I'm Confused - TS2009 to EE2010 Relationship?

[edion2]

Hello,

A few months back I became disgusted during the "TS2009 Beta Testing" enough to just walk away from Trainz for a while.

I have a series of 3 very large routes that are interconnected to each other via "I-portal within same computer" set up. I walked away from Trainz once before when the "Save" function stopped working in TS2006 since my route was too large for the software to handle.

I jumped back in when TS2009 was released. I bought the "boxed" version and I got an "upgrade discount voucher" for EE version to be released in the future. That was nearly 14 months ago. I was thinking TS2009 was going to be IT. Well it had issues . . . and eventually ended up with the "SP2 Beta Testing Program" As the testing program progressed, my route started performing worse and worse. I gave up when the "draw distance quit working properly", not to mention other minor problems with "trees" regarding their visual appeal in "compatibility mode". My routes that I spent hundreds and hundreds of hours building was slowly becoming inoperable. I was hoping to share my routes on the DLS . . . but with so many DLS content requiring "fixes", there is no way that I can spend the time to get permissions. So I stopped writing my user manual for my series of routes. I have over 200 hours invested in just the Route Manual.

CONFUSION :
I just used my discount voucher and ordered 2010EE. The EE was supposed to be an "ADD ON" to 2009 without "Surveyor". I guess things changed.

Does 2010EE include Surveyor ?
Is 2010EE the NEXT Trainz version instead of being an "ADD ON" to 2009?

My RAMBLINGS ; poor me :

The impression I've gathered from reading various posts is that 2010EE is very unforgiving in "compatible mode", to a point I should consider throwing out the time I invested in my routes for the past 3 years. Whats the use in "building your own world" if its going to be nuked to a crisp in the near future due to the "progress technology bomb".

There are some of us who REALLY care about how things look. I don't know about you, but I'm not really interested in operating in "LEGO LAND" !! Native Mode sounds great and it probably looks great on paper on the desk of a software developer, but currently they are asking us "make believe" too much. While I don't expect a scenery "looks" to equal AVATAR the movie, I would like to have something that looks as good as we had it before without a great hit in performance.

With whats available to use in Native Mode, all you can create is "LEGO LAND" . . . a VERY artificial looking scenery. IMO, much of the "progress" in Trainz was done at a very high cost to the "looks" of a scenery. Lets not forget that Trainz is a SIMULATION game. If the SIMULATION results in "LEGO LAND" . . . smebody dropped the ball - BIG TIME !!

I am not looking forward to all the work required to adapt my routes to Native Mode and having to make all the necessary sacrifice to the carefully crafted "look and the feel" of the routes I've created. I can imagine the "Oh Geezus" feeling all the content creators are facing. The sad thing is, most of them won't care enough to do the necessary fixes to their DLS content. This leaves most of that used DLS content out in the cold.

Just imagine that you are a REAL layout builder. You have a huge and beautifully crafted HO scale layout in your basement. After few years of hard work and near completion, a 100 year flood hits and destroys your layout. You start again and when nearly finished a couple of years later, another 100 year flood hits AGAIN. :'(

We are the poor minions that toils away daily to create something unique and beautiful. New Trainz versions are the 100 year flood that threatens to destroy our work.

Sorry to be so negative . . . but . . . I really need some light at the end of the tunnel to go on toiling !!:'confused::'(

I hope some of you feels similar.

When the 2010EE arrives . . . I will have very mixed feeling about opening it. Am I going to discover that I have to trash most of my work? Do I really want to replace most of my DLS assets with ones that don't work in my scenery just to run in Native Mode? Am I forever doomed to roam in the world of "LEGO LAND" ????

sigh - :'(

Ed

 

[fran1]

Mines in the post too and I'm wondering how its going to go. There's a thread about by Ian Woodmore and I'm sure somewhere in it it says in (native mode) if there's no faulty assets it will run ok. Have a look at it.

 

[edion2]

Well, I guess I'll find out the answers soon enough when my copy arrives.

Anyone have any comments about importing routes that used to run in 2009 with the compatibility ON ? Has anyone tried taking a route like this and made it to run in Native mode in 2010 ? How much of a hassle did you encounter ?

