Maybe its time now for addressing Linux64bit

[Johnk]

Here's part of the Google Analytics report for the Trainz Resources Directory for the past 30 days.

People running Vista Ultimate may or may not have installed 64 bit. It seems that others would have to contact Microsoft to get a copy. I doubt that many people would have done that.

Sometimes we seem to think that the people on these forums are the majority. Nothing could be further from the truth. I stick by my comment that Trainz is a program aimed at the cheap end mass market and most users will have basic operating systems and machine setups. That doesn't mean it's a cheap program as in rubbish. It's one of those bargains that can produce amazing results in the right hands and with the right equipment. To many, it's just a game like any other game, but they are still the buying public and Auran needs them.

 

[geoffwilliams]

I think that says it all John. Most serious simmers are using XP and 32bit XP, and reading the Flight Simulator Forums most wouldn't touch Vista with a barge pole.

You are quite right, most of the stuff out there at the present time, hardware and software is 32bit, and I can't help but feel that Auran are shooting themselves in the foot by recommending 64bit and Vista? Never ever!

There is a rumour that when MS decide to develop the Flight Simulator again (if they aren't already doing it on the quiet) it will target play consoles like it's x-Box. Unfortuanately, this is the way that games are heading now, and before too soon the 32bit 64bit argument may not matter one jot.
Geoff

 

[clam1952]

I think that says it all John. Most serious simmers are using XP and 32bit XP, and reading the Flight Simulator Forums most wouldn't touch Vista with a barge pole.

You are quite right, most of the stuff out there at the present time, hardware and software is 32bit, and I can't help but feel that Auran are shooting themselves in the foot by recommending 64bit and Vista? Never ever!

There is a rumour that when MS decide to develop the Flight Simulator again (if they aren't already doing it on the quiet) it will target play consoles like it's x-Box. Unfortuanately, this is the way that games are heading now, and before too soon the 32bit 64bit argument may not matter one jot.
Geoff

Think people need to look at Windwalkrs comments on this subject in a couple of other threads where he is stating that 2009 and 2010 are large address aware.

From here http://www.wintellect.com/CS/blogs/...bit-native-c-exes-with-largeaddressaware.aspx, I read that as they can use the 4GB address space and bypass the 2GB 32 bit limit.

Re Consoles v PC's, there will always be a hard core of people who to get the most out of their games like to create there own add ons levels etc, which they are not likely to be able to do on a console, the main reason why I never bought one.

OK most simmers use XP, not hard to understand why when you look at the mess that is Vista, that went horribly wrong somewhere through the Longhorn testing, at the point when all the "MS knows best" garbage was added.
However 64 bit Win7 and 32 bit for that matter seems to be a whole different scenario and may well knock XP off the number one spot. As a predominately Linux user of many years I actually think Win7 isn't a bad OS for something coming out of Redmond.:hehe:

Having said that I take Auran recommending 64 bit more as meaning it will work better on 64 bit systems not that it will perform badly on 32 bit or you actually have to have 64 bit just yet... The minimum specs are still quite reasonable for those who haven't got need or want the latest hardware or OS.

 

[mikemike]

Umm, Auran wrote this little game, way back when, where you could play 'train layout' and run a train around a loop. I bought it, of course, because i'm a fiend for trains, and was pretty disappointed that you couldn't do more than run around a loop. Some really super-smart and creative people started adding things to it, and they were fans and outside Auran's control, though Auran did work with the independent developers, evidently -- they allowed them to add their work to Trainz and, maybe, passed on information about the app. I think Auran was taken by surprise.

I don't think that Trainz was ever meant to be a serious train-sim, and it's become something like one because of the independent developers adding realistic content and options for running something like realistic operations.

Marketing of Trainz has always been a problem for me: I always fell for the line, always hoped that the next version would incorporate all the independent's work and work better. It did incorporate, getting free-ware to add to its core, and, really, it always seemed to focus on these glamor routes, and how that was the desirability of the product. And, at one point, it did overhaul the app so that more actions could be accessed. But, I think we're missing the point: it wasn't supposed to be an operations sim at all, it's supposed to be sit in the cab and drive through some ( ugly ) tree replicas and ( silly ) cute-cars on the streets pretend -- which is, to my mind, as interesting in life as the mini-cam in a Lionel three-track F7.

