Maybe its time now for addressing Linux64bit

[RoysTrainz]

Auran is moving to the next level with 2010.
Windows vista is updated to windows7
Computers getting more and more ready for the daunting tasks.

Who's interested in a constructive,positive and open minded thread on this very inyteresting topic Linux.

Until now trainz was not mature enough to look for reliable alternatives to windows and as Windwalkr correctly stated today 32bit machines get killed with the virtual mem issue in windows and that solving is easier said than done. Finding Osama Bin Laden could be faster....ist it?


My point and sincere believe is that now its time with 2010 to give linux a chance and move on.
The biggest thread now is that Auran will try to make 2010 work for the older and smaller computers and make probably compromises and restrictions that all owners of better and up to date machines will suffer from getting a crippled version. Better make 2 versions at the moent the unrestricted for all 64bits and if possible the very restricted for 32bits.

We as 64bits users should now focus on linux and see and compare with existing linux users like Geofwillams and others to see what their experience is 32b and or 64b.

Looking forward to hear any good suggestion or help to make this one work.

happy trainzing to all of you
Auran please do NOT cripple 2010 for the 32bits older ones as it will be already tough enough to get it running well on 64bit.

no more 2 ct

Roy

 

[mjolnir]

Roy,

I'm a big fan of open source, and except for the fact that two software packages critical to my life require Windows, (although one could use MAC), I'd be on a Linux box in no more time than it would take me to download and install a distribution. However, I suspect that at this point the game engine is highly dependant upon Windows, and will be that way for some time, so I don't expect a Linux version of Trainz any time soon.

What would be a step in that direction, though, would be a move in the direction of more support for Blender.

ns

 

[pommie]

1.3/UTC/04/06 can all be made to operate under Linux/Wine, CMP has limited functionality but will install content and commit, however 09 is very flaky to say the least and CM2 is so wrapped up in .NET that it will not start even with .NET installed in Wine, so it looks like Auran are making it harder to run trainz via Linux/Wine (this would be unintentional on their part).

I have posted this before, and will probably post it again,"We need Auran to develop JET64 in multi platform code", then even the poor Mac guys would be happy :hehe:

Trainz 09 is the only reason I have windoze on my machine, I'll wait until after Trs10 is settled and see what Aurans intentions are, if its not multi platform I will ditch winblows and either go back to 06 or give it away completely

Cheers David

 

[knight42]

I have posted this before, and will probably post it again,"We need Auran to develop JET64 in multi platform code", then even the poor Mac guys would be happy :hehe:

As happy as this "poor Mac guy" would be with a Mac version of Trainz, this would be a massive undertaking for Auran, and it's probably not worth the effort: a) smaller potential market, and b) consumer Macs don't have the graphics hardware to drive such an application. I'd need a £1200 top-range iMac, whereas I'm about to upgrade my PC for about £150. Macs aren't designed for gaming.

In fact I wonder what the potential Linux market is compared to Windows, too - worth doubling the size/expense of the development team for?

I only use Windows for Trainz, a few other games and for studying Windows programming for my work; I'd drop it in a heartbeat if Trainz were available for another platform. I just don't see it happening.

 

[pommie]

I fully realize that developing a Linux version 64bit trainz would be an expensive affair, thats why I said multi platform, develop the code so it can be compiled for Winblows or Linux (I'll bow to your knowledge about the Mac ) that way they only have to recoup the extra expense of developing for multi platform against Winblows only.
A 64bit Jet will have to be developed soontm because it will not be long before most people are running 64bit OS's, and while 32bit app's will run on 64bit they would run better as native 64bit.

I'll just get on with my modeling and wait, now where did I put that razor saw

Cheers David

 

[amigacooke]

worth doubling the size/expense of the development team for?

Would it require doubling the size/expense?

 

[Lagermeister]

However, I suspect that at this point the game engine is highly dependant upon Windows, and will be that way for some time, so I don't expect a Linux version of Trainz any time soon.

Even when Trainz is depend on .Net a conversion into Mono could be a way.

would be a move in the direction of more support for Blender

It seems that Trainz supports only 3ds but Blender has an internal exporter to 3ds (at least i have seen it but i am learning still Blender).

 

[knight42]

Would it require doubling the size/expense?

Potentially, although doubling is a maximum obviously - if no-one at Auran has Linux development experience then they have to be trained, or someone employed who does. Then you have the extra coffee and cakes budget...

 

[sparky15]

The forum here is a small representation of Trainz users. With any game/program you have to take into account a number variables. I know a lot of people that tried Vista and had fits, dumping it and going back to XP. Now that Windows 7 is out they are very leary of upgrading to that.

