Have You seen this

[RRSignal]

I can understand both sides here and would like to offer two possible solutions:

1. Auran set up a separate TS2004/06-only server, issue patches to point to the new address, and charge 04/06 users for access. I'm guessing there are enough 04/06 fans on these message boards alone that you could charge them an annual FCT and it would easily cover hosting costs for all TS2004 users.

2. If Auran is not willing to budge on #1, TS2004/06 fans form a group - preferably, a non-profit - and set up their own hosting, and collecting annual dues for access. This would probably cost more, but would be a last resort if Auran wants to be ------- about this. Writing a patch to redirect customers to the "new" DLS would be a cinch.

Frankly, I think #1 was is the best solution for all - the users, the content creators, and for Auran's customer relations.

 

[Smileyman]

As I've already said, I understand why Auran want to do this.
Most companies do this, and small companies like Auran cannot afford to provide support for older versions.

Maybe the DLS backlog catastrophe that was caused by the Christmas break brought this to Auran's attention.
They just don't have the resources to support a game that was released so long ago.

The comment about giving TRS2004 away with TS2010 and then removing support for it was a good point though.
Was this a touch of genius from the marketing guys, or just another blow on an already sore point.
I fear the latter.

If you think this situation is bad, you wait until you see what's on the horizon!
I have no inside knowledge, and I haven't been talking to anyone, but I'm casting my mind back to about 2 years ago, and a public conversation that took place with Auran's top dogs here on these forums.
If I'm right, it will defintely mean the end of my Trainz journey.

Can anyone else remember said conversation, and to what I'm referring to?

Smiley.

 

[Mike10]

The comment about giving TRS2004 away with TS2010 and then removing support for it was a good point though.
Was this a touch of genius from the marketing guys, or just another blow on an already sore point.
I fear the latter.

Or, rather than being a conspiracy or a con maybe they just thought.... "hey, rather than throwing these copies of TRS2004 in the skip when we stop selling them, why don't we give them away to people."

Can anyone else remember said conversation, and to what I'm referring to?

No.

 

[NikkiA]

That's true, but I don't think that alienating those of us that create in '04 is going to help that cause.

Lets talk about alienation for a minute...

Those of you that are working in '04, and refuse to upgrade 'because auran keep doing things wrong', and refuse to fix your assets so that they'll work in 09 and 10, and have opted out of project TARM (because 'dag nab it, I designed my work for 2004, and that's the best version, and noone should bother with newer versions'), or worse still, you rant about how you won't update your assets because 'auran broke feature X, it worked perfectly in 1.3'...

YOU are the ones alienating people, you're alienating Auran's customers, and probably Auran themselves.

A new trainz user comes along, and sees the sheer size of the DLS, and is excited. Then they rapidly find out that things on the DLS are broken, so they ask if it'll be updated for newer versions, and get 'no! 2004 is better!'.

The new trainz user limps off, realising that trainz is a desolate wasteland of dead and unsupported content, a game once fun, but now languishing.

Rather than buy a copy of 2004 and put up without new features, they're more likely to go to one of the other train simulators (and no, Railworks isn't *all* payware, there is a fair amount of freeware content once you learn where to look, and the authors are generally happy to have feedback and eager to improve their content).

Auran will never succeed while people like you hold them back. To that goal, Auran must raze and rebuild the DLS, with content that is compatible, rather than the decaying compost heap of dead and forgotten content it is now. Yes, trainz is built on user-content, but if that content doesn't work with something that they can make profitable, then what benefit is there for auran to placate you any longer? They're better off cutting out the deadwood and letting others take your place.

 

[john_goddard]

Lets talk about alienation for a minute...

Those of you that are working in '04, and refuse to upgrade 'because auran keep doing things wrong', and refuse to fix your assets so that they'll work in 09 and 10, and have opted out of project TARM (because 'dag nab it, I designed my work for 2004, and that's the best version, and noone should bother with newer versions'), or worst stil, you rant about how you won't update your assets because 'auran broke feature X, it worked perfectly in 1.3'...

YOU are the ones alienating people, you're alienating Auran's customers, and probably Auran themselves.

