Junk Files Uploaded to DLS

[Frank_Dean]

I think the file admission filter for Trainz should be upgraded to a Tane build from 3.9 to 4.5.

This filter would prevent objects or trains with many polygons and no LODs.
Currently, you can upload to DLS with a 3.5 build and thousands of polygons, or even over a million.

As an example of a junk object, there's one that was uploaded to the DLS today, July 3rd, and it's an author who only has that object. Based on the object's username, it must be from China. Some characteristics of this object:

-Chinese username translation: -Chinese-style architecture - Panjin Liaohe Oilfield No. 1 Senior High School
-Size before download according to the Content Organizer: 94.5MB
-Size after download according to the Content Organizer: 227.5MB
-Size in folder format: 208MB
-Build: 3.5
-Type: Fixed-track
-Mesh: Single mesh: bodytrainzmesh of 58.3MB and its body.fbx of 33.7MB, and uses a text file.lm for a single mesh.
-Textures: 9 TGA textures, 7 of which are very large (16MB) and could easily be reduced to a quarter of that, as they don't have much detail.
-Polygon count when opened in the viewer (Preview Asset): 1,378,036 polys
-When you put a 3.5 build and download it in Trainz 2012 it will not be usable because it has a trainzmesh mesh.

For all the reasons above, I'm saying it's a junk file.

 

[pware]

I sympathise but who is going to be the decision maker and what will be their criteria for a "junk file"?

One persons junk is another's treasure.

There are a lot of assets on the DLS that were created in SketchUp that would match or even exceed the figures you quoted above.

I have a simple small wooden crate installed as a scenery item from the DLS that is nearly 30MB in size. Another scenery crate of about the same physical size but with additional texturing effects only occupies 200kB. Both made by well known and respected asset creators.

Again, what will be the criteria and who will make the decisions (not, I hope, ChatGPT).

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

I am surprised that the DLS validation does not trap a serious fault such as a trainzmesh file in a build 3.5 asset.

 

[pware]

I have downloaded the asset, checked it and submitted a bug report for the DLS validation process.

 

[H222]

I sympathise but who is going to be the decision maker and what will be their criteria for a "junk file"?

Certainly in this instance, a trainzmesh file in a build number that is unable to use trainzmesh should be a major red flag.

I'd suggest any complex assets (say, 2000+ polys) that don't have any form of LOD should also be on the hitting list. The single triangle cheat is fine for betas and unfinished content, but stuff on the DLS should have some amount of polish. I shudder to think of what some author's are doing to this game's reputation with insane poly counts and no LOD in an already performance intensive game.

 

[JCitron]

Certainly in this instance, a trainzmesh file in a build number that is unable to use trainzmesh should be a major red flag.

I'd suggest any complex assets (say, 2000+ polys) that don't have any form of LOD should also be on the hitting list. The single triangle cheat is fine for betas and unfinished content, but stuff on the DLS should have some amount of polish. I shudder to think of what some author's are doing to this game's reputation with insane poly counts and no LOD in an already performance intensive game.

The other trick employed is to make an asset build 3.5 through 3.7 to avoid the validation required for builds higher than that. This has created situations where someone with TS12 can download something but the asset has missing dependencies because the other components are build 4.8 and above. This is a big issue with locomotives and other rolling stock that require many dependencies to operate.

 

[ajrf]

The problem is that even in 4.5 there are overpoly assets, and they'll have just a warning, not a fault.

 

[pware]

overpoly assets

Define "overpoly". Is there a single definition that would cover all situations?

I have no problems using an asset with a "high poly", or "overpoly", count even without LODs, as long as I use it just once close-up in a scene. A "high poly" tree used multiple times to create a forest stretching into the distance would be an issue.

 

[johnwhelan]

Define "overpoly". Is there a single definition that would cover all situations?

I have no problems using an asset with a "high poly", or "overpoly", count even without LODs, as long as I use it just once close-up in a scene. A "high poly" tree used multiple times to create a forest stretching into the distance would be an issue.

Dunno, the repetition lowers the hit strangely enough.

Cheerio John

 

[Frank_Dean]

The problem is that even in 4.5 there are overpoly assets, and they'll have just a warning, not a fault.