Other than hard core gamers, only using them for the purpose of this discussion, a lot of people are content with XP and what they have computer wise. Those are the folks, like me, who only upgrade their computers when it becomes impossible to run most of what is out there. As long as I can run what I need I'll stay with what I have. If I need to upgrade my machine or OS just for Trainz, I won't be buying Trainz, when my previous version works great.

At this stage forcing someone to upgrade hardware for a game would probably hurt sales.

Dave....

 

[mawilson]

As a software developer, I'm a huge fan of platform independence. I've been writing and using cross platform graphics code for more than 15 years. It certainly can be done. Take a look at OSG based "flightgear". xplane is developed on a Mac but runs just fine on both Linux and Windows.

The trick is to use only APIs that are cross platform. That means no .net, no DirectX, no CLR and no direct O/S service calls except POSIX calls that are known to be truly compliant.

What that means for Trainz is most likely a total re-write from the ground up. Only companies that make a fundamental commitment to cross platform will even consider that amount of effort. Of course it's much cheaper when you make that committment prior to making implementation decisions the first time. Is Auran going to be interested in taking on that expense? Given that the total penetration of Mac and Linux on the desktop is only 15-20%, I kinda don't think so.

That said, the right time for them to think about such a move is when they consider incorporating 64-bit and multicore/multiprocessor support into Trainz. Those capabilities, which are necessary to truly exploit modern CPUs found on virtually every serious desktop on the market today. They may want to consider supporting a broader selection of graphics formats and move past the idea of a prefered or single modeling tool while they're at it.

I'd be really happy to see such things but, I'm not going to hold my breath nor am I going to toss one of my favorite pastimes over it.

 

[clam1952]

1.3/UTC/04/06 can all be made to operate under Linux/Wine, CMP has limited functionality but will install content and commit, however 09 is very flaky to say the least and CM2 is so wrapped up in .NET that it will not start even with .NET installed in Wine, so it looks like Auran are making it harder to run trainz via Linux/Wine (this would be unintentional on their part).

I have posted this before, and will probably post it again,"We need Auran to develop JET64 in multi platform code", then even the poor Mac guys would be happy :hehe:

Trainz 09 is the only reason I have windoze on my machine, I'll wait until after Trs10 is settled and see what Aurans intentions are, if its not multi platform I will ditch winblows and either go back to 06 or give it away completely

Cheers David

I have actually got 2009 CM2 to start in 32 bit PCLinuxOS + Wine 1.1.32 without any messing with Wine or registry settings, it connects to DLS OK but locks up if you try to do anything with it and strangely I haven't installed .net, I do have, love it or hate it mono installed, though not sure if it co-operates with Wine but it may do?
I haven't really done any trouble shooting or investigation on it yet, probably have a proper look over Christmas and when or if 2010 drops through the letter box.
Driver and surveyor seem to run ok by the way, just a slight distortion on fonts. Probably break the next time I upgrade Wine though.

What I cant get it to do is run 2009 in Mandriva 64 bit properly, it will run minus any fonts despite using the registry tweaks and installing .net, CM2 doesn't even attempt to start, having said that it may be due to me running Mandriva Cooker, not the release versions or the fact that Wine is still 32 bit and runs in 64 bit in a 32 bit compatibility mode which I suspect is not really that compatible.

I have tried it on a few other varieties of Linux none of which was very successful.

OK so I'm thinking here that running Trainz in 32 bit maybe distro specific and is going to vary on different distributions, as in how developers compile the graphics drivers and Wine for their particular baby.

I also use Linux for most of my Computing and just use Windoze for Trainz and a few 3D apps and a couple of games that I haven't managed to get running in Wine.......... yet

As I understand it, changing any program for 64 bit would require a major rewrite which Auran are more likely to do for 64 bit windows, realistically we would probably have to wait for the 64bit Wine port to come of age to get a 64 bit Trainz working in Linux?

 

[Paulsw2]

Sorry, but I have to ask reading this thread, "why?"

Can Windows really be so bad that it's worth going to all this effort/trouble to try and use an alternative O/S for which Trainz is not designed, not is ever likely to be in the future?

No doubt next we'll be hearing from the Betamax community that it's still not too late to defeat VHS....

Paul (in a Bill Gates kind of mood)

 

[knight42]

Can Windows really be so bad that it's worth going to all this effort/trouble to try and use an alternative O/S for which Trainz is not designed, not is ever likely to be in the future?

I dumped Windows because I find using it an excruciatingly, infuriatingly bad experience, every time. I simply don't like it. While I can't speak for Auran or anyone else, for me it's very much worth the effort. I now use Windows as little as I can possibly get away with without changing careers or dropping things like Trainz. I'd buy a Linux version in an instant, as long as it worked.

