Layer Oddities

[packetloss]

Hi guys - hopefully a quick question, that someone can help me with.

In surveyor, I have a session layer and a route layer - both have the 'open eye' indicating unhidden. However, i have one train that has 'disappeared'.

When i quickdrive the session, the train runs the route, but all that is visible is the smoke from the engine.

Thinking i would delete the driver and the consist then recreate them to fix the problem, the driver deleted fine. However, the train isnt visible.

When i try and place a locomotive where the old consist was, i am given the warning that i cannot place the item due to something on a hidden layer blocking it.

Anyone know where this missing, hidden layer might be? Or perhaps have a way i can find and remove the blocking consist?

Thanks very much.

 

[JCitron]

See if your loco isn't missing dependencies.

Try connecting another traincar to the train, and then deleting the consist. This will remove the blank loco from your route.

I've never run into this problem per se as you have, but I hope this helps.

John

 

[pware]

When i try and place a locomotive where the old consist was, i am given the warning that i cannot place the item due to something on a hidden layer blocking it.

I often get messages stating that I cannot place an object on a layer that is hidden (or locked) and have to go into the layers control to "unhide"/unlock the layer. I too have had a train in a session visible only by its smoke and again it was because the layer containing the train was hidden when the session was saved. I know you stated that both layers where visible (eye open) but double check.

Earlier versions (pre-layer versions) of Trainz had a problem that if you deleted a section of track from a route that contained a consist in one of the sessions of that route then the train would still be there as a ghost train visible only by its smoke - this could also be the problem.

 

[LarryFord]

I am having the same problem and my entire route is messed up because of it. The problem is that the content is on a Hidden Layer. That is a layer that we can not see. If you can not see the layer you can not control if the layer is on or off. I am not liking the new layer feature at all.

 

[pware]

The layer feature takes some getting used to - when layers first appeared in graphics/paint programs I could not see the point of them but now I could not possibly work without them in both graphics programs and Trainz.

Trainz does need to make some improvements to the way they have implemented layers in future releases and many worthwhile suggestions have been made in these forums so I believe that layers are here to stay.

 

[LarryFord]

The layer feature takes some getting used to - when layers first appeared in graphics/paint programs I could not see the point of them but now I could not possibly work without them in both graphics programs and Trainz.

Trainz does need to make some improvements to the way they have implemented layers in future releases and many worthwhile suggestions have been made in these forums so I believe that layers are here to stay.

That is a bit of an understatement. I have been using Layers in graphic programs such as paintshop for many years and I am very happy with them. I also have used AutoCAD and many other CAD programs for the past 20 years which also use layers much more intensively than any graphics program without problems. But unlike this program those do not hide the layers from the user. They allow you to manipulate the layers to your wants and needs. They do not allow you to place things on a layer and the hide they layer from you so you cannot access they layer. I am not talking about turning things off that are on a layer. I am talking about hiding the layer itself. What brillient mind came up with that! The implementation of layering within Trainz has to be one of the least thought-out implementations in programing history… well with the exception of the DLS these same guys are running.

 

[pware]

Larry, it appears that you may have a faulty installation because I have not experienced any of those problems in Trainz 2009 or 2010.

"They do not allow you to place things on a layer" ... in my experience this mostly applies to layers that are locked and is entirely sensible. The only other cause is trying to place track assets (e.g. signals, trackmarks) that belong to one layer onto track that belongs to another layer - again this is sensible.

"... hide the layer from you so you cannot access the layer ..." "I am talking about hiding the layer itself" ... to quote a well known [local] politician "please explain".

I have no trouble accessing hidden layers via the layer tool and hiding layers is a very useful feature during route development. Hiding/unhiding and locking/unlocking layers are via the layers tool as are renaming, deleting, adding and merging layers.

"least thought-out implementations in programming history" ... is clearly over the top in my view. Perhaps if you clearly explained your problems.

Peter Ware

 

[LarryFord]

Larry, it appears that you may have a faulty installation because I have not experienced any of those problems in Trainz 2009 or 2010.

"They do not allow you to place things on a layer" ... in my experience this mostly applies to layers that are locked and is entirely sensible. The only other cause is trying to place track assets (e.g. signals, trackmarks) that belong to one layer onto track that belongs to another layer - again this is sensible.

"... hide the layer from you so you cannot access the layer ..." "I am talking about hiding the layer itself" ... to quote a well known [local] politician "please explain".

I have no trouble accessing hidden layers via the layer tool and hiding layers is a very useful feature during route development. Hiding/unhiding and locking/unlocking layers are via the layers tool as are renaming, deleting, adding and merging layers.

