Moveable lift bridge

[stagecoach]

Glad the experts are chiming in! ATLAS is too complex for me since I rarely run actual sessions, generally just quick drive with me running everything and no AI. I like the solution you came up with Felix, in the past I've used a invisible switch to control bridges near yards so they arnt activation when im doubling my train but this solution gives actual manual control which I like. The two derail switches could be junction linked and the lowering switch separated so the signal could be manually lined after the bridge is lowered into position. This also sounds like a good way for manual grade crossing control, I have a situation where I have a grade crossing at the end of one of my yard and ATLS gets very confused by changing directions over the crossing, something its not meant for to my understanding. I've seen this is alot on lightly used lines in the real world where the conductor will get out, and flip a switch in a control box to keep the crossing activated, then once finished switch it back to normal mode.

When a train enters the yard use the set priority command to 3 as soon as you can. As the default priority on ATLS triggers is 2 your train wont activate the crossing by going over them. When a train in the yard needs to use the crossing, place an ATLS 2 way driver command set for the channel of the controller that activates the crossing, this is a trigger. The crossing will remain active until you place another driver command the same as before. Before the train needs to leave the yard to continue its journey set the priority back to 2, it will now use the triggers again. In my ATLS Advanced Demo there is a small yard with a crossing which is fully controlled by the ATLS driver commands. A station with a level crossing at the end of it with some through trains and others that terminate is also on the demo.

Manual mode is also possible by placing a driveable car with driver somewhere on your layout. Don't give any commands but use it as a switch controller. You might have 2 level crossings you want to control, channel 1 and 2. When you want to activate 1, enter the ATLS 2 way ATLS command channel 1 into the car and select continue, the crossing will activate and remain so until you repeat the command again. like wise you could activate both crossings by putting in a command for 1 and 2.

 

[bendorsey]

There are 2 types so called lift bridges:

1. Vertical lift bridges in which both ends rise vertically.
2. Various designs in which one end of the bridge pivots or pivots and rolls and the other end rises up.

Type 1 can be made to work as a transfer table (not a turntable).
Type 2 would have be done as a turntable and frankly I don't think that's possible.
There is a long shot of making type 2 work but as neither a transfer table or turntable using a custom script. How you would control it manually is the big question.

Kind mocrossing has (almost) always been used to take advantage of code built into Trainz to operate it without the need of a separate script file. To me the advantage is automatic operation. The only disadvantage is the trigger radius is fixed at 80 meters from the end track attachment points. Note that I said track attachment points (plural). On long bridges a short train will run out of the end track attachment points causing the bridge start to reopen. The solution is additional track attachment points spaced so as to keep a short train always within the trigger radius of at least one. I use 200 ft.

Ben

 

[mre12ax7]

could the Goethals lift bridge be modified to work as a turntable

 

[bendorsey]

No.

However it could be modified to work as a transfer table but if this can all be done using the ATLS system including manual operation why bother?

Ben.

 

[bendorsey]

No.

However it could be made to work as a transfer table but if the ATLS system can already do this including manual operation why bother?

Ben

 

[felix_g]

[...] I've seen this is alot on lightly used lines in the real world where the conductor will get out, and flip a switch in a control box to keep the crossing activated, then once finished switch it back to normal mode. [...]

Yep, I've seen this a couple of times in videos. I guess this is quite common practice on US shortlines in yard/low-speed areas... and for me it's fun to do it the same way in Trainz. Can be easily done by attaching some ATLS/NRC crossings (along with some Traffic stoppers if you have road traffic) to the invisible switch/invisible traincar.

[...] I guess many users would probably rather have them automatic lest there be a flood of complaints from people who dont understand why their train went crashing into the water lol.