I think the smartest thing for the market and for us train-freaks would have been for Auran to develop the economic game, the Manager Game, where you had to account for the actual running and actions of your railroad. Railroad Tycoon never went beyond "add more stations" and the void is real: there's no railroad sim on the market which isn't a choo-choo driver fun-time. We can make our own "Time-Saver", yes, but we can't do anything beyond just 'put it here and take it there', and that's meaningless unless there's a reason for having the railroad at all. Life is 'economics', in the world we like to model, and my thought is that, working on that level of granularity, where each move has to be justified, would bring the level of detail to that level also, and make some sense out of 'multiple industry and schedule' -- beyond, just, 'do the run for fun'... since, in all cases, it seems like designing a new route is more fun for me than running the Trainz.

I do know that that's not what most people want from this product, and I apologize for sounding arrogant about this. It's just a thought I have on what I'd personally like a train-sim to be like.

Auran is moving to the next level with 2010.
Windows vista is updated to windows7
Computers getting more and more ready for the daunting tasks.

Who's interested in a constructive,positive and open minded thread on this very inyteresting topic Linux.

Until now trainz was not mature enough to look for reliable alternatives to windows and as Windwalkr correctly stated today 32bit machines get killed with the virtual mem issue in windows and that solving is easier said than done. Finding Osama Bin Laden could be faster....ist it?


My point and sincere believe is that now its time with 2010 to give linux a chance and move on.
The biggest thread now is that Auran will try to make 2010 work for the older and smaller computers and make probably compromises and restrictions that all owners of better and up to date machines will suffer from getting a crippled version. Better make 2 versions at the moent the unrestricted for all 64bits and if possible the very restricted for 32bits.

We as 64bits users should now focus on linux and see and compare with existing linux users like Geofwillams and others to see what their experience is 32b and or 64b.

Looking forward to hear any good suggestion or help to make this one work.

happy trainzing to all of you
Auran please do NOT cripple 2010 for the 32bits older ones as it will be already tough enough to get it running well on 64bit.

no more 2 ct

Roy

 

[mikemike]

Umm, Auran wrote this little game, way back when, where you could play 'train layout' and run a train around a loop. I bought it, of course, because i'm a fiend for trains, and was pretty disappointed that you couldn't do more than run around a loop. Some really super-smart and creative people started adding things to it, and they were fans and outside Auran's control, though Auran did work with the independent developers, evidently -- they allowed them to add their work to Trainz and, maybe, passed on information about the app. I think Auran was taken by surprise.

I don't think that Trainz was ever meant to be a serious train-sim, and it's become something like one because of the independent developers adding realistic content and options for running something like realistic operations.

Marketing of Trainz has always been a problem for me: I always fell for the line, always hoped that the next version would incorporate all the independent's work and work better. It did incorporate, getting free-ware to add to its core, and, really, it always seemed to focus on these glamor routes, and how that was the desirability of the product. And, at one point, it did overhaul the app so that more actions could be accessed. But, I think we're missing the point: it wasn't supposed to be an operations sim at all, it's supposed to be sit in the cab and drive through some ( ugly ) tree replicas and ( silly ) cute-cars on the streets pretend -- which is, to my mind, as interesting in life as the mini-cam in a Lionel three-track F7.

I think the smartest thing for the market and for us train-freaks would have been for Auran to develop the economic game, the Manager Game, where you had to account for the actual running and actions of your railroad. Railroad Tycoon never went beyond "add more stations" and the void is real: there's no railroad sim on the market which isn't a choo-choo driver fun-time. We can make our own "Time-Saver", yes, but we can't do anything beyond just 'put it here and take it there', and that's meaningless unless there's a reason for having the railroad at all. Life is 'economics', in the world we like to model, and my thought is that, working on that level of granularity, where each move has to be justified, would bring the level of detail to that level also, and make some sense out of 'multiple industry and schedule' -- beyond, just, 'do the run for fun'... since, in all cases, it seems like designing a new route is more fun for me than running the Trainz.

I do know that that's not what most people want from this product, and I apologize for sounding arrogant about this. It's just a thought I have on what I'd personally like a train-sim to be like.

Auran is moving to the next level with 2010.
Windows vista is updated to windows7
Computers getting more and more ready for the daunting tasks.

Who's interested in a constructive,positive and open minded thread on this very inyteresting topic Linux.

Until now trainz was not mature enough to look for reliable alternatives to windows and as Windwalkr correctly stated today 32bit machines get killed with the virtual mem issue in windows and that solving is easier said than done. Finding Osama Bin Laden could be faster....ist it?