"least thought-out implementations in programming history" ... is clearly over the top in my view. Perhaps if you clearly explained your problems.

Peter Ware

Perhaps your right, I was over the top with some of my commits. I guess when you are as frustrated as I am over the layering in Trainz, it happens. Maybe I should just abandon TS 2010 and go back to TS 2009. At least I did not lose my work or destroy the routes I have built.

As I mentioned earlier due to placing pieces of rolling stock on layers which I cannot find a way to control, I had to go back to a version of my route that was almost a year old because I could no longer operate the route due to hidden cars and locomotives all over my route. I just don’t understand what is going on. I am so frustrated with it I really which I could disable the layer feature.

Most of Trainz I understand but this layer thing is just beyond me. For example My route is a Dem based Route and Spans from just north of Denison, Tx across the Red River to the South side of Fort Worth, Tx Following the old Katy Mainline having just over 100 Miles of the Katy Mainline but also connecting to all of the other major Railroads in the area. Today I decided to double track the mainline. I worked on it all day. I just discovered that some of the new track I laid today belongs to the route and some of the track apparently belongs to 5 different sessions, I guess. It seems every time I saved the route I created a new session with the same name. I guess I failed to overwrite the session so it saved 5 new sessions with the same name. Now I have 100 miles of second mainline track on 5 different layers or sessions or whatever it is. The bridges I placed are also missing, I assume they are on yet another layer or something.

I just don’t get what is going on. I never accessed the layer tools. Why on earth would it randomly place things on different layers. I never once saw a prompt of anything of that nature asking what layer a particular item should be placed on. I don’t want different sessions and I certainly do not want different layers. I want everything Track, bridges, buildings, cars, and locomotives all on the same layer or session or route. I don’t want anything separated and want everything available.

I just don’t understand what I am doing that is causing things to be on different layers. Please help.

 

[Approach_Medium]

See if your loco isn't missing dependencies.

Try connecting another traincar to the train, and then deleting the consist. This will remove the blank loco from your route.

I've never run into this problem per se as you have, but I hope this helps.

John

I think that's the cause. I have had this happen after placing a car or loco with missing dependencies. I usually find it in Surveyor before even getting to Driver, but either way, I think your method will fix it.

FW

 

[LarryFord]

I think that's the cause. I have had this happen after placing a car or loco with missing dependencies. I usually find it in Surveyor before even getting to Driver, but either way, I think your method will fix it.

FW

That is correct for objects with missing dependencies but is not correct for objects on a hidden layers.

 

[hert]

I have had that too where a layer has gone "invisible" even tho the eye is there and it is suppose to be visible. The solution I found was create another layer in whats not showing (route or session) then merge the invisible layer unto the new layer. It should show now what was considered "hidden"

hth,
hert:wave:

 

[pware]

Larry,

A question if I may that might help solve the problem you described - when you have selected a route for editing from the list of available routes, do you

• click the Edit Route button on the left of the route list to go straight into the route, or
• click the Sessions button on the bottom right then select a session from that route (there may be only one to select) and then click the Edit Session button on the left of the sessions list?

Peter Ware

 

[LarryFord]

Larry,

A question if I may that might help solve the problem you described - when you have selected a route for editing from the list of available routes, do you

• click the Edit Route button on the left of the route list to go straight into the route, or
• click the Sessions button on the bottom right then select a session from that route (there may be only one to select) and then click the Edit Session button on the left of the sessions list?

Peter Ware

I use the Edit Route button. Currently I have 5 sessions with the same name. I have not taken the time yet to figure out what is different about the 5 sessions. I suspect it is a progression of the second mainline I added. Like I said, I worked on it all day and saved the file 5 different times throughout the day.


At the time I did not realize I was not overwriting the session because it was using the exact same name. With most programs when you click save and the file name is the same it either automatically overwrites the file name or prompts you that the file name is the same do you wish to overwrite the file.

That may be the problem. If it added 5 new sessions, albeit with the exact same name it could be that with each progressive save, the items placed between each save belong to that corresponding session and thus that layer. I will take a close look at each session and see if I can determine if that is what was happening.

In any case what I do not understand is how these items, what ever they may be, are being placed on a session layer instead of the route layer. The Route is the same with each save as it was being overwritten, the session however was not. I started out placing the new items on the routes layer (I think?) but apparently after saving the file I somehow switched from working on the route to woring on the new session I just saved?


I don’t suppose there is a way to merge a session like you can merge a route? Can I go into each session and move items from the session layer to the route layer?

 

[pware]

I use the Edit Route button.

Then that is probably the cause of your problem. From Trainz 2004 onwards confusion over the difference between editing a route and editing a session has caused users to lose information in their layouts - specifically industry settings (loads, passengers, products, etc) and consists. With Trainz 2009 and 2010 you can add layer data to this list.

