Have You seen this

[WindWalkr]

I can understand some of what you're trying to say, but it seems that there must be some sort of error checking routine in TS2009 as CM2 will show whether there are any faults or warnings. Isn't it possible to apply the same sort of routine to the DLS to check older version uploads and reject any uploads to the DLS that show the same sort of errors that 2009 CM2 shows?

That's exactly what we have currently. The problem I'm referring to is that our validation (both CM and DLS) actively suppress a lot of really obvious errors when processing older content simply because we do want some of the content to work.

I've said all along that I'm willing to pay for DLS activity.

It's not a question of payment, it's a question of removing support for the old hacks and techniques that have long since been replaced.


One mistake that a lot of TRS2004 users are making in this discussion is that they consider themselves Auran customers, and expect us to act accordingly. While some few of them definitely still are, (thanks guys!), the great majority of TRS2004 users have not been our customers for about four years now. They may still be part of our community, and that's great. In many cases, they're not even that. But confusing 'community member' for 'customer' is not something that Auran can do if we want to stay in business.

This confusion then follows on to content creator expectations. If TRS2004 users are not our customers, then are TRS2004 content creators our content creators? This is a bit more ambiguous- certainly the newer products are designed to be able to load old content. Whether it's beneficial to us- that varies a lot from item to item. Let's just say that "losing" two TRS2004 creators and gaining one TS2010 creator as a result would be beneficial to us in the long run.

Keep in mind that Auran isn't really a content creation company, and hasn't been for a long time. It's in our interest to work with content creators who are pushing the boundaries, making the best content, using all the new features that we add. TRS2004 content creators generally don't fall into that category. (Again, there are always exceptions.)

So I guess you could say- while we have the utmost appreciation for every creator that produces Trainz content, whether great or small- we can't afford to forever subsidise people who are not our customers at the expense of our paying customers. If you have a legitimate reason why you can't upgrade from TRS2004 - for example, your computer is very old and you really can't afford to fix it - then yes, we can't really support you forever. I'm sorry that we have to leave you behind, but we're not a charity. We hope you've enjoyed the ride, and we're sure that you'll continue to do so even without our support.

For everyone else, get ready for some fun changes as some of the limitations are removed from our systems.

chris

ps. These are my personal thoughts on the matter and don't necessarily reflect the views of Auran as a whole or other staff members.

 

[meridious]

Let's just say that "losing" two TRS2004 creators and gaining one TS2010 creator as a result would be beneficial to us in the long run.

The problem I see here is that anything can be made and have a 09 or 10 build number put into it. Unless I'm totally missing something here, how is this any different than creating something with an 04/06 build number ?

 

[Sampug394]

One mistake that a lot of TRS2004 users are making in this discussion is that they consider themselves Auran customers, and expect us to act accordingly.

!!! If a person buys a product from a company, they sure-as-hell are classified as a customer no matter what!

Let's just say that "losing" two TRS2004 creators and gaining one TS2010 creator as a result would be beneficial to us in the long run.

...So casting away two senior members into oblivion, that have the know how of content creation that can be applied to Higher standards, (Read; If they WANT TO), and replacing them with one Newer member that doesn't grasp as many of the ropes as the senior members, is BETTER?


I Beg Freaking Pardon sir!

 

[WindWalkr]

The problem I see here is that anything can be made and have a 09 or 10 build number put into it. Unless I'm totally missing something here, how is this any different than creating something with an 04/06 build number ?

If you specify a later trainz-build version, your content will be held to higher standards.

Consider?! If a person buys a product from a company, they sure-as-hell are classified as a customer!

Correct. Which is why I'm referring to a group of people that have not bought from us in the past four years.

...So casting away two senior members into oblivion, that have the know how of content creation that can be applied to Higher standards, (Read; If they WANT TO), and replacing them with one Newer member that doesn't grasp as many of the ropes as the senior members, is BETTER?

Who said anything about new or old members? I was painting the likeliness that one of the creators may leave, and one would stay.

Honestly, being "senior" is not a benefit anyway, and may be a liability. There are some very good creators out there. Some of them have been around for quite a while. Some have not, relatively speaking. We don't judge how good they are based on how long they've been around.