My point and sincere believe is that now its time with 2010 to give linux a chance and move on.
The biggest thread now is that Auran will try to make 2010 work for the older and smaller computers and make probably compromises and restrictions that all owners of better and up to date machines will suffer from getting a crippled version. Better make 2 versions at the moent the unrestricted for all 64bits and if possible the very restricted for 32bits.

We as 64bits users should now focus on linux and see and compare with existing linux users like Geofwillams and others to see what their experience is 32b and or 64b.

Looking forward to hear any good suggestion or help to make this one work.

happy trainzing to all of you
Auran please do NOT cripple 2010 for the 32bits older ones as it will be already tough enough to get it running well on 64bit.

no more 2 ct

Roy

 

[mikemike]

Umm, Auran wrote this little game, way back when, where you could play 'train layout' and run a train around a loop. I bought it, of course, because i'm a fiend for trains, and was pretty disappointed that you couldn't do more than run around a loop. Some really super-smart and creative people started adding things to it, and they were fans and outside Auran's control, though Auran did work with the independent developers, evidently -- they allowed them to add their work to Trainz and, maybe, passed on information about the app. I think Auran was taken by surprise.

I don't think that Trainz was ever meant to be a serious train-sim, and it's become something like one because of the independent developers adding realistic content and options for running something like realistic operations.

Marketing of Trainz has always been a problem for me: I always fell for the line, always hoped that the next version would incorporate all the independent's work and work better. It did incorporate, getting free-ware to add to its core, and, really, it always seemed to focus on these glamor routes, and how that was the desirability of the product. And, at one point, it did overhaul the app so that more actions could be accessed. But, I think we're missing the point: it wasn't supposed to be an operations sim at all, it's supposed to be sit in the cab and drive through some ( ugly ) tree replicas and ( silly ) cute-cars on the streets pretend -- which is, to my mind, as interesting in life as the mini-cam in a Lionel three-track F7.

I think the smartest thing for the market and for us train-freaks would have been for Auran to develop the economic game, the Manager Game, where you had to account for the actual running and actions of your railroad. Railroad Tycoon never went beyond "add more stations" and the void is real: there's no railroad sim on the market which isn't a choo-choo driver fun-time. We can make our own "Time-Saver", yes, but we can't do anything beyond just 'put it here and take it there', and that's meaningless unless there's a reason for having the railroad at all. Life is 'economics', in the world we like to model, and my thought is that, working on that level of granularity, where each move has to be justified, would bring the level of detail to that level also, and make some sense out of 'multiple industry and schedule' -- beyond, just, 'do the run for fun'... since, in all cases, it seems like designing a new route is more fun for me than running the Trainz.

I do know that that's not what most people want from this product, and I apologize for sounding arrogant about this. It's just a thought I have on what I'd personally like a train-sim to be like.

Auran is moving to the next level with 2010.
Windows vista is updated to windows7
Computers getting more and more ready for the daunting tasks.

Who's interested in a constructive,positive and open minded thread on this very inyteresting topic Linux.

Until now trainz was not mature enough to look for reliable alternatives to windows and as Windwalkr correctly stated today 32bit machines get killed with the virtual mem issue in windows and that solving is easier said than done. Finding Osama Bin Laden could be faster....ist it?


My point and sincere believe is that now its time with 2010 to give linux a chance and move on.
The biggest thread now is that Auran will try to make 2010 work for the older and smaller computers and make probably compromises and restrictions that all owners of better and up to date machines will suffer from getting a crippled version. Better make 2 versions at the moent the unrestricted for all 64bits and if possible the very restricted for 32bits.

We as 64bits users should now focus on linux and see and compare with existing linux users like Geofwillams and others to see what their experience is 32b and or 64b.

Looking forward to hear any good suggestion or help to make this one work.

happy trainzing to all of you
Auran please do NOT cripple 2010 for the 32bits older ones as it will be already tough enough to get it running well on 64bit.

no more 2 ct

Roy

 

[johnwhelan]

Think people need to look at Windwalkrs comments on this subject in a couple of other threads where he is stating that 2009 and 2010 are large address aware.

From here http://www.wintellect.com/CS/blogs/...bit-native-c-exes-with-largeaddressaware.aspx, I read that as they can use the 4GB address space and bypass the 2GB 32 bit limit.

Re Consoles v PC's, there will always be a hard core of people who to get the most out of their games like to create there own add ons levels etc, which they are not likely to be able to do on a console, the main reason why I never bought one.

