Help! Crossover Juctions and Signals

[CJThorpe]

I am new to the world of trainz and would greatly appreciate help with the following problem.

My aim is to create a system to ‘feed’ trains in and out of a two-platformed station situated and the end of double line. The double line only allows trains to travel on the left-hand track (posting from here the UK) but would allow trains to use either the left or right hand platform at the terminal station. I provisionally decided to use an X shaped junction situated at the end of the station to allow the trains to switch from the left track to the right to accomplish this. I have included a diagram at the end of the post to hopefully illustrate what I am talking about.

My first problem is that I can’t seem to tell the first signal that the train encounters (when either leaving or approaching the station) to stay on red, unless there is a clear path for the train to exit the junction. The obvious problem with this is that if the two platforms at the station were occupied, the ‘third’ train approaching the station would block them from leaving, resulting in lengthy delays and many angry passengers!

My second problem is that I am having problems getting the signals facing the station to only let trains leave on the left hand track.

Here is my crude diagram to hopefullt illustrate what kind of junction I mean...

*Double line*

|| ......||
|| ......||
|| \ ../ ||
|| \\ // ||
|| // \\ ||
|| / ..\ ||
|| ......||
|| ......||

*Station*

 

[Bill69]

Leaving station

Hi CJThorpe,

Have you tried using a direction marker (yellow cone) on the line you don't want the trains to use? Place the direction marker just outside the crossover on the right hand line, making sure the cone is pointing inwards.
That should stop the train from leaving on the right hand line. As for your signal problem I don't quite understand how you have your signals set up so can't comment on that at the moment. Perhaps if you post a screenshot I or somone else may be able to help.
Oh and by the way WELCOME TO TRAINZ.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[worthless]

Signalling problem

I seem to remember reading in the manual (yes, I'm sad, I read manuals) that there is a difficulty in getting signalling rules to work with diamond crossings, like the one you describe.
An alternative approach, which would work, is to have two separate crossovers in sequence, one leading and one trailing. I think you will find this arrangement more frequently in real UK practice than a diamond. The only disadvantage I can think of is that it would occupy a significantly longer stretch of track.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
worthless (a 70-year old beginner)

 

[jellicoe]

If I am understanding you correctly, it seems that with the first part of your query, you are creating a situation that would be unacceptable in prototypical practice: the third train would not be allowed anywhere near the station if there are already two trains occupying the platform roads. I think you should consider adding another block section on the country side of the terminus ie another signal further down the track. As for the second part of your query, you might try adding a "drive via" track mark on the left hand track just past the scissors junction, again on the country side.

 

[kcdowdy]

Very rare...

That some thing like that where i live try this.



|\ |
| \|
| |
| |
| |
| /|
|/ |

Just my 2 cents.

 

[CJThorpe]

Thanks...

Thanks for taking the time to help me out guys, greatly appreciated.
I never knew how addictive this game could be…

 

[steviez]

sorry i have to disagree with Jellicoe
it is quite feasible to allow a third train into a station even though the 2 platforms are occupied
this happens quite alot at Stations like Derby,Birmingham,York etc where there are signals to call a train on into an occupied platform.

This is done quite regularly at New st where say a train from the west terminates at the A end of the platform and a train from the Coventry direction terminates at the B end of the platform or even is called on down the platform to couple with the unit at the A end.

This is current working practice and has been for years.
The problem is that Trainz does no allow for prototypical signalling moves to take place a thing i can find very frustrating having worked with signalling for 30 years.

 

[CJThorpe]

Hi again

I tried using the “scissor” style junction, as described above, and it seems to work a lot more efficiently the “X” style junction I originally used. Also, the track direction markers work a treat for separating traffic onto the correct tracks.

I am still having issues with inbound trains blocking the path of outbound trains, leading a gridlock.

From the screenshot below, can anyone tell me if there is a way to stop the train on the left from entering the junction, unless there is a free platform for it to enter? I am trying to force the signal at the top to stay on red unless the bottom signals, at the platform entrances, are (or will be) on green.

The screenshot below shows one half on the scissor junction nearest to the station.

With reference to the comments about multiple trains occupying one platform, I myself have seen this practice at my local station (Manchester Piccadilly) where sometimes up to three trains occupy the same platform at the same time. Trains come and go whilst one is just sitting there close to the station building.