Immediately after creating a new route, I always create a session then from that point onwards I edit the session not the route.

I don’t suppose there is a way to merge a session like you can merge a route? Can I go into each session and move items from the session layer to the route layer?

Yes there is, and it takes just a few mouse clicks to merge all the items in one layer (including a session layer) into another layer.

1. Open the Layer tab on the surveyor screen.
2. Select the layer to be merged from those shown in the window
3. Click the Merge button (the third button on the bottom of the window)
4. Select the target layer (the one that is to receive all the objects) from the list in the dialogue box
5. Click the tick

The Layer window also offers other tools such as the ability to lock a layer (the padlock icon) so that the items it contains cannot be deleted or moved or new items added; and the ability to hide a layer (the eye icon) and all its contents.

You can also drag layers between the route and session sections (although I am unsure what advantage this gives), delete layers (the X button), add new layers (the + button) and rename layers (double click on the layer name).

I find the locking, hiding and ability to create and delete layers to be most useful when developing a layout.

Peter Ware

 

[LarryFord]

Ok here is where I am at. I found all of my recent additions including the second mainline, bridges roads ect located at the top of the sessions list as the first of the identically named sessions. I used “save as” to create a second copy and when I did it asked me for the name of the new route and session. I just added a 2 to the end of the name so I should have a backup of the work and I have confirmed the new route and sessions are in the list under routes.

So now it is time for some clean-up. I have a Route named Katy and under it I have 5 sessions named Katy. I also have a new Route named Katy2 and a session under it named Katy2. I would like to go ahead and proceed with a clean copy as well as the backup copy from this point. Should I delete the original Katy Route and all of its sessions make a copy of Katy2 and call it Katy with its original session to move forward with a clean set of files? How do I get the items that are session related (The new content I recently added) out of the session and into the route?

After the file clean-up how should I proceed with additional edits. What is the correct method to edit a route? As simple as it should be, it seems step by step instruction for editing a route and the correct way to save the route are needed. If you know of a place where more information (instructions) for layers can be found that would be great too.

I would also like to know if I used the edit route button, does the new content just go on the route layer? If at some point I save my work does it switch me over to editing the session? Or does that only happen if in the process of saving I create a new session instead of overwriting the existing session. I just need to understand how my work ends up on a session and not the route when I entered the route through edit route and not edit session.
Thank you very much for you time and patients.

 

[JCitron]

Ok here is where I am at. I found all of my recent additions including the second mainline, bridges roads ect located at the top of the sessions list as the first of the identically named sessions. I used “save as” to create a second copy and when I did it asked me for the name of the new route and session. I just added a 2 to the end of the name so I should have a backup of the work and I have confirmed the new route and sessions are in the list under routes.

So now it is time for some clean-up. I have a Route named Katy and under it I have 5 sessions named Katy. I also have a new Route named Katy2 and a session under it named Katy2. I would like to go ahead and proceed with a clean copy as well as the backup copy from this point. Should I delete the original Katy Route and all of its sessions make a copy of Katy2 and call it Katy with its original session to move forward with a clean set of files? How do I get the items that are session related (The new content I recently added) out of the session and into the route?

After the file clean-up how should I proceed with additional edits. What is the correct method to edit a route? As simple as it should be, it seems step by step instruction for editing a route and the correct way to save the route are needed. If you know of a place where more information (instructions) for layers can be found that would be great too.

I would also like to know if I used the edit route button, does the new content just go on the route layer? If at some point I save my work does it switch me over to editing the session? Or does that only happen if in the process of saving I create a new session instead of overwriting the existing session. I just need to understand how my work ends up on a session and not the route when I entered the route through edit route and not edit session.
Thank you very much for you time and patients.

Okay Larry, sorry if I'm a bit confused here after reading your questions. I feel like I've just read the tax code from the IRS! ???

Simply when you save your route, do a save as and do not create a new session when asked. This will keep the multiple sessions from happening. I also discovered this the hard way. I think it's a bug in the way this works because in the old days, this never happened. A save would overwrite something when it said it would overwrite instead of creating a new copy.

You could try merging all the sessions together into on final session, but do a backup first of everything before attempting this. I wouldn't want to see all your work end up in bit heaven somewhere!

Hope this helps.

John

 

[pware]

Simply when you save your route, do a save as and do not create a new session when asked. This will keep the multiple sessions from happening.

My experiences with using Save are different. If you have entered Surveyor by selecting Edit a session then selecting Save should bring up the following dialogue.

As long as the green option buttons are set as shown i.e.