OK most simmers use XP, not hard to understand why when you look at the mess that is Vista, that went horribly wrong somewhere through the Longhorn testing, at the point when all the "MS knows best" garbage was added.
However 64 bit Win7 and 32 bit for that matter seems to be a whole different scenario and may well knock XP off the number one spot. As a predominately Linux user of many years I actually think Win7 isn't a bad OS for something coming out of Redmond.:hehe:

Having said that I take Auran recommending 64 bit more as meaning it will work better on 64 bit systems not that it will perform badly on 32 bit or you actually have to have 64 bit just yet... The minimum specs are still quite reasonable for those who haven't got need or want the latest hardware or OS.

Now that is interesting and something I missed. So finally after we've been asking for it for a couple of years they have decided to go the 32 bit 4 gig program space way.

Thank Heavens.

Cheerio John

 

[mikemike]

oof, sorry for the triple-post

Mod, sorry for the multiples -- it got locked in place and I clicked send too many times!!

 

[RRSignal]

We'll see. Vista has left a bad taste in people's mouths. Furthermore, a lot of people aren't too happy about the fact that Microsoft released a new OS less then two years after the launch of the last one. While it was necessary and a big improvement over Vista, people are not too thrilled about the concept of having to buy a new computer and OS every few years.

 

[mikemike]

well, i'm happy to buy a new system every few years because i like this kind of game and, to play it, it's always needed a better card and CPU. when i got the very first trainz, i think i was on one of the first pentiums and using some kind of ATI or Nvidia -- whatever i was using for my graphics design studio, and i need to up-grade constantly anyway for my work.

as i tried to suggest in my longer post, it's what we want to use the game for. if it's virtual reality and train-driving -- the most authentic looking scenery -- then, your video card and cpu isn't optimized yet, no matter what, because these kinds of games eat up processing like pancakes eat syrup. you can run a choo-choo around a circle and have a house and a tree and a consist of a pullman and a box car and a frame rate of 25fps -- that would be one trainz experience, yes -- back in 1997 with train dispatcher -- supply your own images of house and tree. : )

We'll see. Vista has left a bad taste in people's mouths. Furthermore, a lot of people aren't too happy about the fact that Microsoft released a new OS less then two years after the launch of the last one. While it was necessary and a big improvement over Vista, people are not too thrilled about the concept of having to buy a new computer and OS every few years.

 

[meatloaf747]

Having said that I take Auran recommending 64 bit more as meaning it will work better on 64 bit systems not that it will perform badly on 32 bit or you actually have to have 64 bit just yet... The minimum specs are still quite reasonable for those who haven't got need or want the latest hardware or OS.

clam1952,
I think your above paragraph summons it up for me. Auran aren't forcing anyone to move to a 64bit OS. All they are trying to say is because they can take advantage of LAA in a 64bit environment, TRS2009 & TS2010 will run abit better on 64bit OS's. (that's XP 64bit, Vista 64bit & Window 7 64bit)...

If people want to stay with their 32bit OS's, not a problem. If people are running or want to switch to a 64bit OS, then they are less likely to incur a memory problem when running a big session on a very large, long, detailed route after several hours of running.

If you luv XP like I do, consider going to XP 64bit. Just tried out Windows 7 64bit. Now that rocks... (very impressed)...
Cheers, Mac...

mikemike; Nothing stopping you from going in an deleting/editing two of your triple posts. Thanks, mate...

 

[RoysTrainz]

hahaha the crappy (local fish in TN) bite well on anything these days

clam1952,
I think your above paragraph summons it up for me. Auran aren't forcing anyone to move to a 64bit OS. All they are trying to say is because they can take advantage of LAA in a 64bit environment, TRS2009 & TS2010 will run abit better on 64bit OS's. (that's XP 64bit, Vista 64bit & Window 7 64bit)...

If people want to stay with their 32bit OS's, not a problem. If people are running or want to switch to a 64bit OS, then they are less likely to incur a memory problem when running a big session on a very large, long, detailed route after several hours of running.

If you luv XP like I do, consider going to XP 64bit. Just tried out Windows 7 64bit. Now that rocks... (very impressed)...
Cheers, Mac...

mikemike; Nothing stopping you from going in an deleting/editing two of your triple posts. Thanks, mate...

Morning Mac,

long time no see good to hear your 64b w7 seems to work very well. Is that to say with trainz or in general?
I am still waiting for my w7 to arrive by horse from europe. Its saver these days than using the internet. Things get lost easily.
Mac tell me more bout windows 7 rocks!~!!!:mop::mop:

Roy

 

[Johnk]

This is a bit off topic, but it's in responce to part of MikeMike's post.