Of the creators who have been around for a while, some of them are keeping up with the times (again, thanks to these guys!) and some are deliberately not. How is refusing to keep your knowledge current a benefit to the community as a whole? It's not. It's always an individual choice, and I'm certainly not going to criticise people for what they do for fun, but it's not a benefit to the Auran's current and future customers, and thus we can't justify subsidising it.

kind regards,

chris

 

[leeferr]

That's exactly what we have currently. The problem I'm referring to is that our validation (both CM and DLS) actively suppress a lot of really obvious errors when processing older content simply because we do want some of the content to work.




It's not a question of payment, it's a question of removing support for the old hacks and techniques that have long since been replaced.


One mistake that a lot of TRS2004 users are making in this discussion is that they consider themselves Auran customers, and expect us to act accordingly. While some few of them definitely still are, (thanks guys!), the great majority of TRS2004 users have not been our customers for about four years now. They may still be part of our community, and that's great. In many cases, they're not even that. But confusing 'community member' for 'customer' is not something that Auran can do if we want to stay in business.

This confusion then follows on to content creator expectations. If TRS2004 users are not our customers, then are TRS2004 content creators our content creators? This is a bit more ambiguous- certainly the newer products are designed to be able to load old content. Whether it's beneficial to us- that varies a lot from item to item. Let's just say that "losing" two TRS2004 creators and gaining one TS2010 creator as a result would be beneficial to us in the long run.

Keep in mind that Auran isn't really a content creation company, and hasn't been for a long time. It's in our interest to work with content creators who are pushing the boundaries, making the best content, using all the new features that we add. TRS2004 content creators generally don't fall into that category. (Again, there are always exceptions.)

So I guess you could say- while we have the utmost appreciation for every creator that produces Trainz content, whether great or small- we can't afford to forever subsidise people who are not our customers at the expense of our paying customers. If you have a legitimate reason why you can't upgrade from TRS2004 - for example, your computer is very old and you really can't afford to fix it - then yes, we can't really support you forever. I'm sorry that we have to leave you behind, but we're not a charity. We hope you've enjoyed the ride, and we're sure that you'll continue to do so even without our support.

For everyone else, get ready for some fun changes as some of the limitations are removed from our systems.

chris

ps. These are my personal thoughts on the matter and don't necessarily reflect the views of Auran as a whole or other staff members.

It appears that content creation is gradually moving toward a professional quality of expectation and if that's what you and your 'customers' want, that's fine, but I think expectations are a little high if Auran is planning for a lot of professional quality content to start showing up anytime soon. I'm not sure that you're going to get that 1 for 2 ratio that you're hoping for, but only time will tell. You'll probably get the 2, but I'm not so sure about the 1.

Well, at least you've let us know where you stand. I'll give you credit for that at least.

Mike

 

[WindWalkr]

It appears that content creation is gradually moving toward a professional quality of expectation

While we love professional quality content, the main thing we are asking for is content that is built to somewhat recent standards. An amateur content creator who started in TS2009 would be building to that level, unless they were taught by someone who only uses the older standards.

Building content for TS2009/TS2010 is actually easier than building for the older versions of Trainz. Yes, there are a lot more options open, and if you try to exercise all of those options you will have a lot to learn. As with anything, start simple.

kind regards,

chris

 

[sparky15]

The problem I see is that Auran is not a content creation company. Every version of Trainz I have, including 09, is packed full of third party content all the way down to 04. Where did that come from?

Since you don't create content does that make Auran an 04 user's customer? Pretty bad dig my friend considering Auran has profited quite well using freely uploaded content they didn't create.

Who is subsidizing who here and who is enjoying the ride? Are 04 creators your creators? Since every version of Trainz I own up until 09 is full of their content I would say yes. Pretty bold statement from a company relying so heavily on customers not only for sales but the purchase of what you use for free.

Dave.....

 

[Sampug394]

The problem I see is that Auran is not a content creation company. Every version of Trainz I have, including 09, is packed full of third party content all the way down to 04. Where did that come from?

Since you don't create content does that make Auran an 04 user's customer? Pretty bad dig my friend considering Auran has profited quite well using freely uploaded content they didn't create.

Who is subsidizing who here and who is enjoying the ride? Are 04 creators your creators? Since every version of Trainz I own up until 09 is full of their content I would say yes. Pretty bold statement from a company relying so heavily on customers not only for sales but the purchase of what you use for free.

Dave.....

Complete and Utter Genius sir.

 

[Buffalo_trains93]

The problem I see is that Auran is not a content creation company. Every version of Trainz I have, including 09, is packed full of third party content all the way down to 04. Where did that come from?