Good point. I assume you are talking about a route you intend to release to the public. I think you're right, the majority of users do expect everything being automatic.
But as most likely even the most sophisticated ATLS setup can not cope with all the eventualities of yard operation by automated control alone, you have two choices:

1. Simple manual switch lever operation. Advise the user to throw the switch to activate/deactivate the RR Xing (or lift bridge).
2. ATLS setup. Advise the user how to deal with malfunctions by using ATLS commands... in a way even an ATLS newbie user is able to understand.

I would definitely opt for the first one. Easy to set up, easy to explain to the users of your route. You can not expect people going through an ATLS tutorial to use your route.
This is not meant as an offense against ATLS people... boat and stagecoach, I appreciate the effort you are putting into ATLS, but sometimes a simple solution is the better one.

Felix

 

[mre12ax7]

how could it be modified to a transfer table

 

[boat]

Hi Guys.... Just a few thoughts.....

..... As the default priority on ATLS triggers is 2 your train wont activate the crossing by going over them. .....

Actually Keith, sorry to correct but ATLS Triggers default to ALL priorities active. You just need to untick the Priorities you want it to be invisible to, in the dialogue box.

ATLAS is too complex for me since I rarely run actual sessions, generally just quick drive with me running everything and no AI.

No problem, but just so you know. If you save the ATLS settings to your Route/Map then ATLS will work with manually driven trains in 'QuickDrive' too.

You can not expect people going through an ATLS tutorial to use your route.

Users do not need to understand ATLS. If the route creator has set it all up correctly, it will just work.

All the best,

Boat :wave:

 

[bendorsey]

As far as I know NO Scherzer Lift Bridge can be converted into a transfer table type of bridge PERIOD! In fact I'll go further and say no non-true vertical lift bridge can be converted to a transfer table type of bridge.

Transfer tables move in linear (straight line) motion.

A Scherzer lift bridge moves in rotational motion. That means it would have to be made as a turntable which allows rotational motion BUT ONLY IN THE HORIZONTAL Plane! A Scherzer would have to rotate in a vertical plane and as I said before as far as I know Trainz code does not allow that.

I hate to be the wet blanket on your parade but its either use the ATLS system or find a true vertical lift bridge to convert.

Ben

 

[mre12ax7]

i Would like to convert the Goethals lift bridge

 

[bendorsey]

Which one?

I made 22 versions of it.

Ben

 

[Shortline2]

Hi,

A Trainz KIND Turntable can go anyway you want it, except you can not flip it... It turns sideways to a certain angle, then just flips, so, any hope of a rotating dumper is not possible.

But, one can make it turn, go sideways like a transfer table, go up like a elevator, turn while it go up/down, and I suspect even to a certain unknown angle raise only one end up- Never done that part so can't tell for sure.

I have some inclines set up as KIND turntable, they work just fine, so I would suspect a lift bridge would be possible at some extent, but not knowing half of the names of bridges mention in this thread I can not say no or yes...

Just had to butt in and say that vertical and horizontal motion is possible with a KIND Turntable in Trainz.

Linda

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Linda:

Long time no hear from you.

I've tried for close to 2 years to make a visible traincar rotate in its longitudinal (coupler to coupler) axis with absolutely no luck. I can make a 360- degree loop like in some roller coasters but when the traincar goes past 90 degrees it it flips over so the loco is always right side up. In other words an open rotary car dump is night impossible. However - - - I have seen 2 videos of one that worked. How it worked I don't know. One is payware so its proprietary information and the gent that made it can't tell me. The other gent just grins and keeps mum which is of course his prerogative. I strongly suspect there is a considerable amount of slight-of-hand involved and what you see as a real traincar rotating isn't. Instead its a fake (structural item of some sort_ which can be rotated and the real traincar is hidden somehow. Interesting to note that screenshot of either have never to my knowledge have appeared on forum.

Having never tried to do what this gent wants and having no idea how to go about it would you be willing to see if you can convert whichever one he wants? I'll be glad to send you the original Gmax mesh.

Ben

 

[Shortline2]

Hi Ben,

Long time yes.

