorder to save anything you had done while it was switched on. We all used to buy the computer magazines which would have the coding for games printed in them and which you then had to retype into the computer before you could do anything.

After hours of typing you would excitedly try to run your new game, only to be met by the dreaded crash of the program with the message "syntax error". What a letdown, we would all have to wait till next week when the magazine would print a correction to be typed in. However, the upside of this was that many of us learned basic programming so that we could correct that programs ourselves. It was also not long before the games came out on cassette with each having to be produced for the individual make of computer.

Well, did anyone have an earlier computer than this. I believe there were only a few made one being the now famous spectrum and another was the BBC. Did anyone on the forum have experiences with these, I am sure we would love to hear.

Bill

 

[NikkiA]

I did enjoy the comment regarding tub thumping as to who started first and on what. Well I will throw one up to see if anybody can beat this. My first computer was a Dragon 32 which were made in South Wales UK. There was no disk drive so you had to connect a tape cassette recorder to save anything you had done while it was switched on. We all used to buy the computer magazines which would have the coding for games printed in them and which you then had to retype into the computer before you could do anything.

After hours of typing you would excitedly try to run your new game, only to be met by the dreaded crash of the program with the message "syntax error". What a letdown, we would all have to wait till next week when the magazine would print a correction to be typed in. However, the upside of this was that many of us learned basic programming so that we could correct that programs ourselves. It was also not long before the games came out on cassette with each having to be produced for the individual make of computer.

Well, did anyone have an earlier computer than this. I believe there were only a few made one being the now famous spectrum and another was the BBC. Did anyone on the forum have experiences with these, I am sure we would love to hear.

Bill

Well, as I said, my first train driving sim was 'Southern Belle' by Hewson on the spectrum in 1983, but that was a commercial release...

The first 'train related' game I played, was a very very basic simulation of signalman duties, that was a type-in game for the zx81 published in a magazine in 1981

 

[j_maybury]

Well, as I said, my first train driving sim was 'Southern Belle' by Hewson on the spectrum in 1983, but that was a commercial release...

The first 'train related' game I played, was a very very basic simulation of signalman duties, that was a type-in game for the zx81 published in a magazine in 1981

Yes I think we'v got a winner, unless someone wrote a game for a realy old ticker-tape office computer.

@nikkia...... Yes I saw the rail sign on the desk, but I dismist it as being someone's nerdy status symbol.

I had the southen bell one but on the commerdor 64.

 

[RRSignal]

I had an Apple ][ which is about the same genre but no train games. As a hobbyist, though, I did work with a few earlier systems as well as designing my own, often more primitive systems.

 

[wholbr]

Yes I think we'v got a winner, unless someone wrote a game for a realy old ticker-tape office computer.

Yes I agree a deserved winner (or should be).I did not realize that it was the early 80s that these computers came out, simply does not seem that long ago,(i must be getting old).

However, the winner should have to prove he/she also learned basic programming on that machine. Basic was the only language around, so do they know what the famous command GOTO did (not being able to answer disqualifies). Any true owner/programmer of these early machines would have defiantly fell foul of that command any number of times.


Bill

 

[NikkiA]

Yes I agree a deserved winner (or should be).I did not realize that it was the early 80s that these computers came out, simply does not seem that long ago,(i must be getting old).

However, the winner should have to prove he/she also learned basic programming on that machine. Basic was the only language around, so do they know what the famous command GOTO did (not being able to answer disqualifies). Any true owner/programmer of these early machines would have defiantly fell foul of that command any number of times.


Bill

'GOTO n' would transfer execution to basic line number n, some implementations allowed variables to specified as the target line number. Unlike GOSUB, GOTO does not save the current line number, so it is not possible to use any method such as RETURN to continue execution prior to the branch.

As for proving I (and it's 'she' btw) learnt basic on the 8 bits, I suppose the only way that I could really do that, would be to point out that sinclair basic had an additional method for defining subprograms besides GOSUB, that used DEF FN and FN to specify (rather short) functions that could return a value.

I'm not really sure how you 'fall foul' of GOTO though, I mean, it does what it says, I can't recall any major caveats with it - I mean, in sinclair basic and others you could subsitute 'RUN n' instead of 'GO TO n' and it would do the same thing, but it would reset the variables when 'RUN n' is used.

I actually learnt Z80 machine language/assembler on the sinclairs too, so maybe:

print-string:
         PUSH    AF
         PUSH    HL
         LD      HL, string-address
loop:    LD      A, (HL)
         CP      '$'
         JR      Z, end
         RST     10h
         INC     HL
         JR      loop
end:     POP     HL
         POP     AF
         RET

would be a better display of 80s-ness

 

[RRSignal]

Assembly rules, even today.

 

[wholbr]

Hi There Everybody.
Okay Nikia you definitely win. As you say GOTO could not be used with a return command as Gosub could. Therefore the problem was that the command could send you to a section of the program that was already a loop. It was therefore possible to get into a continuous loop from which there was no return.

On the Dragon 32 even pressing the escape command would have no effect in these circumstances and the only answer was to switch the machine off from the mains. The Goto command was very much frowned on as programming became more developed, so I do not expect that it is used at all today.

I haven't done much programming myself in recent years so I would not be aware of modern developments. But I enjoyed learning to program in BASIC and have thought about having another go since I retired. Problem is I would not know where to start and what language to start with.

Very much enjoyed this thread Nikia and I am sure along with everybody else that has joined in. It's nice to see members joking amongst themselves rather than flaming each other over trivialities.

Bill

 

[j_maybury]

Well said Bill.

Do you remember those mags you could buy with endless reems of DOS programing you had to copy, and at the end of all that it refused to work because one line of code was missing, and you would have to wait for next months copy to get the missing line, or made a mistake somewere in the text, then when you finaly got it to work, ...it was a load of rubbish!..... Oh happy days.