Hybrid locomotives.

jadebullet

might be back?
Why does this sound like a useless idea. Aren't Diesel-electric locos already technically hybrids. Plus Locomotives are very environment friendly compared to trucks. (efficiency wise) This sounds like a messed up GE Publicity stunt. Plus the hybrids that ive seen look horrible.
 
Well all you would, in theory, have to do to make a hybrid diesel electric locomotive is a huge bank of batteries. Uh, where the hell would you put them? Are we going to see the return of tenders or something? And after that, where are you getting the extra power to charge the batteries? all the power (as far as I know) goes to the traction motors. Will you increase engine output going downhill? that seems like it would waste more fuel then it saves.

I will not say its a waste of time, but it does seem like a fishy concept, unless they plan to reinvent the diesel electric locomotive.
 
Oh I get it.....

Also, you wanna make it energy efficient. Regenerative braking is a good idea, because then a train/loco is braking, the power is feeded back into the overhead wires or third rail.

Tender? Modern-day locomotives don't need tenders. They are either powered by diesel fuel, electromagnets, or electrical rails or wires.
 
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from what I've read on them, The body where the diesel and the generator used to sit is a big battery tray full of batteries. Then you have regenerative power by the traction motors when going down a grade, only it doesn't go back to the power company, it goes to the batteries. So really it's just a big ol' honda element.

-I should add, it's completely independent of third rails and cantaries. All power is by battery. Also, there is a big solar panel on top to charge the batteries as well
 
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So its not really a hybrid but an electric engine. Just using batteries instead of a catanary or third rail. I think ill stick to my EMDs thanks. (i have had bad experiences with batteries powering things.)
 
possibly a switch between diesel/electric powersource at speed, like the Prius, which is a bit of a farce in itself.
 
There are a few problems with using batteries.

Other than the huge power demands needed flattening the batteries pretty fast, they are very expensive due to the lead in them, which has gotten very expensive nowadays.

Also as in the new hybrid electric cars, batteries need to be replaced after about 5 to 7 years. In a car you are talking about $10,000.

Imagine what the cost would be for the large array of batteries in a locomotive.

Unless there is an unexpected discovery that makes batteries able to hold a large charge without lead in them I cannot see me buying a car like that. There would not be much trade-in as who wants to buy a second hand car that is going to need $10,000 worth of batteries in a year or two.

Dennis
 
Quick primer on Hybrid trainz.

Hybrid trains are the latest fashion among environmentally (and economically) sensitive railroads. Vehicles require very little power to hold a particular speed, but a lot of power to accelerate to that speed.
In addition, the engine is most efficient at one particular speed, but less efficient at a higher or lower speed.
A hybrid increases efficiency by allowing the engine to charge batteries while running at its most efficient speed rather than varying the speed of the engine, so it's only running part of the time while the vehicle is moving, rather than operating all the time. In addition, the batteries act as a power reserve, so the engine can be smaller. For acceleration, the batteries can be drawn down to increase the power beyond the engines output for a period of time.
Hybrids are only popular with companies and individuals concerned about fuel costs rather than image. People who dream of a V-12 Mustang with open pipes so everyone in town can hear how manly they are have very little use for them. Major railroads live or die by fuel costs, especially these days, so they want to know if hybrids will work for them long term.
There are also dual power trains in France and Japan which charge batteries from catenary while running, then run on battery power on sections of track without catenary.

:cool: Professor Claude
 
Hi Claude,

You Keyed:
"Hybrids are only popular with companies and individuals concerned about fuel costs rather than image."
It seems to me that the apeal of hybrids is largely image. Someone who will pay a few thousand more to have a hybrid can be said to be not so interested in cost.
A V12 Mustang? I believe no Mustang lover would aprove of such a travisty. A V12 Corvette perhaps.:udrool:
Since this forum is about railroads however, I want it to be known that I aprove of them.;)
 
Well all you would, in theory, have to do to make a hybrid diesel electric locomotive is a huge bank of batteries. Uh, where the hell would you put them? Are we going to see the return of tenders or something? And after that, where are you getting the extra power to charge the batteries? all the power (as far as I know) goes to the traction motors. Will you increase engine output going downhill? that seems like it would waste more fuel then it saves.

I will not say its a waste of time, but it does seem like a fishy concept, unless they plan to reinvent the diesel electric locomotive.

precisely this HAS been done, not by g.e., unless they bought them out. the product was/is called the green goat. up's been, or was a couple of years ago, playing with, trying out, beta testing, whatever you want to call it, one of the demo's.

it was in our yard here in roseville for a while, with a bunch of tec-reps in white labcoats hovering over it more often the it was seen moving.

i did do a fallow up on that, out of curiousity seeing it setting there, and did find the website of the company making and, at that time, intending to mass produce and market them.

that was three of four years ago, something like that, and i haven't checked back or heard anything newer since.

basically it looked like a streatched sw-1500. with a much smaller then usual diesel generator package, and the rest of that extended hood filled with a huge array of storage batteries.

=^^=
.../\...

hybreds, those as a sop to environmental concerns, are a stop gap compromise between what needs to be done and what people are familiar with/making a buck off of. as long as burning ANYTHING (except hydrogen, which has other problems) is involved, carbon is being dumped into the atmosphere. stored energy with systems of automatically recharging it off a clean energy supplied grid at stopping places, seems to me the more effective and realistic solution for mechanical transportation.

and of course even batteries have problems that can be nit picked. one way arround both chemical problems AND burning anything is to use other means of storing energy. compressed air, escarpments (wind ups, don't laugh, it IS tecnically pheasable) and flywheels are examples of this. there is something called the perry people mover that uses the last of these, and is, about as 'clean' as a form of mechanical transportation can be made to be.

(the battery/catenary idea is a good one too, or even streight catenary, if every kind of way of generating energy that DOESN'T involve burning anything is what is fed into 'the grid' that feeds the catenary system)

reducing energy consumption by reducing form factor of both vehicule and guideway sturcture is one of my main attractions to narrow gauge and very narrow gauge

=^^=
.../\...
 
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I was wondering about fly wheels. I guess the shaft(s) should be vertcal. If horizonal, turns coulf be difficult and then there is the tendency to roll over.:eek:
 
I was wondering about fly wheels. I guess the shaft(s) should be vertcal. If horizonal, turns coulf be difficult and then there is the tendency to roll over.:eek:

yes, the shaft is virtical and short and the fw takes up most of the undercarrage between the bogeys. there's a website that explains the concept with diagrams and pictures, and yes, at least one 'demonstrator' was actually built. don't know if its still in service or anything more recent.

=^^=
.../\...
 
from what I've read on them, The body where the diesel and the generator used to sit is a big battery tray full of batteries. Then you have regenerative power by the traction motors when going down a grade, only it doesn't go back to the power company, it goes to the batteries. So really it's just a big ol' honda element.

-I should add, it's completely independent of third rails and cantaries. All power is by battery. Also, there is a big solar panel on top to charge the batteries as well
If a train uses a 3rd rail or overhead wire, regenerative braking feeds the power back into the wires/rails, not the battery. Look it up.
 
If a train uses a 3rd rail or overhead wire, regenerative braking feeds the power back into the wires/rails, not the battery. Look it up.

i belive he was refering specifically to the green goat, and or its ilk, if it has an ilk, which do NOT "use 3rd rail or overhead wire". (which, granted, would make more sense where such things are available, which is not even close to being everywhere)

=^^=
.../\...
 
Brittsh rail builts and operated a BMU (Battery Multiple Unit) in the 1950's and used it on the Ballater line in the highlands. It use cheap off peak hydro-electricity.
 
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