A new trainz user comes along, and sees the sheer size of the DLS, and is excited. Then they rapidly find out that things on the DLS are broken, so they ask if it'll be updated for newer versions, and get 'no! 2004 is better!'.

The new trainz user limps off, realising that trainz is a desolate wasteland of dead and unsupported content, a game once fun, but not languishing.

Rather than buy a copy of 2004 and put up without new features, they're more likely to go to one of the other train simulators (and no, Railworks isn't *all* payware, there is a fair amount of freeware content once you learn where to look, and the authors are generally happy to have feedback and eager to improve their content).

Auran will never succeed while people like you hold them back. To that goal, Auran must raze and rebuild the DLS, with content that is compatible, rather than the decaying compost heap of dead and forgotten content it is now. Yes, trainz is built on user-content, but if that content doesn't work with something that they can make profitable, then what benefit is there for auran to placate you any longer? They're better off cutting out the deadwood and letting others take your place.

Very well put!! I look forward to Auran continuing to improve Trainz and if they are held back by this insistence on compatability with faulty assets this will be hard for them to achieve. By purchasing the new versions you are helping to fund this, I have bought every version since 2004 and think it was money well spent, John.

 

[Darkdan]

YOU are the ones alienating people, you're alienating Auran's customers, and probably Auran themselves.

Maybe I could agree with you if the item creators uploading to the DLS were paid for doing that but they give they work free for all of us AND they even give Auran the right to make money with their work using it as is own build-in content in each Trainz version they sell.

What are the cost of 2004, 06 support? Not much : no more patches, no more add-on. A little part of the forum maybe...

What about better quality items then? The only way to have better items on the DLS is by using better quality control in the upload process. Items makers will not become suddenly smarter because they create from 2010. They will do as many mistakes and typos as 2004 or 06 makers. The only difference wil be (I hope) the new quality control to be accepted to the DSL and that control is in no way linked to a version of Trainz and could easily be reinforced for 2004 or 06 items in the same move.

It is sure that this is only a commercial move from Auran to force their customers to buy a new version of Trainz as soon as possible when it is out and I can understand that because they are in need of sales and money.

BUT...

I think you can live as a sort of open service and then ask to your customers to contribute daily giving their work for free to help the company to make money OR you can act like a normal commercial game company asking his clients to upgrade their software (and maybe their hardware too) each couple of years but then like all that kind of a company, you will have to build your own content and not ask for a free contribution to people who paid for the software but may be left behind at each new version of Trainz.

My 2 cents and sorry for my poor english.

 

[meridious]

'because auran keep doing things wrong',

This is probably the exact reason why many don't want to upgrade.

YOU are the ones alienating people, you're alienating Auran's customers, and probably Auran themselves.

Oh why don't we get really dramatic about it.

Rather than buy a copy of 2004 and put up without new features, they're more likely to go to one of the other train simulators (and no, Railworks isn't *all* payware, there is a fair amount of freeware content once you learn where to look, and the authors are generally happy to have feedback and eager to improve their content).

You don't think that many of them do that already ?

Auran will never succeed while people like you hold them back.

According to you then, we've held them back for years. Funny how they are still going.

To that goal, Auran must raze and rebuild the DLS, with content that is compatible, rather than the decaying compost heap of dead and forgotten content it is now.

Maybe you missed all the points that the biggest majority of content on the dls is compatible with 09 and 10. I have over 500 assets at the dls. Out of those, I have close to 400 assets at the dls that work perfectly fine in 09s native mode. Even though they work perfectly fine, most have a trainz build of 1.5. Which is UTC btw. But hey, let's get rid of them because they aren't compatible. Oh, I see. Some of you think that for them to be compatible, they must have the build number for 09 or 10.

Yes, trainz is built on user-content, but if that content doesn't work with something that they can make profitable, then what benefit is there for auran to placate you any longer? They're better off cutting out the deadwood and letting others take your place.

Like you and some others that have been commenting lately? Having released only one piece of content to the dls or none like another person talking crap lately, gives you no right to tell any content creator what he/she should do with their content. Especially if it works fine with native mode.

 

[pommie]

While the below is a quote from an earlier post I am using it as an example not quoting directly.

