Happy Bonfire Night for 5th November.

[domsarto]

.............Being tortured, hung, drawn and quartered or burned at the stake in legions................QUOTE]

A legion was typical composed of 5,000 so given your use of the plural I am presuming you are claiming up to 10,000 put to death during Queen Mary 1 reign, when in actual fact the total number put to death was 285, great exaggeration in those days still leading to more exaggeration today.

Being tortured, hung, drawn and quartered or burned at the stake in legions................QUOTE]

.............Many RC's followed a path to try and overturn the majority................QUOTE]

It was the upper class of lords and landowners who tried to overturn one religion for another: jumping on the bandwagon to retain there position in life. Most people living at this time did not know one religion from another, they just followed there landowners, since almost all were tenants and serfs and uneducated and they still carried out some pagan rites.

One item you learn from Queen Mary's time was that, during King Henry VIII reign all bishops bar one changed to the protestant religion, upon Queen Elizabeth ascending the throne only one bishop changed back to the protestant religion and the remainder were tortured and executed.

During Queen Mary's reign many changes were introduced for the betterment of her subjects, all of which have been glossed over by the protestant ascendry to show her in a bad light and to give a burning star to the new religion.

 

[pfx]

Looking into my pagan crystal ball, I foresee this thread being locked soon...

 

[amigacooke]

What I remember most about Mary is that she was rather upset to have lost Calais to the English Crown.

'When I am dead and opened, you shall find 'Philip' and 'Calais' lying in my heart.'

 

[Paulsw2]

I have to say that there aren't many railway forums around where you can find a discourse on Tudor politics! 'Bloody' Mary does have a bad reputation in England where her attempt to reimpose the 'old' religion created many Protestant martyrs (though numbered in the hundreds as Dom said, not the thousands.) Elizabeth was better as her position was one of toleration of private practices ("I have no desire to make windows into mens souls") However, Rome's determination to remove her from the throne following her excommunication by Pope Pius V in 1570 followed by a series of plots with Jesuits infiltrating into the country to stir up insurrection effectively turned catholics into enemies of the state. This culminated in the Babington plot of 1586, the execution of Mary Queen of Scots and the Spanish Armadas of 1588 and 1597. By the end of the century, England was a religious police state and attendance at the mass was a crime. This created the background to the events leading to the gunpowder plot.

Thankfully, this is all now behind us, so back to the trains!

Paul

 

[mezzoprezzo]

Late display

These are last years fireworks, but I'll light them and post them here.

All made in Trainz.

I hope they work!

 

[rjhowie]

They were very cruel times not only here on the mainland but Ireland too and neither side can claim great moral superiority. At the Irish rebellion towards the end of the 18th century black flags were carried with the symbol "MWS "and I am sure that Dom will know his own history. It was a policy that all non RC's be dispensed with and could be as they were heretics hence 'Murder without sin' initials on those flags and that porgrom was seriously carried out. However we live in different times and thankful I am that the majority of folk on these slands are different even though my ancestors were so treated. That here in Gt Britain people of all backgrounds take part in bonfire night shows we have well moved on from the dark days of the past.

I just so loove steam trains but I am wise enough to understand and appreciate that there has to be progress and not stuck in the past divides and that includes big diesels, DMU's and electrics!

 

[pfx]

RJ, you paint a conveniently one-sided picture with your specific 'sound bite' from the Irish Rebellion which either shows you are unaware of, or are unwilling to admit to the hard facts. For anyone interested in the history surrounding the Irish Rebellion, and in the interest of balanced debate, the most important fact you have missed, is that the United Irishmen consisted of Catholics and Protestants who did not, as you put it, want the eradication of all "non RC's" but who wished an end to British rule in Ireland. This rule was perpetuated by a minority who used institutionalised sectarianism to discriminate against the majority (a situation mirrored more recently after the partition of Ireland and which gave rise to the civil rights movement in Northern Ireland, ultimately culminating in the troubles).

Atrocities were committed on both sides, notably the inhumane murder by United Irish, of Loyalist prisoners which was reciprocated by the British usually murdering captives after each battle along with the rape and murder of civillians for good measure. The Orange Order was also formed at this time which provided intelligence and men and which continues to this day, to peddle its sectarian views.

I'm glad you think we have moved on from those dark times. Perhaps you could pass on this enlightenment to your kin over here who burn effigies of the Pope and posters of murdered Catholics on bonfires draped with banners marked 'KAT', as they celebrate the battle of the Boyne each year. Just because it doesn't make the national news doesn't mean it's not happening.


Now, as this is getting far too political, I will bring things back to Guy Fawkes night. As a kid, I had no notion of the politics or religion behind it all. The story was Guy Fawkes was a bad bloke who tried to blow up parliament so we could have a bonfire and fireworks once a year and baked potatoes cooked in the fire. I always liked a bonfire spud. Best way ever to cook them. We used to have a small gathering when neighbours still spoke to each other, which meant a pretty good display of Catherine Wheels, Roman candles and rockets and, in the times before Health and Safety existed, we even used to have a hose on standby, should the fire get out of control.

 

[amigacooke]

Now, as this is getting far too political, I will bring things back to Guy Fawkes night. As a kid, I had no notion of the politics or religion behind it all. The story was Guy Fawkes was a bad bloke who tried to blow up parliament so we could have a bonfire and fireworks once a year and baked potatoes cooked in the fire. I always liked a bonfire spud. Best way ever to cook them. We used to have a small gathering when neighbours still spoke to each other, which meant a pretty good display of Catherine Wheels, Roman candles and rockets and, in the times before Health and Safety existed, we even used to have a hose on standby, should the fire get out of control.

Do you remember the helicopters, hand held fireworks and jumping jacks? It's a wonder we all made it to adulthood.

 

[pfx]

Do you remember the helicopters, hand held fireworks and jumping jacks? It's a wonder we all made it to adulthood.

I don't recall helicopters but hand held and jumping jacks, I do certainly. You can still get them all via the internet, though I'm not sure that they would still be legal in the UK anymore are they? All fireworks are illegal here but you would never know, the amount of them going off.

You're right though, we're all still here. I miss the days of personal responsibility when we could be trusted to stand within a couple of metres of a roaring fire and fireworks were let off at the end of the garden, while all the neighbours stood and looked on and us kids ran around with sparklers and bangers. Personally, I think H&S is a reaction to poeple getting more stupid...

Ah, the halcyon days.

 

[rjhowie]

Health and Safety is getting too ridiculous and we have even had villages having to cancel age old festivals and tradtions due to H & S and costs of "safety". Bonfires seem more spaced out these days and is it because of tv, compueters and electronic games?! As a boy there would bea time to go out in Glasgow to look for wood "furra bonny." Strangely, I didn;t see a large group round the temporay created firework counter in a big chain store although I did hear fireworks leading up to the night itself and a couple of nights after. What I did see away across the golf course in front of my house was quite attractive albeit from a distance watching the fireworks soar into the sky in the dark. Don't know whether it is beacause i live in an essentially quiet neighbourhood but I always feel inclined for traditional things to keep going. Most of my teenage friends when I was a boy just couldn't get their hands on enough bangers whereas I much preferred the others that lasted longer for the money!