Since you don't create content does that make Auran an 04 user's customer? Pretty bad dig my friend considering Auran has profited quite well using freely uploaded content they didn't create.

Who is subsidizing who here and who is enjoying the ride? Are 04 creators your creators? Since every version of Trainz I own up until 09 is full of their content I would say yes. Pretty bold statement from a company relying so heavily on customers not only for sales but the purchase of what you use for free.

Dave.....

.

Correct. Which is why I'm referring to a group of people that have not bought from us in the past four years.

David,

I think you hit the nail on the head.

Chris,

I didn't think time deteremined who was or was not a costumer. I thought a customer is someone who buys a product from a provider. As long as they bought any # of products, they're still a customer, or so I have been taught.
Please do not take any mean or rudeness away from this, I'm just trying to clear things up in my own mind.

Just my humble 2 cents.

Take care,

Ryan:wave:

 

[meridious]

Guys, lighten up on Chris. I've been critical but once I actually started listening I respect him for doing so. He comes here on HIS time. To me that means he is as passionate about Trainz as we are. He has told his feelings about Trainz time and again. From his standpoint, I can understand where he comes from. I may not agree with everything but I do understand.

As for my content ever getting totally to newer standards, I don't know if that will ever happen. I'm not saying it won't in the future. The one thing I focus on is normal mapping. It takes a bit to get used to but I can do it. However, not everything needs to have them. Not everything needs to have LOD. It really depends on what you make. Take my signs for instance. Can you imagine what they would look like with normal maps. They certainly don't need to have different lods.

 

[leeferr]

While we love professional quality content, the main thing we are asking for is content that is built to somewhat recent standards. An amateur content creator who started in TS2009 would be building to that level, unless they were taught by someone who only uses the older standards.

Building content for TS2009/TS2010 is actually easier than building for the older versions of Trainz. Yes, there are a lot more options open, and if you try to exercise all of those options you will have a lot to learn. As with anything, start simple.

kind regards,

chris

I can't even figure out what the standards are because there's no CCG to guide me. I've tried the wiki and find it next to impossible to find what I'm looking for in a reasonable amount of time if at all. Give me something that I can print out and study at my leisure without having to stare at a computer screen. It's hard to play by the rules when I can't figure out what the rules are.

I don't know about all of my content, but I just edited one of my 04 assets in TS2009 CMP and upgraded it to build 2.9. It did just fine with no errors, so that 2004 asset must have already met 09 standards. Why deny it to users of previous versions. I could go through and upgrade all of them and it would probably take awhile to do 500 assets. I'm assuming that the paintshed assets won't upgrade. I really feel sorry for creators like Bendorsey if he by chance decides to upgrade over 3,000 bridges and I know that I'd hate to be denied access to his wonderful creations.

Mike:wave:

 

[leeferr]

Guys, lighten up on Chris. I've been critical but once I actually started listening I respect him for doing so. He comes here on HIS time. To me that means he is as passionate about Trainz as we are. He has told his feelings about Trainz time and again. From his standpoint, I can understand where he comes from. I may not agree with everything but I do understand.......

I'm not trying to be hard on Chris. I appreciate his being here also and giving us his views, but I assume that he's responding to us because he's interested in our views. Like I said before, I give him credit for answering us. Since I've bought quite a few products in the past few years, I think that qualifies me as a customer and as a customer, I should be able to express my views as long as they're civil. After all, this is really the only complaint department that we have.

Mike

 

[WindWalkr]

I didn't think time deteremined who was or was not a costumer. I thought a customer is someone who buys a product from a provider. As long as they bought any # of products, they're still a customer, or so I have been taught.
Please do not take any mean or rudeness away from this, I'm just trying to clear things up in my own mind.

None taken. I guess that's a matter of contextual interpretation, and also tense. I think I've made myself pretty clear about what I mean when I say "customer" here, so I think my meaning is understood.

For example, from Wikipedia: "A customer, also called client, buyer, or purchaser, is usually used to refer to a current or potential buyer or user of the products of an individual or organization, called the supplier, seller, or vendor. This is typically through purchasing or renting goods or services." (emphasis mine.)

Since you don't create content does that make Auran an 04 user's customer?

No, but it does mean that we have a somewhat symbiotic relationship. It is in our interest to make it easy for people to create content which may make it into our future products.

Are 04 creators your creators? Since every version of Trainz I own up until 09 is full of their content I would say yes.