 

[geoffwilliams]

Operating Systems

First, let me say that I cannot understand Auran recommending a 64bit operating system at the present time. Trainz is a 32 bit program, the majority of software out there at the present time is 32 bit, and until there is significantly more 64 bit software there is little to be gained. Even the extra 4GB of memory, assuming installed, is unlikely to be of any benefit.

There is little doubt that TS2009 in Native mode runs little better than TRS2004 out of the box. There is more eyecandy, but although it is supposed to take advantage of two or more processors, it runs no better on the same machine. 8GB of memory and a 64bit operating system will make no difference to this.

I can't really understand them recommending Vista either, it is the pain in the butt Microsoft will be pleased when it's long forgotten about. I downgraded from Vista to XP on both desktop and laptop and the performance increased overnight. both for Trainz and my second love Flight Simulator. TS2009 would not run on the laptop under Vista, it now runs quite happily under XP. I don't know about Windows 7, I am evaluating a copy in a Virtual Machine. It is supposed to be smoother and faster, but all I see at present is Vista made such that you don't need to be a Systems Administrator to boot it up.

I can only assume Auran have some vested interest in Microsoft.

As is probably known, I like Linux and given the correct conditions Trainz will run well on it. But if you are buying a computer to run Linux you need to be careful. There is very little support for the newer ATI graphics cards. I have one for which there is no Linux driver, hence 3D accelaration cannot be activated and Trainz cannot be run. NVidia cards, IMHO, are far superior and I have had very little trouble from them save for the fact that I had to dig around a little to get the best driver for running Trainz.

I would love to see a Linux version of Trainz, either native or tweaked to run properly under the WINE package. But, much as I like Linux, (especially because it is free :hehe: )the best software out there (including Trainz) is Windows software. Until this changes I will happily play with Linux, and until someone convinces me Window7 is better than XP, I'll stay with XP. I'll also upgrade to 64bit when the need arises, but it will not be to run TS2010.
Geoff

 

[amigacooke]

What that means for Trainz is most likely a total re-write from the ground up.

There was a Mac beta version of TRS06 that existed, presumably without a total re-write.

 

[amigacooke]

Sorry, but I have to ask reading this thread, "why?"

Perhaps for the same sort of reasons that Sony decided it might be worth taking on Nintendo and Sega.

 

[johnwhelan]

First, let me say that I cannot understand Auran recommending a 64bit operating system at the present time. Trainz is a 32 bit program, the majority of software out there at the present time is 32 bit, and until there is significantly more 64 bit software there is little to be gained. Even the extra 4GB of memory, assuming installed, is unlikely to be of any benefit.

There is little doubt that TS2009 in Native mode runs little better than TRS2004 out of the box. There is more eyecandy, but although it is supposed to take advantage of two or more processors, it runs no better on the same machine. 8GB of memory and a 64bit operating system will make no difference to this.

I can't really understand them recommending Vista either, it is the pain in the butt Microsoft will be pleased when it's long forgotten about. I downgraded from Vista to XP on both desktop and laptop and the performance increased overnight. both for Trainz and my second love Flight Simulator. TS2009 would not run on the laptop under Vista, it now runs quite happily under XP. I don't know about Windows 7, I am evaluating a copy in a Virtual Machine. It is supposed to be smoother and faster, but all I see at present is Vista made such that you don't need to be a Systems Administrator to boot it up.

I can only assume Auran have some vested interest in Microsoft.

As is probably known, I like Linux and given the correct conditions Trainz will run well on it. But if you are buying a computer to run Linux you need to be careful. There is very little support for the newer ATI graphics cards. I have one for which there is no Linux driver, hence 3D accelaration cannot be activated and Trainz cannot be run. NVidia cards, IMHO, are far superior and I have had very little trouble from them save for the fact that I had to dig around a little to get the best driver for running Trainz.

I would love to see a Linux version of Trainz, either native or tweaked to run properly under the WINE package. But, much as I like Linux, (especially because it is free :hehe: )the best software out there (including Trainz) is Windows software. Until this changes I will happily play with Linux, and until someone convinces me Window7 is better than XP, I'll stay with XP. I'll also upgrade to 64bit when the need arises, but it will not be to run TS2010.
Geoff

There is a compiler setting that would allow Trainz to run in 2 gigs on a 32 bit system or 4 gigs on a 64 bit system using the same code. Using a 64 bit operating system leaves this option open. From memory there are some memory and technical issues which mean the 64 bit operating system has some slight advantage when running 32 bit programs.