• overwrite existing route and:
• overwrite existing session

... then your work will be saved using the same route and session names as when you loaded them - they will replace the exiting route/session data without adding new sessions.

This is how I have always done it and have never had any problems. I keep backups by using CM, selecting both the route and the session (both are shown as separate items) and Save both to CDP

Peter Ware

 

[LarryFord]

Thanks for your help guys. I am still extremely confused and I still don’t understand how I end up placing track etc within a session when I started my edits by editing the route. I will experiment and see if I can clear things in my own head as to what is going on.

Maybe it is because I am a Rail designer in the real world and I don’t think of this so much as a game as I do a design tool. It seems like to me that the route should contain the track bridges signals and industries that are associated with the railroad that is being designed. Things like the location of locomotives and freight cars might be the only thing that you might want in the sessions layers, For example I could see where if you wanted to focus on a specific area or specific industries along the route you might want to load up that area with rolling stock and locomotives leaving the rest of the route free of any equipment, but that is about the only thing I can imagine would be on a session layer.

What I am trying to accomplish are the operation across the entire subdivision of the railroad and I simulate operations to all of the industries it serves. This includes 3 major yards and about 25 major industries. I want all of the yards, industries and mainlines on the route layer. All of the yards are full of rolling stock and I believe I have the maximum number of drivers allowed to keep things moving. If at some point I wanted to operate a smaller portion of the railroad I could see where some people might want to scale things back a little and at this point I guess the sessions would come into play. However would you really want to remove a portion of the route by moving track etc to a session layer? I don’t even see the harm in keeping all of the rolling stock in the yards, even if you are not using that portion of the railroad. Perhaps you would want specific types of rolling stock for specific sessions? I think I have enough of everything that you could operate any type of session you wanted with the rolling stock that is located on the railroad now. Peter I guess the point is I am trying to understand why you would build your route on the session layer?

If I could understand that it might it might change my mind about how I personally think of a route vs a session. I have to admit, I have put very little thought into sessions. I have never come up with instruction or anything for a session I just simply try and keep the waybills for each industry filled. Is there something in this regard I am missing?



I think part of my prblem might be like this guy.
http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=68495

 

[pware]

I too have been confused over the session/route issue in Trainz 2010 as it is does not work exactly the same way as it does in Trainz 2006. In 2006 only the industry settings and consists were placed in the Session (there were no layers), everything was in the Route. In Trainz 2010/2010 there are no such restrictions except for landforms and textures which are restricted to the route layer. So it is possible, for example, to have a consist where each wagon is in a different layer (why you would do this I do not know).

As a result I now have a general rule - I open the Layers tab in Surveyor and set the layer that I will be working in before I add/change anything. I have also found it useful to lock all the other layers. One problem Trainz has is that it does not tell you on screen which is the currently active layer and I have, on more than one occasion, planted an entire forest in the wrong layer. I also, as previously noted, only enter Surveyor mode by selecting edit the session, not edit the route.

 

[JCitron]

I too have been confused over the session/route issue in Trainz 2010 as it is does not work exactly the same way as it does in Trainz 2006. In 2006 only the industry settings and consists were placed in the Session (there were no layers), everything was in the Route. In Trainz 2010/2010 there are no such restrictions except for landforms and textures which are restricted to the route layer. So it is possible, for example, to have a consist where each wagon is in a different layer (why you would do this I do not know).

As a result I now have a general rule - I open the Layers tab in Surveyor and set the layer that I will be working in before I add/change anything. I have also found it useful to lock all the other layers. One problem Trainz has is that it does not tell you on screen which is the currently active layer and I have, on more than one occasion, planted an entire forest in the wrong layer. I also, as previously noted, only enter Surveyor mode by selecting edit the session, not edit the route.

This is an excellent way of doing things, Peter.

Regarding the save as... I've had issues with the the save as under 2010 not acting the way a save as should work! For some reason this has always produced a new session with the same name so I've ended up with multiple sessions.

The rotten thing about this problem is this happens usually after I've spent hours setting up an operating session with tons of driver commands, Boat's crossing config setup, etc. I'll push the brain fart button, and end up with two or more extra sessions without realizing it until I'm ready to drive. I then spend time trying to figure out which session is the right one to keep.

The problem then becomes worse. When it comes time to delete the new sessions, and I want to keep the one with the rules, I end up always deleting the wrong one!

The idea of layers and the session layer makes sense, but the implementation is a bit rough behind the ears. I agree being able to place things on both the route and the session during the route design phase is a bit confusing, particularly when you can place different pieces of rolling stock within the same time on two different layers.

Now with TS2009 and prior, I never had issues with the sessions versus the routes, and always placed my rules in the operating session along with the trains so I could drive.

John