Junctions and diamond crosses

[jeroenvandorp]

I know there's been quite some discussion about solutions; I even found a website where they were selling solutions for it (both diamond cross and junction) preventing train-thru driving. I know how to solve the diamond cross with triggers, but it still is a bypass, and not a real solution. I've been looking for third party track which has a solution for the junction problem, although I couldn't find it on DLS. Any pointers?

Still, I wonder why it's not in the basic set of Trainz. I'm not really a train buff, and very impressed with built-in Trainz content. Some is really ingenious.
Yet, one of the most basic things is missing with these crosses and especially junctions. It's like having to rely on third party content to switch a junction.

Being a non-native English speaker, I include these pictures with familiar scenes I quickly set up, so it's clear what I'm talking about.

This is the familiar junction scene, where the two trains will drive through each other:

There's no junction where there should be one (maybe even automatically should be a double junction). This is a very common situation in real life.

This the diamond cross with the same problem:

Am I wrong or is this a very basic and a very ABC for track construction? In my direct vicinity there's a diamond cross, and on about every train track you'll find basic junctions you don't have in Trainz.

Why would Auran leave out such a very basic piece of construction you need all the time, yet include some very sophisticated and impressive materials at the same time - stuff you hardly if ever use?

Any thoughts on that decision, or am I missing some basic knowledge myself?

Thx.

J.

edit: it seems for some weird reason the pictures didn't show up. Maybe now it works. Sorry.

Jeroen

 

[SantaFebuff]

Good day jeroenvandorp,
I'm sorry to inform you that the only real solution to the problem is to use the ASB signal system which is the trigger idea. It seems like a bypass, but it can become more reliable if you know where you will need to set it and properly use the ASB correctors and use the 4-trigger system.

Cheers,
Joshua

 

[jeroenvandorp]

Good day jeroenvandorp,
I'm sorry to inform you that the only real solution to the problem is to use the ASB signal system which is the trigger idea. It seems like a bypass, but it can become more reliable if you know where you will need to set it and properly use the ASB correctors and use the 4-trigger system.

Cheers,
Joshua

Josh,

Thanks for your response. Any suggestion much appreciated.

I've seen Trainz movies on Youtube with plenty of these junctions, so there must be third party content. Maybe it has been built and not made available on DLS, could well be.

My main question remains why Auran leaves out a feature that is so incredibly basic. It's like publishing a chess program without a capture rule, waiting for third party programmers to write bypasses for it.

Why would a software maker decide on that? Maybe I should ask the development team directly.

On boat's site you can see you need to set a whole lot of driver commands to make things work. It doesn't seem like a bypass, it _is_ one.

Thanks again,

Jeroen

 

[jeroenvandorp]

Here's a solution I considered, compressing two junctions almost on top of each other. Still, it doesn't look correct, and it makes producing neat straight tracks very complicated, if not nearly impossible. And still a bypass. It should be one junction with four possible directions.

Jeroen

 

[TRam__]

It's like publishing a chess program without a capture rule, waiting for third party programmers to write bypasses for it.

These bypasses appear since the times when trainz becomes a "game engine develloper company + third party modellers".

Yes, auran made an attempt to create junctions in form of objects (in trainz 2006, seven years ago), but for some reasons they were not accepted by the communiny. So the only solution is to use third party's junctions and triggers.

It should be one junction with four possible directions.

You should use four junctions, not two.

\__/
Х
/ \​

 

[Andyz]

Hi Jeroen,
I have been using exactly the same solution you show in your post. This works quite successfully for me.
The only difference in my method is as follows:

1 The short piece of track with the levers on it should be made with invisible track.

2 All four sections of track leading into the invisible track should be straightened (this is very important).

3 the piece of invisible track should not be straightened, (here is where all the track bending happens).
4 use the "junction link" <kuid:122381:10003> (or similar) to ensure that the levers are always in sync with each other.
5 Always make your train "navigate via a track mark", placed just beyond the crossing, (to prevent any attempt by the train to turn onto the wrong leg of the crossing).

Using the above methods I have been able to press the 2 junction splines together almost to the point of overlapping, and avoid the ugly piece of compressed track in the middle.

cheers,
Andyz

 

[corvanel]

Hallo Jeroen,
Het is echt de moeite waard om Boat's ATLS en ASB systeem te bekijken. Situaties zoals in je eerste screenshot (kan dat in nederlands) worden simpel en elegant opgelost. ATLS vind je op het DLS, voor ASB moet je een gering bedrag betalen via Boat's website (www,boatztrainz.co.uk). In het begin lijkt het erg ingewikkeld maar als je het eenmaal door hebt valt het wel mee.
Cornelis
(cornelis@premian.eu)

 

[boat]

Hi Jeroen,

Trainz AI has never detected the situation were track crosses through track. This is why at both diamond crossovers and Double Track Turnouts you will see trains running each other.