"It is sure that this is only a commercial move from Auran to force their customers to buy a new version of Trainz as soon as possible when it is out and I can understand that because they are in need of sales and money."

This has been said many times in this debate, where is the proof, also might I ask just who is holding the gun at your collective heads and forcing you to buy the latest version?

Has Auran made the right choices, only time will tell, my opinion and only my opinion is yes they have, but everybody is entitled to have an opinion, and also the right to be able to express it in these forums without being berated for doing so, or being told that they have not created anything so are not entitled to express their opinion

The decision has been made and the community should be pulling together to work around those decisions if that is what is wanted, instead of, well, to be blunt, ranting about it.

As an aside, I always thought that creators made things for their own enjoyment and the community benefited from this, it seems I was wrong and a lot of them, well the vocal ones, did it as work and got no pleasure from it at all, I may of only done some skies but I enjoyed doing them and still get a bit of a buzz when I see the number of downloads climb :hehe:

Cheers David

 

[n8phu]

Here's my thoughts on this whole situation:

The only issue I have is that some clarification is needed on what is going to happen to the older content.

Is it all just going to go away at once?

Will it be a phased event, where the oldest stuff goes first?

Will a timetable be posted so folks know that they need to get downloading to either "get it or forget it?".

Will a request be put out to the creators of said content to PLEASE re-upload their content to the new standard?

Whats going to happen to the content that belongs to creators who are no longer in the community?

A thread was started that perhaps Auran would allow the older content to be downloaded to another server or site not owned by Auran. If that is an option, how is the content creator's EULA going to be circumvented due to the "Can only be uploaded to the DLS" provision? (04/06/TC creators, I suggest that this line be deleted from future uploads until this all shakes out.)

Something to think about.

Until this all works out, I would highly suggest getting some blank DVD/CDs and get to backing up any downloads/WIPs/Local folders you have. My count on this endeavor so far is 20 DVDs, and I still have to do my Local folder.

1 Terrabyte book shelve drives that plug into your computer via USB are in the $100 range. Might be time to look at one.

Chris

 

[Scitimar]

Until this all works out, I would highly suggest getting some blank DVD/CDs and get to backing up any downloads/WIPs/Local folders you have. My count on this endeavor so far is 20 DVDs, and I still have to do my Local folder.

1 Terrabyte book shelve drives that plug into your computer via USB are in the $100 range. Might be time to look at one.

Chris

Why not download a copy of blender , it's free , and use some of your spare time , that's also free , and build items for yourself as and when you please... you gain knowledge and self sufficiency .. that's priceless

 

[Buffalo_trains93]

1 Terrabyte book shelve drives that plug into your computer via USB are in the $100 range. Might be time to look at one.

Chris

Chris,

I respect your opinion, but I don't have 100$ to go blow off over, and don't have the patience to back every thing up. I applaud you for doing that because I can't. Say I have a route that is already at 1,350 some odd dependincies, and I'm not even 3/4th's done with it. Those are all dependincies from 06 or below, because seeing as my 09 is shot, I can't import it up. So, when I release my route, and there are dependincies that NV3/Auran has taken off the DLS, what are the people that are going to download it forced to to do? Plus, let's not forget Slave-Driver's statistics. Here is the exact phrase:

Of the 10,186 locomotives on the DLS a mere 128 are for versions above TRS06. That's 1.25%.

Of the 15,532 non-locomotive rolling stock items only 167 are for versions above TRS06. That's almost exactly 1%.

They cannot possibly be serious about removing 'old' content in any time frame whatsoever.


So, due to this info, how can a thing such as removing older content, even be considered! I just can't wrap my mind around it.

Take care,

Ryan:wave:

P.S. I am NOT bashing anyone, nor trying to be rude to anyone, so please do not take it that way, I am only stating my humble opinion.

 

[n8phu]

Why not download a copy of blender , it's free , and use some of your spare time , that's also free , and build items for yourself as and when you please... you gain knowledge and self sufficiency .. that's priceless

I do have all those. The point was to save whatever you have right now, in case your computer decides to take an unannounced holiday and the content is no longer available on the DLS.