I tried years ago to rotate a car just like you, sideway I would say it, but it would be like I stuck a rod into the coupler and out through the other coupler, and spin around that. As you, I found at a certain angle, it would just flip back to a upright position and just grin at me...

I never tried to rotate the other way, as in a way to open a bridge, would imagine it to work, as the problem with the flipping train would not occur as there would be no train on the bridge it self...
If I remember right, the rotating KIND turntable, the track it self did rotate, just the train flipped back in upright position.

I'm not very great at animations, your a much better master there then me, so I would be a little scared at trying my hands on the mesh, so at least before I do that I would try a simple animation to see what would happen.

Just need to dig out my old test file or create a new, earliest I think that can happen would be this weekend, so feel free anyone to test them self.

Setup would be like a KIND Turntable with the special naming on the attachment points as a turntable need.

Ben, I suspect the rotating unloader is using a trick with a fixed scenery model of the car to be rotated and switches them through script, but I never seen any video I can relate to for Trainz so just pure speculations there.
No, I remember, it is a custom car yes, but the script hides the car and leaves the load mesh, which is the one turning, something like that if I remember right - tricks...

Linda

 

[Shortline2]

Hi again,

I was thinking a little over this while I was unable to fall to sleep, and don't fully understand why it should be a KIND Turntable either, as a KIND Buildable should work just as well.
The trouble here is the scripting part, which I assume is why the KIND mocrossing has been used as it has a inbuilt script as Ben as has mention.

As no trains at all is suppose to climb up the bridge when it is raised, it don't matter if a Trainz train will do it or just flip over or what, the visual part is the bridge deck, and that is just a regular animation controlled by something in a script, user made, or a built in like in the mocrossing or in a turntable with the arrows or a control script.

Above there is mention on how to control the train and boat traffic using a script someone has made, I assume that works out of triggers either set up inside Surveyor or in a mesh, but that last one - inside a mesh - I doubt is used.
If that system is used, then the bridge could be as far as I understand it, just a regular scenery model set up with attachment points for the track parts and animated to do the motion needed and set up in the config as a KIND Buildable as it has attached tracks to it.

No need to build in the boat pattern, and using triggers set up in Surveyor and a session built up, using the setup mention on the first page of how to control the traffic, it should be possible to make a far more flexible movable bridge scene in Trainz I think.

But, I have no experience in the control the traffic part mention above, so can't tell for sure. All this is thoughts based on the pieces of info I read and put together as a thought only..

So, based on all this, I don't think I will bother to see if I can flip a train car the way a bridge would open on one end as in reality, there is no need for that in Trainz.

Best wishes all

Linda

 

[vulcan]

Hello guys and Linda,

Not to hijack this thread, but a little information might help. I used the mocrossing for lift bridges and bascule bridges as that is all that was available in early Trainz versions. Even so I got the comment at the time from those who remain nameless, "oh, a kind mocrossing was not designed to do that". Yes a transfer table will do what you want, I use it for my canal lock models. However, it is manually or driver command operated, whereas the mocrossing is automatic. I believe the trigger radius for a mocrossing is something like 200 to 300 metres, forget the exact value. For fast trains it is too close to the lift bridge, and the value is hard wired in the code.

ATLS can be used to signal and control operations for a lift bridge, even if you want it controlled from a ship track. Stagecoach has done some good work with those options.

You are correct, while you can roatate attached track with a rotating drum, the train on the track will remain vertical. For my rotating hopper model (not released) the rotating drum is easy to do as a turntable or transfer table model. The trick is the special rotating cars: For all my aircraft, I use an invisible box as the default mesh. The aircraft, wheels etc are all separate meshes attached to this invisible base mesh. If I animate the base mesh, I get the aircraft to follow the animation. This allows me to flare or spin the aircraft, and lift helicopters up or down, or sideways, relative to the track.