There are various methods to try and get round both situations on the DLS, using junctions and signals which switch to red. These are OK but most do not keep track of other trains around them. So when a junction switches or a signal goes red there is no guarantee the signal will not go to red right in front of an oncoming train, thus causing a SPAD (signal passed at danger). This makes the train throw on its breaks and re-set. Not good!

To resolve the Diamond Crossover situation I developed ASB Crossover. This uses a trigger system to 'clear' trains across the crossover. Instead of turning a signal red, the ASB Controller makes the default situation at the crossover red. Trains effectively have to ask permission to proceed - to ask for the signal to turn green! This means no sudden red signals to cause a SPAD. Triggers can be placed as far out as you like, so if the crossover is clear the signal will go green long before the 'cleared' train arrives.... so there is no need for a train to slow down. Best of both worlds! It works for single track crossovers with two way running... or double, triple, quadruple.... or as many tracks as you like crossovers.
ASB Crossover is free on the DLS.... See http://www.boatztrainz.co.uk/asbc.html for more info and tutorials.

Double Track Turnouts are more complicated. Some people have tried to use ASB Crossover to protect the track 'crossover' and it may on occasions work. The problem is you are battling with two different systems of AI. ASB Crossover will make a decision as to which train to let through first but since ASB Crossover does not switch turnouts, you will be relying on Trainz AI to switch the point (turnout). Fine if they make the same decision, stuck trains if they disagree!

So that is why I developed ASB Turnout. With this system, both the 'crossover' is protected in a similar way to ASB Crossover AND the junction switch is controlled. The signal for diverging trains is 'default red' so no SPADs will occur and if the converging track triggers are placed far enough out, there will be no SPADs there either. The system is very reliable and (as with ASB Crossover) it will work for both AI trains AND manually driven trains. This means you can build up a network of Double Track Turnouts so you can drive your own train alongside AI ones without having to keep switching the points ahead of you.
ASB Turnout is cheap payware as it helps to pay for my website and hobby. Details and tutorials here http://www.boatztrainz.co.uk/turnout.html

Both the situations in the screenshots in the first post can be sorted by these two ASBs. As for why Auran/N3V do not have a system for this, I can only presume is down to the number of hours in the day. ASB Turnout took me 3 solid months of semi retirement to develop!

Cheers,

Boat

 

[Isegrinns]

Here is how I did it.
Looks more complicated than it really is.

Set up to work with 4 triggers, although the line is set up to have only one direction traffic. But who knows, maybe it needs to be able to have bi-directional traffic at some point.
I really like the ASB system.

Justin (norfolksouthern37) also did a nice & convenient system that handles diamond crossings pretty well, it works with designated signals instead of triggers.

 

[Isegrinns]

Haha, boat beat me to it! Should add that there are several diamond triggers interlocked at the 1st and 2nd shot, thats the reason you see more than 4 blue triggers in the first and the 2 right triggers in the 2nd shot belong to the first crossing.

Wee, triggers!

 

[jeroenvandorp]

All,

Thanks for all the responses. I don't want to deprive Boat of his extra income but my primary question - or better, I wondering why - Auran leaves out such a basic piece of track.

TRam, thanks for your remarks. A wonderful story of not accepting a piece of basic track "by the community". Really weird, but such things happen.

About the junction: if the diamond junction works bi-directional, you can choose four directions. Like this:

In Dutch we call it the tongen (tongues) of the junction. I don't know the English word for it.


Andyz, thanks for the suggestion. That's a good idea to work with.


About Boat's add-on, I understand it has only room for 99 junctions (is that right?) which could make you run into trouble with a lot of junctions of this kind. But I've looked at it and it looks good.

Nevertheless, I still think it's better to give up one sophisticated built-in item and change it for a solid basic item like in real life.

Thanks all.

Jeroen

 

[jeroenvandorp]

To the moderator of this forum: this is not a tread about junctions, but a thread about the fact that the Trainz package is incomplete, and misses basic features. I bought the program and wonder why it advertises with the slogan that it is the most sophisticated railroad simulator yet misses basic pieces. It belongs in the general section.

Best,

J.

 

[JCitron]

To the moderator of this forum: this is not a tread about junctions, but a thread about the fact that the Trainz package is incomplete, and misses basic features. I bought the program and wonder why it advertises with the slogan that it is the most sophisticated railroad simulator yet misses basic pieces. It belongs in the general section.

Best,

J.

Jeroen,

Don't worry about it! We won't remove the forum post or edit it to keep it on topic here. You've brought up an important point which we've asked and complained about since the very beginning of time. Why wasn't this added in the first place? Yes, we do agree about what they considered sophisticated, which in some ways yes it is but other no, and this is why users such as Boat create so many awesome add-ons for the simulator.

Your double-slip switch I think could be handled by the crossing controllers. It would be a bit tricky to "wire" up, but I think it should work.

John