mSATA vs regular SATA?

rrfoose

Trainzer/Aviator
When looking for a new laptop for T:ANE, and more specifically at SSDs, I see an option for mSATA SSDs more often than a second hard drive with regular SATA for an SSD. What is the difference with the mSATA vs regular SATA? Usually the mSATA is providing greater GBs of storage, but paired up in 2x or 4x 128 GB format. I also see that when customizing laptops, most suppliers state that if you select an SSD, they will put the OS on that drive. I find that to be quite inconvenient, as I want the SSD drive for T:ANE! The 1 TB hard drive that I'll never fill up should be used to hold that crappy Windows 8.1 software I'm forced to use. Has anyone purchased a laptop with multiple hard drives and gotten their OS on the HDD instead of the SSD? Thanks for the insight!
Chase
 
mSata SSD is a small form factor SSD used where space is limited, such as laptops, can also be found on Desktop motherboards for adding an mSata drive for boot caching.
Depends on what the manufacturer has used as to whether a laptop needs mSata or Sata, they are not interchangeable.
 
Here's what they look like:

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00K64I0CU...e=df0&creative=395097&creativeASIN=B00K64I0CU

They're basically SATA drives without the enclosure and plug into a socket directly on the motherboard instead of into a regular SATA interface. The socket looks similar to a DIMM socket, but of course it's shorter.

In many tablet devices, and laptops, these are actually soldered to the motherboards making a replacement nearly impossible due to the size of the etches on the connector and pads on the motherboard.

John
 
Multiple mSATA Harddrives

I'll start off by stating that I'm looking at MSI GS70 laptops over on xoticpc.com. Now, when I go to customize a laptop, this model offers 3 mSATA slots and one full-sized hard drive slot. On the xoticpc website, it says that the OS (Windows 8.1) is pre-installed on the mSATA slot one, on a 128GB SSD. I was considering adding additional an additional 512GB SSD in the mSATA slot 2 on which to install TANE.

My question is, I thought that having multiple mSATA slots filled with multiple sticks of memory were constituted together as one whole disk, am I correct? Or is each of the mSATA slots it's own hard drive? In this case, with 3 mSATA slots and one HDD installed, I have up to 4 drives available. Would this be seen as C:, D:, E:, and F: drives on the laptop?

**I may have stumbled upon my own answer, but I'd like some clarification/confirmation from someone more knowledgeable if able**
On the webpage under mSATA SSD Configuration Option, there are 3 choices:
- Non-RAID storage (Slot 1 Preconfigured as an OS Drive)
- RAID-0 storage (Stripe) Combines mSATAs for performance. Preconfigured as an OS Drive (Requires identical mSATA SSDs)
- RAID-1 storage (Mirror) Copies data from Slot 1 to Slot 2. Preconfigured as an OS Drive (Requires identical mSATA SSDs)

It appears that by selecting the non-RAID configuration, each mSATA drive should be it's own SSD. Only when selecting the RAID-0 option will it align the mSATA SSDs into one larger disk. At least, that's what I'm thinking this means, right?

If I had the ability to add a whole extra hard drive (3.5" I believe, over mSATA 2.5"? I could be talking rubbish...), I would do that and make that SSD for TANE. It seems ridiculous to pay for them to take out a 1TB HDD that could be used to store everything besides the OS and Trainz, and pay to replace it with an SSD. Not to mention, I'd need more mSATA space then for storing files. The cheapest solution is simply adding more mSATA memory. However, I'd like to keep Windows and TANE on separate drives. If selecting non-RAID storage configuration for the mSATA slots, I could put TANE on it's own SSD that way.

Just in case seeing the laptop in question would help, here's a link the the customizing page for it. System memory options are about 1/3 the way down the page.
http://www.xoticpc.com/msi-gs70-stealth-pro065-p-7586.html?wconfigure=yes

Thanks for the input and help all!
Chase
 
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Yes, normally, each drive attached to a port gets treated as a separate drive. Here's a rundown of some alternatives:

RAID0: Used to boost disk performance. You're right in that it combines drive size, up to a point: 2xsmallest drive. So you can get 256GB out of 2 128GB drives. But, if you went with, say, one 64GB and one 256Gb, you'd only get a 128GB combined drive. RAID0 technically isn't a form of RAID in that there is no redundancy; in theory, the odds of a drive failure are twice as high versus a single drive because you're using two disks, and, if one fails, you lose EVERYTHING.

JBOD (span): Combines 2 or more drives into a single volume. A 128GB SSD and a 256GB SSD, for example, can be combined into a 384GB drive. No performance boost, but if one drive quits, you only lose what's on the failed drive. I didn't scour those laptop docs so I don't know if it supports JBOD or not - that's probably buried somewhere in the user manual or something.