Thanks

 

[PawloA]

RUnnning old 2009 routes

I have created an extremely large route in trains 2004 then lost it and had to create it from scratch in 2006 only to loose it the first time I archived it. As a matter of fact the 2006 is in limbo as it won't start and I can't get the route to come up. Then came 2009 and after various starts and new "test" routes I decided to attempt to make a larger route and save it. Now comes 2010EE and I don't see my old 2009 routes that I created with surveyor. I understand that 2010 does not come with that but I do have a full copy of 2009 and 2010EE is supposed to be an add on. Where are all my routes. I tried using the Content manager to find the route and run it with limited success. I get a different route when I chose a route to work with and most of the content dissappears. So here I am. Should I continue to buy newer products if I always have to scrap what I've done in the past. I'd like to create my large route again but don't know if that would be wise at this time. Any suggestions of more help on this would of course be nice.:'(

 

[Driver_Col]

One obvious suggestion is to stay with a version that works for you and avoid getting caught up in the "latest and greatest" mind set. I have spent far too many hours with routes simply adapting them to the "latest" version, and then spent an obscene amount of additional hours trying get the locos fixed up to work in that particular version. It is interesting that most of the locos and rolling stock creations still appear to be coming from TRS2004 users. I am now very happy with TC3 and, while the emphasis is clearly on UK, I have a Canadian route in progress that shows great promise. As for TS2010? I am not even considering it. TS2011 (when it happens) will totally depend on whether the perceived advantages are worth the projected hours to get it running.

As an aside, clearly all work must be backed up "off the system" at regular intervals.............. just in case!

Just some thoughts!

Colin.

 

[Winglessbird]

One obvious suggestion is to stay with a version that works for you and avoid getting caught up in the "latest and greatest" mind set. I have spent far too many hours with routes simply adapting them to the "latest" version, and then spent an obscene amount of additional hours trying get the locos fixed up to work in that particular version. It is interesting that most of the locos and rolling stock creations still appear to be coming from TRS2004 users. I am now very happy with TC3 and, while the emphasis is clearly on UK, I have a Canadian route in progress that shows great promise. As for TS2010? I am not even considering it. TS2011 (when it happens) will totally depend on whether the perceived advantages are worth the projected hours to get it running.

As an aside, clearly all work must be backed up "off the system" at regular intervals.............. just in case!

Just some thoughts!

Colin.

The ongoing saga with Trainz versions.I feel for you all,as I have lost routes etc in the past.The only way I could retain what I had built,was to have ALL my Trainz versions loaded,so now when I get jack of a particular version,I hop into another and pick up what I was doing there.I really like 2010EE,but as you say getting older content into it appears to be a nightmare,unless your very techy,which Im not.I know this insnt an answer,but its my way of having all that I have built on the one HD.
Rusti.

 

[ianwoodmore]

Hi Folks,

As none of you appear to have uploaded to DLS then I can't give you a definitive answer to your missing routes/sessions, but perhaps the following might help. It's a while since I ran TS2009 but I have hundreds of hours on TS2010.

First off. try running Extended Database Repair function. If this has not been completed it is one cause for the missing route/session problem.

There may be some issues with saved sessions. Can't remember but I think the workaround was to leave Surveyor/Driver back to Desktop and then relaunch

Now on the relationship of TS2009 and TS2010. Only Auran can answer the future but the current relationship is like twins that are not quite identical but share a lot of common behaviour.

Yes you can mount TS2010 on TS2009 but I think it would be better standalone.
Yes TS2010 is backwards compatible with TS2009 but it has new features that the current TS2009 build doesn't.
Yes TS2010 also contains Surveyor.

Now on moving legacy routes/sessions/assets to TS2010. First off you need to consider assets globally rather than specific to a particular version. It is possible to get almost all DLS content downloaded or imported into TS2010. I have the complete DLS plus the TS2010 builtins plus the TS2009 addon programs like Murchison2 and Settle and Carlisle and Cabon City plus some external websites assets. (a total of 275GB, with 3,500 routes and 1,500 sessions along with 10,000+ locos and 16,000+ rolling stock not to mention all the other assets). All up 155,515 assets. Obviously I haven't tested or run all and there are some deficiencies in the way some assets look or behave but overall I have a huge choice to pick from.

Content Manager is very powerful and very discriminating. Pity earlier versions weren't as good. The red and yellow icons that seem to infest it are somewhat daunting to behold but consider this. Of the 45,000 that are defective I have already fixed 20,000. Of the remainder I know I can fix 90% with probably a max of 1,000 that may be difficult due to missing meshes or textures or scripts. At the moment 104,000 are error free. Obviously my Trainz instal is an extreme one as I do a lot of testing, so your situation will not be so extreme.

Here is the crux of the matter for the user. Almost every red or yellow rated asset can be placed and used in compatability mode without repair.

In native mode any yellow can be placed and used BUT red cannot.

Unfortunately the validation process is still a work in progress and may produce up to 8% false indications. There are ways to workround this until Auran fixes the functions, but even as it is it is something I would not want to be without. The search filters alone make it worthwhile.

This criteria applies to assets with trainzbuild 1.3 upwards. In fact I have Acela running in compat mode and it is trainzbuild 1.0. Note that the fact an asset has a legacy trainzbuild is no asurety that it was built solely for that trainzbuild. Many authors have TRS2004 items that actually run in all upwards trainzbuilds without the need to repair.