Sorry but what you say is not true:

I just ran the test. An object with a mesh has more than 500 polygons. We installed a 3.5 build, and it appears without errors in all higher versions. It can be used with just a warning that it has more than 500 polygons.
I changed the build to 4.5 or Tane for the same object as before. I installed it in Tane and in 2022, and both show an error message with red letters, and it cannot be used.
Conclusion: If we upgrade the DLS support build to Tane 4.5, objects without LODs will not be uploaded; they will be rejected as incorrect.
Objects with meshes larger than 500 polygons could still be used if they have a 3.5 or lower build, but they would not be uploaded to DLS.
Tane and above can still use multi-polygon objects for now, as long as they have lods, and if they don't have lods they must have a build of 3.5.

 

[wreeder]

I would make it Trainz build 4.2 because that is Trainz Model Railroad 2017 but other than that I agree totally.

However, N3V painted themselves into a corner when they made the mobile app versions build 3.8 and the Apple version uses the DLS for saving user files such as routes and saved games.

 

[JCitron]

TANE outright complains and refuses to load any really high-poly assets unlike TS12 and other old versions.

Like anything, people will find a way to get around a barrier to make something work. In programming this is referred to as a hole. The problem with using holes is there will come a time when that hole is removed with an upgrade, and then their little workaround breaks. We've seen this play out many times over the years with many assets, with scripted ones being affected the most.

 

[JimDep]

TANE outright complains and refuses to load any really high-poly assets unlike TS12 and other old versions.

Like anything, people will find a way to get around a barrier to make something work. In programming this is referred to as a hole. The problem with using holes is there will come a time when that hole is removed with an upgrade, and then their little workaround breaks. We've seen this play out many times over the years with many assets, with scripted ones being affected the most.

I use TANE and make much of my own structures, houses, buildings, etc. I'd put some on the DLS, but I use low build numbers that don't create any problems for me...so far. What is considered to be " really high-poly" ?
Thanks

 

[johnwhelan]

I use TANE and make much of my own structures, houses, buildings, etc. I'd put some on the DLS, but I use low build numbers that don't create any problems for me...so far. What is considered to be " really high-poly" ?
Thanks

As long as they are below 500 polys or the lowest LOD is below 500 polys that's fine. What are you using for content creation?

Thanks John

 

[JimDep]

I'm using GMAX and have been for over a couple decades.....on & off and sticking with TANE for now anyway. Some of the content I've made for TRAINZ over the years have polys over 2000 and I'm redoing them now so that the lowest LOD is well under 500. Other than the largest train yard , I haven't had too much of a problem with frame rates on an 8 year old Windows 10 budget computer. ....except when running at night with the headlamp on......which is annoying.
Thanks

 

[johnwhelan]

I'm using GMAX and have been for over a couple decades.....on & off and sticking with TANE for now anyway. Some of the content I've made for TRAINZ over the years have polys over 2000 and I'm redoing them now so that the lowest LOD is well under 500. Other than the largest train yard , I haven't had too much of a problem with frame rates on an 8 year old Windows 10 budget computer. ....except when running at night with the headlamp on......which is annoying.
Thanks

Probably the biggest problem with GMAX is the number of textures you can end up with. Blender is a bit easier to do the LOD with as well. Having said that I use blender 2.79b because I'm used to it.

Cheerio John

 

[JimDep]

Probably the biggest problem with GMAX is the number of textures you can end up with. Blender is a bit easier to do the LOD with as well. Having said that I use blender 2.79b because I'm used to it.

Cheerio John

When you say number of textures, do you specifically mean the draw call or something else ?

 

[Frank_Dean]

For general information:
Since the release of the latest Trainz 2022 service pack, the maximum number of different textures (tga, png, jpg, etc.) supported without warnings or errors is 8. This means that if you make an object or train with more than 8 textures and install it on a Trainz 2022 build, it will fail, but if it has a lower build and you install it on Trainz 2022, it will only receive a warning.
To prevent future issues, it's best to limit the number of textures per item to 8.

 

[Dinorius_Redundicus]

Probably the biggest problem with GMAX is the number of textures you can end up with.

Cheerio John

That is simply not true.

I suspect you are thinking of SketchUp which seems to create a different texture material for almost every polygon.

 

[pware]

I suspect you are thinking of SketchUp which seems to create a different texture material for almost every polygon.

I believe that it also creates textures for all the surfaces that you will never see which increases the file count and contributes to its well known memory penalty.