RAID1: Runs two drives in parallel. All data is written to both simultaneously so that, if one fails, the other will still run. Used for redundancy and availability. You can still use a system with a failed drive pretty much like normal. If you replace the failed drive, the system will run more slowly while the new drive is rebuilt, but it'll still function. A bonus of RAID1 is that you can, in theory, get much better read performance, which nearly all of what Trainz and many other apps do while running, although, in practice, most consumer-grade RAID1 setups don't benefit much. One thing to keep in mind with RAID1 though, versus a traditional backup, is that it doesn't protect you from file deletions, malware that corrupts your files, and the like. It's great for people who need the availability or who just can't back up as often as they should, but it's not really a substitute for proper backing up.

By the way, "memory" is not the same thing as "storage": Simply put, memory is the temporary memory used while your computer is running whereas storage is the long-term storage for programs, files, and everything else, whether or not the computer is running. Memory is almost always much more limited than storage and is temporary, but is usually faster.

As for whether it's "ridiculous" to exchange a 1TB hard disk for a smaller SSD, well, to some people, the extra performance is well worth the reduced capacity. I love my SSD. I'm still not completely sold that SSDs are reliable enough to fully replace HDDs at this point, and supporters of each can have a blast debating the merits of each, but there is no need to debate here. If you want a hard disk, get one, and have an SSD or two for the stuff that needs performance.

Here's a possibility based on what works for me: I have one giant Trainz installation with something like 600-700GB of content. I have a smaller, "driving" installation stored on my 128GB SSD which has just a few routes I like to drive. I occasionally copy over routes from my big installation to my driving one and delete any old ones (and dependencies) as necessary, apart from a few favorites which I refuse to delete. It's worked well for the last several years, although between my SSD filling up with FSX stuff and the prices of SSD storage coming down to more sane levels, an upgrade might be in the near future. Keeping this example in mind, it's perfectly reasonable to have an HDD as an OS and, perhaps, as a "master storage", drive and one (or more) SSDs for the stuff that really might benefit from it.

Lastly, to kind of sum things up, it's probably best to go with a non-RAID setup, have a 256GB (or thereabouts) SSD for the boot drive (I'd pick a 256GB Samsung 840 or Intel, depending on your budget) and for running Trainz, and a 1TB hard disk drive for major storage. Unfortunately, it looks like they don't give you the option of making the HDD a boot drive, and this might violate your plan of having Trainz and the OS on two separate drives; if that is really important, perhaps go with a second SSD in slot 2 and see if it can be spanned/JBODed together with your main SSD. Alternatively, maybe go for no JBOD, get a 128GB SSD for the boot drive, and a 256GB (or whatever you can afford) for the slot 2 drive, and a hard disk. It kind of hurts to recommend a 128GB though since they're so close in price to a 256GB drive, though.
 
To add to this... T:ANE will support installing data outside of the Trainz install path, which being a 64-bit application will install in C:\Program Files\N3V\TANE or whatever it'll be called. With your programs and OS on the faster SSD, you'll gain the benefit of faster operation while your data, which can add up pretty fast can be on the bigger hard drive.

John
 
Thanks for your help and descriptions guys - I truly appreciate it!

So according to RRSignal, I can go with 2 mSATA SSDs in the non-RAID configuration - one 128GB SSD for the OS and one for TANE (you mention 256, but I was thinking 512 since my current TS12 folder is 252GB). I'll also have the 1TB HDD for everything else.

However, according to JCitron, I could get away with 2x128GB mSATA SSDs (in non-RAID configuration, of course), with one each for the OS and TANE, as most of the data can be stored on the HDD. A couple questions from this - I assume I could direct the install program to install T:ANE on the D: drive if I wanted it there, correct (if the second mSATA SSD ends up labelled as the D: drive)? Just because it's a 64-bit program doesn't require it be installed on the C: drive, I imagine? If data were on the HDD, which data in particular might this be? Wouldn't Trainz need the entire database to recall assets to load in the game? I would rather pay for a larger hard drive up front and not have to move data back and forth as I want to use it. I suppose I don't understand how splitting the data over two hard drives would be beneficial..?

Again, thanks for your help and patience as I learn more and more about computers!
Chase
 
512GB is fine. I had just thought 256GB instead of 128GB for the first drive since the price difference was something like $30 or $40, IIRC. But, sure, go with a 128GB SSD/512GB SSD/1TB HDD setup.

You shouldn't need to install T:ANE on the C: drive; it should be able to be installed anywhere. I've opted out of the beta test, so I don't know for sure, but there is no technical reason why you'd need to; in fact, under modern versions of Windows, it's actually somewhat simpler to store your programs elsewhere than the "usual" place of your C:\Program Files folder. So, sure, you'd have it on D:, which would probably be the 512GB SSD based on what we've been discussing.