Briefly, you need to make special rotating hopper cars based on the above - the hopper mesh is attached to the invisible animated base mesh. If the center of the rotating drum and the center of the couplings is the same location, during unloading I rotate the invisible mesh around the coupling height, the ore car will follow. Note the bogeys are attached to the visible hopper car and follow the hopper rotation. Since you are using an animated invisible base mesh, you can attach someone else's hopper car to that base mesh in the config, just call up the kuid as an attached mesh (heights may be an issue). The car however has to be simple, no special running numbers or special animations as these would be looking for references in the default mesh which is no longer the original car, but the invisible default mesh.

You can load the hoppers normally, but when unloading, the special rotating animation will occur, so the hoppers are not suitable for unloading at normal drop off points, only the rotating drum unloader. Even so, I had not been able to get the bogeys to exactly follow the rotating animation, ans the wheels tend to move relative to the rotating track in the ore drum. This slight misalignment can be hidden by simulated track clamps the "lock the wheels to the track".

The main issue I have is that the rotating drum has to be one car length, and it is impossible to get a train to stop accurately under AI, Auran have admitted that. The mass of the train, the speed, and the number of locos all effect the consistency, as do the trigger radii. You can put in speed signs to slow the train down, but for a different train the sequence gets out of sync, and a car will hang out the end of a drum sometimes. For these reasons the model is not reliable within the limitations of Trainz AI and I have not released it yet.

Here is the link to the video:

[video=youtube;kFdJBA0UDxw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kFdJBA0UDxw[/video]

Ben and I did discuss how it worked and the limitations in this thread, post20, and why it was not available. I have not had time to return to the frustrating issues:

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/show...thing-is-Awesome!!!-Is-it-available-in-Trainz

Ian

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Linda:

Yes - the bridge wouldn't rotate much past 70 or 80 degrees so flip over wouldn't be a problem and even if it did rotate farther (none ever went past 85 degrees) there would as you said be no traincar on the bridge.

I think those two gents swap the real traincar (which can't be rotated) out with a fake traincar (which can). There is scripting code that allows you to move a real traincar to a different track but it has limitations (there must be a car on the track its going to for it to couple to). That's not a problem hiding the car but its a major problem when bringing it back. No rotary car dump would only dump one of two full cars on it at a time. Its both or none. As for the fake - it can be hidden until needed underground like a hopper load. Another disadvantage is it traincar specific. Our rotary car dumps work with any traincar set up for the proper product. An open one done with a fake traincar could only be done with a fake that looks like the specific real traincar. Big fat limitation in my mind.

Let me finish what I'm making (a vertical diesel lift) and I'll see what I can manage with Scherzer 107 as a turntable in the vertical mode. Never tried it (never even thought of it) but who knows - might even work, lol.

Hope Tore is doing well.

Ben

Hi Vulcan:

Was hoping you would check in. That's the video you showed me at least 2 years ago. Thanks for all the info (now if only I understood it, lol).

From a practical point of view (or mine at least) my guess would be open rotary car dumps are so limited as to be pretty much impractical (which is very sad as something like yours could be the highlight of a route).

Ben

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Linda:

I was going to take this to an e-mail so as not to clutter up this thread but for some reason I can't get my contacts list to show up (not the first time).

A transfer table requires an anim.kin file so you can control the axis of movement. X, Y, Z and even combinations since the config file entry is in keyframes between positions.

A turntable does not need an anim.kin file so how can you change the axis of rotation? Something you add to the config file?

Ben

 

[Shortline2]

Thanks Ian, and Ben,

Did not fully follow all Ian said, but it seems a clever way to work around some of the limitations in Trainz, just to hit some other ones. :| Either way, well done Ian what you have managed!

Ben, have fun with the bridge thingy.

Linda

 

[bendorsey]

Hi Linda:

Yes but how, lol?

How do you make a turntable rotate in something other then the normal X - Y plane?

EDIT: Hold on Linda - I might and figured it out. Was looking through the 2004 CCG and noticed the animated turntable info. If it can be animated - I can control the plane of animation and am not limited to the X - Y plane.

Experiment time, lol.

Ben