High Speed Rail In the Midwest
- Thread starter mp202
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Blutorse4792
Now T:ANE I can get into
Wouldn't it be something if there were fast, electric passenger railroads running between U.S. urban centers? Inter-urban railroads, per se. Why haven't we thought of this before?
It'd be a wonderful alternative to the high gas prices and crumbling, expensive highways. Who would choose to drive a cumbersome automobile when you could take one of these inter-urban lines?
It'd be a wonderful alternative to the high gas prices and crumbling, expensive highways. Who would choose to drive a cumbersome automobile when you could take one of these inter-urban lines?
No problem. Looking back, I took a trip in 1969 from Chicago to Woodruff, Wisconsin on the C&NW, great way to travel. In 1978 I was going to Avionics school at NAS Memphis, used to fly home some weekends on Southern Airways which took about 2 hours including the bus to the airport and the cab ride home from Midway (CTA hadn't built that line yet). Decided to take the train one weekend instead, found out just how far it had declined in 9 years. One train per day leaving Memphis at midnight, arriving Chicago at noon the next day, total 26 hours of traveling both ways don't leave much of a weekend liberty. Never did that again, took the plane after that. High speed rail is the only thing that could compete these days, but it's unlikely to be profitable.
Illinois does not have the population density to make high speed rail useful. The airlines have the advantage for travel time in most of the country. There will be no profits, and operating costs will be subsidized by taxes. Any job created will not increase the GDP, as it will be paid for through taxation. No one wants to go to St. Louis anyway.
I understand this is a train forum, but anyone who supports this has been blinded by their love of trains into ignoring the cold, hard economic facts.
I understand this is a train forum, but anyone who supports this has been blinded by their love of trains into ignoring the cold, hard economic facts.
Sorry for that Blake, but these HSR projects are just boondoggles especially at a time when states are going bankrupt, and Illinois is probably second in line for that! The government can create jobs, but jobs do not raise the GDP, jobs are the end result of new investment in the private sector. Think of it this way, you have a fish tank (GDP), and when taxes pay for job creation, it's as if you need to freshen the water and you take a gallon of water from one end and pour it into the other. To really freshen the water (increase the GDP), you need to add a gallon of water from an external source ( a new industry, profits, jobs created). Moving people back and forth faster does not create new money. Some will say the Interstate Highway program accomplished just that, but you have to remember that the highways allowed for expansions in the private sector that were not there previously. Suddenly it was possible (and profitable) to ship products long distances, which opened up new markets. The support of this new shipping (gas stations, truck stops, retailing, tourism) also created new opportunities for business. Having said that, even those results were so minimal that the Secretary of the Treasury for that time period has gone on record to say that the program was a dismal failure! Now we are STILL PAYING for those highways with tolls and taxes, when in Illinois for example the tollways were supposed to pay for themselves in less than ten years after they were constructed. We all know that they will always be toll ways.
Population density is an important consideration for HSR, and when compared to France, Illinois just doesn't have it. HSR has a very small window of competition with the airlines and the length of this proposed line doesn't measure up. Sure, you can say that by taking the train you can be more profitable as an individual by working on your laptop or whatever, but compared to the amount of money being siphoned off of private enterprise (because taxes do just that, the higher they are the less money is available for the private sector) any personal increase in productivity by an individual or group of individuals will never offset the tax penalty.
Not my opinion, just economic fact.
Population density is an important consideration for HSR, and when compared to France, Illinois just doesn't have it. HSR has a very small window of competition with the airlines and the length of this proposed line doesn't measure up. Sure, you can say that by taking the train you can be more profitable as an individual by working on your laptop or whatever, but compared to the amount of money being siphoned off of private enterprise (because taxes do just that, the higher they are the less money is available for the private sector) any personal increase in productivity by an individual or group of individuals will never offset the tax penalty.
Not my opinion, just economic fact.
Infrastructure investment has been proven to be a stimulator of economic development. This is hardly a partisan issue: France, Germany, and China have well built-out HSR networks, and they're currently holding the entire world's economy on their backs.
I don't understand why infrastructure has to be a partisan issue. If the government pays for infrastructure, it goes to private contractors who build it, who spend money on parts and labor, who spend that money on materials and labor, and so forth. The money just doesn't "disappear" into some government money-hole, it goes back to the state economy. Hell, it will even increase the tax-base to pay for future infrastructure projects.
Lots of things are government money-holes. (see: war on drugs, war on terror, war on [scary thing]) Infrastructure isn't one of them.
I don't understand why infrastructure has to be a partisan issue. If the government pays for infrastructure, it goes to private contractors who build it, who spend money on parts and labor, who spend that money on materials and labor, and so forth. The money just doesn't "disappear" into some government money-hole, it goes back to the state economy. Hell, it will even increase the tax-base to pay for future infrastructure projects.
Lots of things are government money-holes. (see: war on drugs, war on terror, war on [scary thing]) Infrastructure isn't one of them.
You're just a rhetoric machine aren't you? The "rich" already pay most of the taxes, and almost half the individuals don't pay any tax at all. A percentage of them get a refund as well.... for doing nothing? HRS....full STOP.
So, if you pay no income tax, but pay sales tax and then receive a "refund" on your non existent income tax you have probably effectively countered the sales tax you've paid over the year and therefore you have paid no taxes.
The numbers on the rich people have already been crunched, and an increase in their tax rates would not begin to solve the problem. If you are proposing taxing their accumulated wealth, then good luck with that. Wealthy people have to ability to move much more so than people with lesser means. Bill Gates has already stated publicly that if a tax on wealth was instituted he would leave the country....and take Microsoft with him. You think unemployment is bad now, wait until the producers and investors flee the country for a lower capital gains tax! They can and they will.
Why are we suddenly enamored with the methods of confiscating earnings and having the state take over industries? How about instead of borrowing money from China we look to shrinking the government, ending programs and balance the budget?
If you guys have you're way we'll get the HSR...when China calls in it's paper! You can watch it go by as you squat in your tenement.
The numbers on the rich people have already been crunched, and an increase in their tax rates would not begin to solve the problem. If you are proposing taxing their accumulated wealth, then good luck with that. Wealthy people have to ability to move much more so than people with lesser means. Bill Gates has already stated publicly that if a tax on wealth was instituted he would leave the country....and take Microsoft with him. You think unemployment is bad now, wait until the producers and investors flee the country for a lower capital gains tax! They can and they will.
Why are we suddenly enamored with the methods of confiscating earnings and having the state take over industries? How about instead of borrowing money from China we look to shrinking the government, ending programs and balance the budget?
If you guys have you're way we'll get the HSR...when China calls in it's paper! You can watch it go by as you squat in your tenement.