 

[Bill69]

signals

Hi CJ,
I can't get into that link you supplied. I says "page cannot be displayed"

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[CJThorpe]

Image

Thanks for letting me know Bill. This link should be okay...

 

[Kelly88]

I tried using the “scissor” style junction, as described above, and it seems to work a lot more efficiently the “X” style junction I originally used. Also, the track direction markers work a treat for separating traffic onto the correct tracks.

I am still having issues with inbound trains blocking the path of outbound trains, leading a gridlock.

From the screenshot below, can anyone tell me if there is a way to stop the train on the left from entering the junction, unless there is a free platform for it to enter? I am trying to force the signal at the top to stay on red unless the bottom signals, at the platform entrances, are (or will be) on green.

The screenshot below shows one half on the scissor junction nearest to the station.

With reference to the comments about multiple trains occupying one platform, I myself have seen this practice at my local station (Manchester Piccadilly) where sometimes up to three trains occupy the same platform at the same time. Trains come and go whilst one is just sitting there close to the station building.

is it not possible to run a 3rd line on the inbound leg, just long enough for the longes train that would use the station, inbound units always come in on this line, this will leave both the other lines available for parting trains, then the inbound one would wait on this line untill a plat is available, and not block the 2 exit lines ?!!, this could be a way out if its not a proto route,

​

 

[lewisner]

"Steviez" there IS a way you can allow a second train into a platform.Assuming you are using fixed formation trains (such as a HST or DMU) you decide where the "rear" of the first train in the platform will be (i.e. the end furthest from the buffers) and place an Invisible Signal there so that the driver of the 2nd train will see it when he enters the platform.You also place a Red Marker on the 2nd trains side of the Invisible Signal and name it (e.g.) "Platform 1 Second Train".So, you give the first train an instruction "Drive To"" Platform 1 First train"(a Red Marker placed in front of the buffers) then instruct the 2nd train "Drive To" "Platform 1 Second Train".The Invisible Signal thus tells the Driver that the Platform is empty as far as the Signal , and the Red Marker tells him where to stop.You should allow a clearance of about 30 feet between each train and put a Speed Restriction of 5 mph on the approach to the platform...

 

[Bill69]

Cross overs

Hi CJ,

There are quite a few ways you can stop the incoming train if you don't want it in the platform until after a train has left. I think the simplest way is to place a trackmark back beyond the outer crossover on the left hand line and tell the incoming train to drive to this trackmark, stop, wait for trigger name, drive to platform. On the righthand line you place a trigger ( Green T) also beyond the outer crossover, and tell the outgoing train to drive via a trackmark that will take it over the trigger. The trigger has to be named and the incoming train has to be waiting when the trigger is activated. There is an example of using triggers on my web page, go to http://www.lapsley.net.nz and click on tutorials. There is also a posibility of using the control junction command then the free junction command after the outgoing train has departed.

Control junction kuid:131986:180153
Free junction kuid:131986:180154
Wait for trigger kuid:57344:100066

If you go to the DLS to look for these have a look at other commands by the same authors, there are some very handy commands there.

Hope this helps,
Bill69

 

[CJThorpe]

Commands

Thanks Bill for the information about downloading commands into the program. I was under the impression that such commands were inbuilt into the program already. Your help has now put me on the right track, forgive the pun.

In addition, on your site (Bill) you mentioned pre-programming routes/schedules for consists whilst in surveyor (as appose to doing it driver mode), this will save a lot of time because each time I wanted to test a new configuration I was spending ages setting up the trains.

Thanks once again guys for your help to resolve this issue.

 

[Kelly88]

I think that going in the wrong direction
what he whants is for the unit to be given an instruction like "DRIVE TO xxxPLAT-1" but if the plat is ocupied it would wait outside untill clear, if not ocupied would drive straight in.

with your way if there was no unit on the plat to leave and activate the trigger then it would sit there all day !!?

Hi CJ,

There are quite a few ways you can stop the incoming train if you don't want it in the platform until after a train has left. I think the simplest way is to place a trackmark back beyond the outer crossover on the left hand line and tell the incoming train to drive to this trackmark, stop, wait for trigger name, drive to platform. On the righthand line you place a trigger ( Green T) also beyond the outer crossover, and tell the outgoing train to drive via a trackmark that will take it over the trigger. The trigger has to be named and the incoming train has to be waiting when the trigger is activated. There is an example of using triggers on my web page, go to http://www.lapsley.net.nz and click on tutorials. There is also a posibility of using the control junction command then the free junction command after the outgoing train has departed.

