Ghost Train hunter killed by real train....

[norfolksouthern37]

sorry you still lose pommie. i would have to maintain that there is no fault or blame on the railroad. people should not be trapped on bridges or in tunnels. just because there is no warning to not be stupid does not mean that someone else should be responsible. this is the problem with the world today. everyone else is responsible for mistakes except the person making them.

and crossing a freeway is illegal at least here- and is taking your life in your own hands (except for some who refuse responsibility) - this is exactly why i gave the example and you fell right in with it. its NEVER ok to do so, and if you do its YOUR OWN responsibility. thank you for helping me illustrate.

case closed.

 

[pommie]

What does that have to do with anything I said. In your mind the train should have stopped and the engineer got out and checked the bridge before they crossed. This is why everything has to be written down or on large signs. What used to be common knowledge/sense now has to be spelled out, in laws.
hert:wave:

In answer to your question above,

"Judging from the article the train had no reason to use its horn, why should it, you don't expect people to be on a train trestle"

I beg to differ, there has just been a man killed on a trestle, and he is not the first to be killed on a bridge or in a tunnel, and not just trespassers, rail workers have been killed too.

Thats what it has to do with it...

If you had read my posts properly you would know that I do know about how hard it is to stop a train, I'll let you into a little secret, light engines take longer to stop than a train

Cheers David

 

[pommie]

sorry you still lose pommie. i would have to maintain that there is no fault or blame on the railroad. people should not be trapped on bridges or in tunnels. just because there is no warning to not be stupid does not mean that someone else should be responsible. this is the problem with the world today. everyone else is responsible for mistakes except the person making them.

and crossing a freeway is illegal at least here- and is taking your life in your own hands (except for some who refuse responsibility) - this is exactly why i gave the example and you fell right in with it. its NEVER ok to do so, and if you do its YOUR OWN responsibility. thank you for helping me illustrate.

case closed.

I must learn not to walk away from the computer while typing a reply :hehe:

So you regard this as a discussion that you must win, ah well, so be it.
So there are no workers that go into tunnels or across bridges, at all, ever???
And I will repeat it one more time, if the horn had been blown it might, repeat, might of avoided this incident, therefore the horn not being sounded is a contributing factor in the incident, and the railroad do not have a rule about sounding the horn, so they, in a small way, contributed to the incedent, I wonder if it was not the NS if you would be so vocal in its defence?

As to the freeway bit, how childish can you get to pick on one single word and say that proves your point, just substitute highway/road/street etc, and thank you for proving that you need to nitpick to get you view across.

Cheers David

 

[hert]

In answer to your question above,
Quote:
"Judging from the article the train had no reason to use its horn, why should it, you don't expect people to be on a train trestle"/quote]

Thats what it has to do with it...

If you had read my posts properly you would know that I do know about how hard it is to stop a train, I'll let you into a little secret, light engines take longer to stop than a train

Cheers David

You really dont understand what I posted. The engineer had no reason to blow his horn. Just because some people have died on a trestle doesnt make every bridge, will have people on it which you assume apparently.

hert

 

[pommie]

You really dont understand what I posted. The engineer had no reason to blow his horn. Just because some people have died on a trestle doesnt make every bridge, will have people on it which you assume apparently.

hert

The horn must be used at every unprotected crossing that a train crosses, why, using your reasoning it only needs blowing when there are cars using it.

Please, please, please read what I post, I have never said the driver was at fault, in anyway.

And I assume nothing, but I would rather push a button/pull a cord a thousand times for nothing than to not blow it and end someones life, even a trespasser's, or do you think the effort of blowing the horn is worth more than someones life.

Cheers David

 

[hert]

The horn must be used at every unprotected crossing that a train crosses, why, using your reasoning it only needs blowing when there are cars using it.

Please, please, please read what I post, I have never said the driver was at fault, in anyway.