 

[n8phu]

Chris,

I respect your opinion, but I don't have 100$ to go blow off over, and don't have the patience to back every thing up. I applaud you for doing that because I can't. Say I have a route that is already at 1,350 some odd dependincies, and I'm not even 3/4th's done with it. Those are all dependincies from 06 or below, because seeing as my 09 is shot, I can't import it up. So, when I release my route, and there are dependincies that NV3/Auran has taken off the DLS, what are the people that are going to download it forced to to do? Plus, let's not forget Slave-Driver's statistics. Here is the exact phrase:

Of the 10,186 locomotives on the DLS a mere 128 are for versions above TRS06. That's 1.25%.

Of the 15,532 non-locomotive rolling stock items only 167 are for versions above TRS06. That's almost exactly 1%.

They cannot possibly be serious about removing 'old' content in any time frame whatsoever.


So, due to this info, how can a thing such as removing older content, even be considered! I just can't wrap my mind around it.

Take care,

Ryan:wave:

P.S. I am NOT bashing anyone, nor trying to be rude to anyone, so please do not take it that way, I am only stating my humble opinion.

I understand, the reality of real life economics stinks.

I suggested the DVD/CD backup so people can hold onto what they have in case things get mucked up. Blank DVDs are getting cheaper. In addition some backup programs can be told to automatically do their thing while you are sleeping or at work.

 

[meridious]

Honestly David, it doesn't matter what you, I or anyone else says anymore. The damage was done to this community some years ago.

Will it ever fully recover ? No
Will it recover to a degree ? It seems to recover until something like this comes along and splits this community once again.
Has this community ever fully gotten along with each other ? No, but that's just human nature.

Many of us disagree with alot of the decisions that have made by Auran. However, many of us are still here. Which means one thing. We are passionate about this piece of software called Trainz.

For the record, I've never said that people aren't entitled to their opinion. But, when they start trying to tell creators what they should do with their content, that goes a little to far. That is not an opinion. I have no right to tell you that you need to update your content to 09 standards. Just as you have no right to tell me. I have no right to tell Auran that they need to keep the DLS the way it is. They've made a decision. I don't like it but I accept it. I have no control over it.

Now on the other hand....Since the dls is owned by Auran, they do the right to tell creators to update content or risk having it deleted from their servers. I have already begun to update my "faulty" content. However, I will not make it exclusive to 09 and above. They still have build numbers for 04. They do work perfectly fine in 09 native mode so how is it they they don't comply to the new standards. They don't have an 09 build number and there are no normal maps. So does that make them not compliant ?

 

[NikkiA]

Like you and some others that have been commenting lately? Having released only one piece of content to the dls or none like another person talking crap lately, gives you no right to tell any content creator what he/she should do with their content. Especially if it works fine with native mode.

So basically anyone new to Trainz is worthless in your opinion, and you really believe you're not alienating auran's potential customers?

 

[meridious]

So basically anyone new to Trainz is worthless in your opinion, and you really believe you're not alienating auran's potential customers?

I never said you or anyone else is worthless. I merely am pointing out that you have no right to tell creators that they "need" to update their content. I have no right to tell anyone this either.

How am I alienating potential customers ? The biggest majority of my content works perfectly fine in my 09 native mode. Many of those that don't are things like Paint Shed items. If anything, they are the ones to potentially alienate by removing old content from the DLS. Whether they do this or not, only time will tell. If they do, people do have other avenues to host content.

BTW, can someone explain to me how hosting content is actually supporting a product. The TPR depot hosts content for 06 and we don't support that at all.

 

[leeferr]

Lets talk about alienation for a minute...

Those of you that are working in '04, and refuse to upgrade 'because auran keep doing things wrong', and refuse to fix your assets so that they'll work in 09 and 10, and have opted out of project TARM (because 'dag nab it, I designed my work for 2004, and that's the best version, and noone should bother with newer versions'), or worse still, you rant about how you won't update your assets because 'auran broke feature X, it worked perfectly in 1.3'...

YOU are the ones alienating people, you're alienating Auran's customers, and probably Auran themselves.

A new trainz user comes along, and sees the sheer size of the DLS, and is excited. Then they rapidly find out that things on the DLS are broken, so they ask if it'll be updated for newer versions, and get 'no! 2004 is better!'.