Yes to your next question: AFAIK, you need to have the entire game plus all its data on one disk, be it the HDD, your 512GB SSD, or maybe one copy on each i.e. the copy you use on the SSD and one backup on the hard disk. Based on the new information that you provided about the size of your Trainz installation, you'd at least need a 256GB SSD for Trainz, though the fact that you're willing to shell out for a 512GB one also ensures that you'll be reasonably futureproofed for awhile yet. Maybe John can confirm that or knows something I don't, because I believe he may be participating in the T:ANE beta program; I know some folks have been requesting a way to split the Trainz database among multiple disks, though I suspect that's impractical. Again, going with the assumption that you do have to have all your Trainz content and the game itself on the same drive, you'd obviously want to play it from the SSD, since the whole point of getting an SSD is better performance, so you'll need at least a 256GB and would be better off with the 512GB one. You can still have a backup copy (or a second copy used for route-building, etc.) on your hard disk as a safety net without it taking up too much space.
 
Yeah, I could upgrade the first drive from 128 to 256, but I figured 128 would be enough for the OS and any other programs that I feel need to be on there for better performance. Then I can keep the second SSD just for Trainz! Although I could get a whole install on a 256, I wouldn't have much room to grow, not to mention being that full would certainly slow the drive down. Next option at 512 (really, a Samsung 500GB drive) would, as you mentioned, give me plenty of room and keep me future proofed! And finally I'd have more than enough room for all other files and a backup of TANE on the 1TB HDD.

We'll see what John says about the splitting between disks since he's the one testing. I donated to kickstarter at a level that got me access to the beta, but since neither my computer nor desktop are DX11 capable, that's been a no go. I'm looking for a new gaming laptop, hence all my questions as I try to build a decent rig without going unnecessarily overboard. Good time of the year to find deals too!

While I'm at it, I'll ask you guys here before I start another thread in case I can get this question answered. Anybody familiar with Kepler vs Maxwell architecture? While looking at mobile video cards, specifically NVIDIA's GTX 860M-980M cards, I see that the 860M was made with Maxwell architecture, then the 870M and 880M were produced with Kepler architecture, and now the newest 970M and 980M cards have returned to the Maxwell design. The difference I'm interested in is power consumption and heat output. Although I have heard of both of these gentlemen from math classes past, I do not understand much more about the process of how these cards were designed. Since I am interested in a slimmer laptop, I know that heat will be more of an issue. Is there really that much of a difference in heat output between the two designs? I feel that most people who care about this are playing the top level computer games with the most intense graphics. I get a feeling that Trainz does not fall into that cateogry, at least not in the TS12 state. Even TANE shouldn't be that demanding, otherwise very few will be able to play it. If anyone has input on heating issues, either from experience or word of mouth, I'd be interested in learning more!

And again, thanks a ton for the help!!!
 
That's correct, you can install TANE anywhere just like any "normal" Windows application. There's a parameter line you can put in to specify where you want the content to go.

Now keep in mind, and I hope too that this isn't just for the beta, that this will be the way the program will be once in production! :)

John
 
, I'll give you a little bit of geekdom from the PC side always buy the largest hard drive you can you will never regret it people make the biggest mistake in trying to get the size they think they'll need rather than the largest size they can afford it's been proven again and again I've been in computers for 37 years
 
Yea, I'd go along with that, buying largest you can AFFORD, keeping in mind reasonable price points. I was just in Microcenter today and saw 6Tb Seagates...for $300! hehe. I'd rather have two 4Tbs and maybe some change, or a bunch of 2Tbs. But, yeah, somehow you always end up filling drives, even if it does take awhile.
 
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I've done this for years and it pays off in the long run because storage devices usually outlast the rest of the system components and can be moved from one system to another usually without any issues.

I did find out the hard way that my current motherboard doesn't handle drives larger than 2TB well. They load, the system sees them, then the fall offline. This turns out to be a known issue with my motherboard after a long hunt around the Intel forums. At the present time there is no solution other than to run the drive externally which I do using one of those SATA to USB enclosures.

John
 
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, I'll give you a little bit of geekdom from the PC side always buy the largest hard drive you can you will never regret it people make the biggest mistake in trying to get the size they think they'll need rather than the largest size they can afford it's been proven again and again I've been in computers for 37 years

This is so true but i have recently been looking at the price locally or 4 6 and even 8 TERABYTE hard drives for our new home server which will end up with 24 of them at end of first stage and 48at the end of stage 2 and although 6 terabytes are at an all time low price it still works out more financially advantageous to buy 4 terrabyte ones because you can get 2 X 4 TB hard drives for less than the price of a single 6TB one also check motherboards carefully some have good onboard stuff that can work well till you can later afford to upgrade to add in cards instead sound network and video being the main ones here though if you use on board video remember it uses part of your RAM for VIDEO RAM and allow for that in your workings out for RAM requirements
 
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