Control junction kuid:131986:180153
Free junction kuid:131986:180154
Wait for trigger kuid:57344:100066

If you go to the DLS to look for these have a look at other commands by the same authors, there are some very handy commands there.

Hope this helps,
Bill69

​

 

[Harry_James_Potter]

I tried using the “scissor” style junction, as described above, and it seems to work a lot more efficiently the “X” style junction I originally used. Also, the track direction markers work a treat for separating traffic onto the correct tracks.

I am still having issues with inbound trains blocking the path of outbound trains, leading a gridlock.

From the screenshot below, can anyone tell me if there is a way to stop the train on the left from entering the junction, unless there is a free platform for it to enter? I am trying to force the signal at the top to stay on red unless the bottom signals, at the platform entrances, are (or will be) on green.

The screenshot below shows one half on the scissor junction nearest to the station.



http://uk.geocities.com/thorpe.colin@btinternet.com/junction2.jpg

With reference to the comments about multiple trains occupying one platform, I myself have seen this practice at my local station (Manchester Piccadilly) where sometimes up to three trains occupy the same platform at the same time. Trains come and go whilst one is just sitting there close to the station building.

I can see the problem straight away.

It's your signalling that's dodgy...

First you need to ask yourself the question "do I need bi-directional signalling or can the same thing be done with a few more junctions and mono-directional signalling."

For the moment, I'd advise using the latter. it's simpler and the AI can understand it better.

As far as I can see, you have 8 signals in that pic and you only need four. I am assuming that this is a replication of an incident you had in TRS driver mode as, in that screenshot, you are actually in surveyor...

you have:-
...........................................SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS
-----s-s---------------s-s----------------------------------s--
..................\
...................\
....................\
.....................\
-----s-s---------------s-s----------------------------------s--
...........................................SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

s=signal
S=station.
.= space because otherwise the ascii art don't work.

it should be more like this...
......--->.....................--->......SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS --->
-----s-------------------s----------------------------------s--
.................\
..................\
...................\
....................\
-----s-------------------s----------------------------------s--
....<---..................... <---.......SSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS <---

Arrows indicate the direction of travel.

In the first example (ie. yours.) TRS sees the track as being clear until the next signal and will allow the left hand train to proceed thus blocking the line onwards for the right hand train on the lower track.

In my example, the left hand train waits until the right hand train has cleared the block and then proceeds when the route is clear.

give that a try and see what happens.

regards

harry

edit... the ascii art didn't work as planned... so I've changed it.

 

[Bill69]

Junction control

I think that going in the wrong direction
what he whants is for the unit to be given an instruction like "DRIVE TO xxxPLAT-1" but if the plat is ocupied it would wait outside untill clear, if not ocupied would drive straight in.

with your way if there was no unit on the plat to leave and activate the trigger then it would sit there all day !!?

Yes Kell88,

I think I know that. It depends on how CJ is running his schedules. That is why I also mentioned the control junction commands.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[fec210]

I agree with Harry_James_Potter. There shouldn't be the back to back signals on both sides of the crossovers.

I use multidirectional signalling. But, I have only four signals protecting the crossover. Each signal faces away from the crossover. In other words, as a train approaches the crossover, it should see the signal (and its indication). Then, if the signal is not red, the train would pass that signal, then the crossover. Then, the train would see the back of the signal on the other side of the crossover.

 

[davidbird]

I'm no expert on signalling, but I would have thought the way to signal the arrangement in the screenshot would simply be to remove the 2 "inbound" signals at the end of the platforms. Then the incoming train would wait clear of the crossover until the farside train has left the station. The 2 remaining inbound signals would have some form of indicator to tell the driver which platform he is to run into. Snowsignal has a payware signal pack that will give you "theatre" indications ie a "1" or a "2", or bloodnok (search for username=bloodnok on the DLS) has signals that will give "feather" indications of a route.
If your 2 crossovers are close together then the inbound signal (just one) with indicator would be before both crossovers, otherwise at least a train length should be left between them - giving a short stretch of bi-directional line.
As I said, I'm no expert, but that seems to be correct, and would work in Trainz...