And just to whet your appetite I have an extreme rig with Asus Extreme MOBO, Dual GTX295 GPUS that can operate in Quad SLI or Directx10 with i7CPU and 12GB of triple channel DDR3 memory running on WIN7 64bit Ultimate in XP mode. I use three Samsung 22inch LCD 120Hz displays at max resolution. I get phenomenal FPS on most routes and sessions. I'm talking 70-350FPS depending on if I'm in OGL or Directx.

I have recently successfully run Trainz in 3D steroscopic vison using nvidia 3d vision shutter glasses.

 

[meatloaf747]

The ongoing saga with Trainz versions.I feel for you all,as I have lost routes etc in the past. Rusti.

Ongoing "saga" is one way of putting it Rusti !!! - I prefer to put it as the ongoing "evolution" of Trainz's.

Ed,
Like you, (& others), I was very skeptical about 2010 at first. I was pleasantly surprised how well things ran in 2010. Sure there's the odd niggle in 2010, but compared too any previous full version of Trainz before it, it's a big improvement in my opinion... (and I mean a big improvement). I'm sure SP2 for 2010 will make it even better.
I've safely backed up my routes in 04, & routes that I have created & or added too in 06 as .cdp's (including some very large detailed existing layouts where I have added alot of additional track & detail too/extended, etc, etc) and had no problems importing them into TS2010. (they imported like a dream).

You might be pleasantly surprised how well your 04 - 06 (& 09) routes run in 2010. (I was)... Now all we have to do is find a sensible solution to fixing a lot of the older content that appears faulty in Native Mode 09/010...

I don't profess to have the answers, but one thing that does bother me is if the original creators want to fix their content to 09/010 native mode standards, "great". If they don't, then that's "great" as well, but why would they have a problem with someone else offers to fix it for them & the community.
Personally I don't see a problem as long as the original creator still get full credit for his/her original creation!!!. - CREATED BY JOE BLOB's, and full credit goes to him. Kindly repaired to 09/010 standards by Mary Smith...

OK, there are some that have flat out said 'don't touch my stuff under any circumstances', and we can all respect that. All we have do now is try and get some sort of register of those creators that don't want there contents fixed and put the register on a popular Trainz web site like JohnK's http://trainzresources.com/ for all to see...
Cheers, Mac...

 

[ianwoodmore]

Meatloaf,

I'm working on it. I have a control document I use to keep me sane when doing repairs called TrainAuthor Currently in Excel 2010. It now lists all authors who have assets uploaded to DLS or installed as builtins in TS2010 SP1 as well as those affected by missing assets. As a consequence of some of the initiatives JohnK and I are working on I have, over the last few days, incorporated columns that show whether authors license status will allow the use of their assets and under what conditions. I'm trying to come up with a keyword approach that slashes through all the gobbledigook and gives a clear indication that the item is freeware or not, and whether it can be hosted on other than Auran websites.

 

[Winglessbird]

quote[I prefer to put it as the ongoing evolution of Trainz's. ]unquote

I stand corrected Mac How silly of me:hehe:

Rusti

 

[meatloaf747]

Meatloaf,

I'm working on it. I have a control document I use to keep me sane when doing repairs called TrainAuthor Currently in Excel 2010. It now lists all authors who have assets uploaded to DLS or installed as builtins in TS2010 SP1 as well as those affected by missing assets. As a consequence of some of the initiatives JohnK and I are working on I have, over the last few days, incorporated columns that show whether authors license status will allow the use of their assets and under what conditions. I'm trying to come up with a keyword approach that slashes through all the gobbledigook and gives a clear indication that the item is freeware or not, and whether it can be hosted on other than Auran websites.

Hi Ian,
Please keep up the great work. I'm sure 99.9% of the community really appreciate all your hard work (& John's) in trying to sort this matter out. It's not going to be easy, and I'm sure a lot of the community will put there hands up and offer to help in some way. It's a massive undertaking...

Like you, I see TS2010 as a way forward for the whole of the community. It's not perfect, but it is an improvement over previous versions. (sure there are going to be those that for whatever reason, choose to stay with earlier versions & good luck to them). We are all part of the same community.

I personally think that if there's ever been a version of Trainz that could unite "most" of the Trainz community, TS2010 is it...
Cheers, Mac...

 

[JCitron]

This is quite the undertaking you and John have taken, Ian.

John

 

[edion2]

It seems 2010EE definitely worth a serious try.

The only thing that bothers me is that each one of us must do a large number of assets fixes . . . and no real way to share the fixes with others.

Thousands of hours are spent by all serious Trainzer to keep their own routes running in the latest version, so we have to do the same fixes to the same asset . . . a thousand times by a thousand individuals . . . what a waste of time for everyone.

There has got to be an easier way.

Too bad . . .