Vista and Win 7 are required to support DirectX 11 many games will probably be moving to DirectX 11 so Vista / Win 7 again leaves this option open.

In the Windows environment companies can create drivers but you can't see the code. There is commercial value in this it gives them a competitive advantage. The number of machines running Windows is very high and there are some nice standard configurations from companies like Dell.

The Unix world is too fragmented and both nVidia and ATI don't like their driver code being open source. So if you want to make money you sell Trainz in the biggest market with the best software drivers which happens to be Windows at the moment.

Unless Auran goes under and the code is purchased and made open source in the same way that Blender went open source I don't think it will be going UNIX or LINUX.

Cheerio John

 

[pommie]

Fair enough John, but if the customers, while admittedly a minority, do not let the software companies know what they want (well would like) how do they find out?

I would hazard a guess that Auran will be watching the switch to 64bit very closely as they need to know when to start developing the JET 64bit, remembering that it will take a fair length of time to develop the code and have to consider the risk that another company will start developing a 64bit rail sim before them.
I am not a programmer so I have no idea how much extra work is involved in developing multi platform over just Windows, and even then which Windows, XP-64, Vista-64 or Win7-64.

Cheers David

 

[Johnk]

At $40 (approx), Trainz is a very cheap program or game if you like, compared to PlayStation games and other PC titles. Like it or lump it, the software is designed for a mass market and if the project is to survive it must be able to run on the most common Windows version, with minimum 3d graphics card requirements. Assuming Auran manages to keep 50% of the selling price, they still have to sell over 2,500 games a year just to keep a single programmer in his or her job. And that doesn't even pay the rent, cost of plant and equipment, advertising and the manager's salary. Taking everyone and everything into consideration, the number of unit sales required to stay afloat would be staggering.

How many of those desperately needed customers would run a 64 bit version of Windows I dare ask? One percent? Two percent? Maybe ten percent if you're lucky. Take the other ninety percent from the equation and I'm afraid Auran and Trainz would both be doomed.

I for one, will never upgrade my computer or OS to play a game. If Auran can't make their software work on my computer, then they won't get my business. That's not cruel, it's a fact of life, and I'm not alone.

Auran may have to take stock next year when Google finally releases its long awaited Linux based Chrome OS. Although designed for Netbooks, it's open source and wide open for improvement. It's predicted that within months, it will probably be on millions of PC's and run most Windows software. Good luck Google, boo hoo Microsoft. My heart bleeds.

I read a review on Amazon recently and Trainz was mentioned. The reviewer commented that the latest version of Trainz (2009) was based on a 3D graphics engine created almost 10 years ago. 64 Bit was unheard of in those days, so rewriting the entire program including the engine, may be a bit too much to expect at this stage. Let's be thankful for small mercies and remember that the highways have a 100kph (60mph) speed limit even though every modern car can travel twice as fast.

 

[johnwhelan]

At $40 (approx), Trainz is a very cheap program or game if you like, compared to PlayStation games and other PC titles. Like it or lump it, the software is designed for a mass market and if the project is to survive it must be able to run on the most common Windows version, with minimum 3d graphics card requirements. Assuming Auran manages to keep 50% of the selling price, they still have to sell over 2,500 games a year just to keep a single programmer in his or her job. And that doesn't even pay the rent, cost of plant and equipment, advertising and the manager's salary. Taking everyone and everything into consideration, the number of unit sales required to stay afloat would be staggering.

How many of those desperately needed customers would run a 64 bit version of Windows I dare ask? One percent? Two percent? Maybe ten percent if you're lucky. Take the other ninety percent from the equation and I'm afraid Auran and Trainz would both be doomed.

I for one, will never upgrade my computer or OS to play a game. If Auran can't make their software work on my computer, then they won't get my business. That's not cruel, it's a fact of life, and I'm not alone.

Auran may have to take stock next year when Google finally releases its long awaited Linux based Chrome OS. Although designed for Netbooks, it's open source and wide open for improvement. It's predicted that within months, it will probably be on millions of PC's and run most Windows software. Good luck Google, boo hoo Microsoft. My heart bleeds.

I read a review on Amazon recently and Trainz was mentioned. The reviewer commented that the latest version of Trainz (2009) was based on a 3D graphics engine created almost 10 years ago. 64 Bit was unheard of in those days, so rewriting the entire program including the engine, may be a bit too much to expect at this stage. Let's be thankful for small mercies and remember that the highways have a 100kph (60mph) speed limit even though every modern car can travel twice as fast.

Just a comment on new machines Windows 64 bit is now the most commonly installed operating system and has been for about a year.

Cheerio John