They once were, and for that we thank them, and have supported them. It's well past time that we all moved on, and this is the first step in that direction.

kind regards,

chris

 

[meridious]

That was not directed at you Mike. I know your intentions and I'm with you on that. But there are some taking what he is saying way out of context. He is expressing his views from a business standpoint. Probably from a personal standpoint as well.
Yes, I consider myself and you to be current customers since we both have the newer versions of Trainz. Because we create using an old version does not make that any less true. I don't come here asking for help with 04. The software or content. I ask questions about some things that I don't understand. That way I know what will work and what won't when I do start creating for 09 and newer.

I can't even figure out what the standards are because there's no CCG to guide me. I've tried the wiki and find it next to impossible to find what I'm looking for in a reasonable amount of time if at all. Give me something that I can print out and study at my leisure without having to stare at a computer screen. It's hard to play by the rules when I can't figure out what the rules are.

Now this part I agree with 100%. I can't make heads or tails out of it either. When I started creating, I printed out the whole UTC guide. All 100+ pages of it. My wife thought I was nuts. Unfortunately, and I mean no disrespect here, I really don't see another guide coming. Hence the wiki. When things in the game get broken or changed, you can change the info on the wiki. Much easier to do that.

 

[leeferr]

That was not directed at you Mike. I know your intentions and I'm with you on that. But there are some taking what he is saying way out of context. He is expressing his views from a business standpoint. Probably from a personal standpoint as well.
Yes, I consider myself and you to be current customers since we both have the newer versions of Trainz. Because we create using an old version does not make that any less true. I don't come here asking for help with 04. The software or content. I ask questions about some things that I don't understand. That way I know what will work and what won't when I do start creating for 09 and newer.



Now this part I agree with 100%. I can't make heads or tails out of it either. When I started creating, I printed out the whole UTC guide. All 100+ pages of it. My wife thought I was nuts. Unfortunately, and I mean no disrespect here, I really don't see another guide coming. Hence the wiki. When things in the game get broken or changed, you can change the info on the wiki. Much easier to do that.

I didn't think that you were directing it at me, but I wanted to make sure that I wasn't getting out of line. I think that you and I are on the same sheet of music here.

I'm like you, I printed the entire CCG for 2004 and TC. I ususally study them when I'm sitting and watching TV or when I go to pick up my grandson at school and need something to read while I'm waiting. I used to carry the 2004 CCG with me just about everywhere that I went. I find it difficult to sit and stare at a computer screen reading a wiki.

Mike

 

[Zorronov]

I can't believe that I'm actually siding with the "old guard" here. I guess, if you stick around long enough, strange things can happen. WindWalkr...I don't really care about your business or the wikipedia definition of a customer. I play Trainz because it's my hobby and one of my passions. I don't think that your company really cares about that anymore. You're just trying to avoid going belly up. I don't think alienating your customers with this recent crap is going to save you.

Cheers,
Fred

 

[Sampug394]

...I don't really care about your business or the wikipedia definition of a customer. I play Trainz because it's my hobby and one of my passions. I don't think that your company really cares about that anymore. You're just trying to avoid going belly up. I don't think alienating your customers with this recent crap is going to save you...

Alas, such a Blunt, agreeable point...

 

[pommie]

I can't believe that I'm actually siding with the "old guard" here. I guess, if you stick around long enough, strange things can happen. WindWalkr...I don't really care about your business or the wikipedia definition of a customer. I play Trainz because it's my hobby and one of my passions. I don't think that your company really cares about that anymore. You're just trying to avoid going belly up. I don't think alienating your customers with this recent crap is going to save you.

Cheers,
Fred

Precisely!!!

 

[paul502]

WindWalkr...I don't really care about your business or the wikipedia definition of a customer. I play Trainz because it's my hobby and one of my passions. I don't think that your company really cares about that anymore. You're just trying to avoid going belly up. I don't think alienating your customers with this recent crap is going to save you.

This is exactly the kind of customer Auran can afford to lose. They are not a charity, solely here for those who bought the game years ago & nothing else since. If any here are refusing to upgrade simply as a matter of principle, then thats their loss !

 

[amigacooke]

Hmmm, so it seems I'm a customer of Amiga Inc because I bought a computer from them in 1987. I must go and demand that they continue to support my product with upgrades.

Not sure I'm going to get very far as they went bankrupt in 1992. Clearly that was a ploy to avoid giving me my rightful support 23 years later.