I have the first Trainz CD Case in front of me. It was a single CD entitled Trainz... Model Railroading on your PC. The word Model was dropped soon after when Auran realised that most people were using the program as a real Rail Simulator. I think Trainz was the brainchild of Bob Shaw, who dreamed about a virtual model railroading program, rather than having to build the real thing in his loungeroom. As mikemike mentioned, most of the routes were loops (but quite long ones), however there were a couple of out and back routes chucked in.

I remember one where you could get off the loop and arrive/or leave fro a multi platform station in a city. Just outside the station were the usual crossovers and signals. In a forum post at the time, someone mentioned that there was a double slip switch buried away in the layout, but the best I could find was what looked like a double slip if it was made up with standard crossovers.

Not having much experience with Surveyor at the time, I set about designing a proper double slip switch. Being delighted with the result, I created what may have been one of the first third party tutorials for Trainz.

Here's a link.

The folks at Auran were a lot closer to their client base in those days, and it was lovely to receive a email from them thanking me for my contribution. The email went on to say that they didn't realise themselves that such a detailed piece of track could be created with Surveyor. I think that was just one of the thousand surprises they've had over the years.

Auran commented in the past, that if the construction of assets were left up to them, the program would indeed be an expensive one. Their way of keeping the price down was to encourage Trainz users to create the assets, while Auran's programmers worked on the core. It may have kept the price down for a while, but now that Auran charges to access the download server which contains stuff donated to them, the price is now up with the most expensive games out there. (You can't call a restricted megabyte limit at dialup speeds access to the server, especially when most downloads exceed the daily limit.)

 

[mikemike]

thanks, johnk

thanks, john. what didn't really come out in my comment was that i was asking myself and others what kind of game i wanted, and how much computer it would take to run that game?

i'm looking at my trainz box, and it's the u.s., strategy first, product, and all it says is 'virtual railroading' -- like, maybe they were afraid 'model railroad' is kid's stuff, or something... i'm also seeing that it's recommending a pentium 2, 733Mhz or an amd athlon -- also, you had to have at least 256MB ram to make this beast work like it's supposed to work. also, an nvidia geforce 2, with 32 MB... and, this was in 2002, and that seems like the hardware dark ages to me...!

but, those were the heroic days, yes, of sweating out how to get something to be something else -- and, the first modders -- genius people, to me, and so friendly and enthusiastic.

 

[Paulsw2]

I'm in the process of deciding what new PC to buy and hopefully one that's future proofed for several years to come. Obviously, I want it to run Trainz well so I've been leaning towards the gaming end of the market and I've been struck by how just about everybody seems to be offering Win 7 64 bit as the standard O/S which comes with their machines.

I agree with John Whelan that Win 7 could be the tipping point where 64 bit really takes off and becomes the new standard.

I certainly won't be buying Win 7 in 32 bit.

Paul

 

[chefbyte]

Thought I might throw this into the conversation

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=3372&tag=nl.e101

 

[ssteere]

Linux - neh???

Linux is exclnt but - its like promising a 10 year old loads of chocolates and sweeties for their birthday but turniong around and handing them a pot and a packet of sugar, some cocoa and a chinese recipe book.

their is still too little support, ease of use for the main stream market place

 

[pommie]

Thought I might throw this into the conversation

http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/hiner/?p=3372&tag=nl.e101

I doubt very much it is as low as 1% as it is recognized to be about the same as Apple os, together they hold about 15 to 20% of the market.
Also if Linux is no threat to Windows, why is MicroSoft throwing money at Linux??
To make Linux easier to run in a virtual environment inside of Windows, in other words MS do see Linux as a threat and want to control it, as they cannot buy it or beat it with lawsuits as is their usual tactics.

Have a read here,
http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/os...soft-vs-Linux-If-You-Cant-Beat-Em-Join-Em.htm

Just as an aside, 90% of servers run a linux OS :hehe:

Cheers David who is typing in a Linux OS at the moment

 

[amigacooke]

It's all about the applications for most people I would guess. Do the vast majority really care what OS they are running as long as they can do the things they want to?

 

[ssteere]

I think we all miss the point - its not so much linux or apple or windows its about Open source software - that is the threat that microsoft is fearful off - i think. Linux is just a good standard to display when talking open sourceany way - Linuinux trains - yep that could work- i mean the content is already half way there with all the contributions.