The new trainz user limps off, realising that trainz is a desolate wasteland of dead and unsupported content, a game once fun, but now languishing.

Rather than buy a copy of 2004 and put up without new features, they're more likely to go to one of the other train simulators (and no, Railworks isn't *all* payware, there is a fair amount of freeware content once you learn where to look, and the authors are generally happy to have feedback and eager to improve their content).

Auran will never succeed while people like you hold them back. To that goal, Auran must raze and rebuild the DLS, with content that is compatible, rather than the decaying compost heap of dead and forgotten content it is now. Yes, trainz is built on user-content, but if that content doesn't work with something that they can make profitable, then what benefit is there for auran to placate you any longer? They're better off cutting out the deadwood and letting others take your place.

How dare you to try to lecture me about alienation. I have indeed upgraded. I've purchased 2006, 2009 and 2010 when each came out in support of Auran. I don't care for them, but I buy them to support the cause.

Most of my 2004 assets on the DLS work perfectly fine in 2009 Native Mode (I don't know about 2010 since my discs were faulty and I'm being sent a new disc 1) and I'm working on the ones that don't. I'm not fixing them because anyone asked me to, but because I wanted to in support of the community. Out of a little over 500 assets of mine on the DLS, 67 of them had a problem in 2009. I have fixed 62 of them and I just got an email from Auran that they'll be on the DLS in 6 hours. I only have 5 left to fix. By the way, the fault with 58 of them was only a few spaces behind the category-era tag in the config that 2009 didn't like.

Now, I've gone through the effort of creating all of these assets, fixed the faulty ones, placed them on the DLS, purchased new versions as they came out and your trying to tell me that I'm alienating members.

I haven't ranted anything about Auran breaking anything. All that I've said is that 2004 uploads should be allowed as long as they work fine in 2009 native mode.

So you tell me where I've held them back. Take your blinders off.

Mike

 

[mikeman]

How dare you to try to lecture me about alienation. I have indeed upgraded. I've purchased 2006, 2009 and 2010 when each came out in support of Auran. I don't care for them, but I buy them to support the cause.

Most of my 2004 assets on the DLS work perfectly fine in 2009 Native Mode (I don't know about 2010 since my discs were faulty and I'm being sent a new disc 1) and I'm working on the ones that don't. I'm not fixing them because anyone asked me to, but because I wanted to in support of the community. Out of a little over 500 assets of mine on the DLS, 67 of them had a problem in 2009. I have fixed 62 of them and I just got an email from Auran that they'll be on the DLS in 6 hours. I only have 5 left to fix. By the way, the fault with 58 of them was only a few spaces behind the category-era tag in the config that 2009 didn't like.

Now, I've gone through the effort of creating all of these assets, fixed the faulty ones, placed them on the DLS, purchased new versions as they came out and your trying to tell me that I'm alienating members.

I haven't ranted anything about Auran breaking anything. All that I've said is that 2004 uploads should be allowed as long as they work fine in 2009 native mode.

So you tell me where I've held them back. Take your blinders off.

Mike

Well stated leeferr. I am not sure how exactly Auran's (in my opinion correct with some adj) decision to end support of older versions and the discussion that ensued is now suddenly Content Creators fault but, I wish people would think a bit before they post things like Nikkia did. Do we really want to annoy and pi#@ off the very people that are making content for us to use often time completely free? I think not. Give the Creators a break. Think before you post.

 

[Darkdan]

As an aside, I always thought that creators made things for their own enjoyment and the community benefited from this, it seems I was wrong and a lot of them, well the vocal ones, did it as work and got no pleasure from it at all, [...]

I don't think so. I build maps with 2004 because it is the best way I found to share them with as many Trainzers as possible (2004, 06, 09 users) who want to play with them and I upload them to the DLS because it is the main place where all these Trainzers go first to find stuff.

But now I think I have to say "was the place"... as the DLS will become soon way more closed than a lot of third party sites. So if I still want to share my maps with all those Trainzers, I think I have to forget the DLS and move to these third party sites.

But I am not happy at all to have to do that...

 

[American_Connections]

Your Words

...If anything, they are the ones to potentially alienate by removing old content from the DLS...quote]
Well said, took the words right out of my mouth!