And I assume nothing, but I would rather push a button/pull a cord a thousand times for nothing than to not blow it and end someones life, even a trespasser's, or do you think the effort of blowing the horn is worth more than someones life.

Cheers David

No, the horn should be sounded to warn people or cars off the tracks. Things like, Railroad Crossings either road or pedestrian, stations, and street running would be places where you should and would expect people to be near or around the tracks not a trestle in the middle of the forest. You stated that "NS is partially to blame, most places require the horn to be sounded when approaching a bridge, tunnel or any other place that restricts a persons ability to get out of the way," And has been pointed out NS nor the engineer should be find at fault or be blamed. Its 100% the victims fault yes a tragedy but 100% his fault.

hert

 

[pommie]

So you are saying that the incident would of still happened if the horn had been sounded, brave statement but it begs the question, how do you know 100% that he would still be killed ??????

And I am talking morally here, legally there is no rulings by the statements made earlier.

No, the horn should be sounded to warn people or cars off the tracks. Things like, Railroad Crossings either road or pedestrian, stations, and street running would be places where you should and would expect people to be near or around the tracks not a trestle in the middle of the forest.

So a crossing in the middle of the desert is expected to have a lot of pedestrian traffic.

Cheers David

 

[pommie]

Found the figures for death/injuries of railroad trespassers (USA),
http://safetydata.fra.dot.gov/officeofsafety/publicsite/Query/castally4.aspx

773 (428 deaths, 345 injuries) for the year 2009, thats two every weekday and three on every, lets say Friday (no reason for Friday, it just makes the figures add up, 365x2=730 plus 53 extras), this does not include any rail/road crossing figures.

Take into account how many near misses would be involved to get to that figure and it looks like trespassing on railroad lines is a bit of a hobby over there
Only joking with that last remark but it does go to show that blowing the horn at danger spots might not be a bad idea.

Cheers David

 

[nikos1]

Wow, some astounding stupidity in this thread, almost rivals that of the now rail-kill idiots (this is more in reference to Perry's comments, which represent everything wrong with this country now, than pommies)
The dispatcher at NS, which have to manage hundreds of miles of tracks and dozens of trains at the same time should have the foresight to not run a train because some idiots are standing on a ACTIVE railroad bridge searching for invisible choo choo's? Its their track, they can run whatever they want, whenever the want. Its a freight railroad, the public should have no expectations of trains running on any set schedules, obviously those units were needed at another terminal, too bad they got delayed.
Is the engineer really supposed to be expected to sound the horn at every bridge at 2 AM for the off chance there are some brain deficient people standing on it? If they were at a crossing and the engineer didnt sound that would be another matter, but they were on railroad property, within the guage, where nothing other than a train or authorized railroad employee should be. There is no regulation that a train must blow the horn unless there is a whistle post or a special rule indicating so, im sure the engineer blew the horn as soon as he saw the people, and shot the brakes but at that point even with a light engine move it is too late.

 

[pommie]

Even though the news report states that the horn was not sounded, I am sure that the driver did blow it as soon as he saw them, it was just to late, the bridge is just after a tree lined bend so he was very close when he saw them.
Even if he was pouring himself a coffee and had his eyes off the track for a few seconds (and I am not in any way suggesting he did) just at the wrong time, there is no blame on him, no crossings or signals to be looking out for so safe to take the eyes off the track to pour a coffee, again I am not suggesting that he did.
As I have stated a couple of times there is no way any employee can be blamed for this incident, I do however question the railroads in general for not having a horn policy for when trains are entering areas where people cannot get out of the way, and the death/injury figures I posted earlier support this.
For an example of the need to be heard, switching engines have a bell going whenever they move, why, surely all the employees know to keep away from moving rolling stock, its because they are human and get sidetracked so they need the bell to alert them to the move and even then there are quite a few get killed/injured, you can't call all of them stupid.

Cheers David

Edit: Just came across a recent report that states,
"The engineer of the train, which was travelling at its customary 35 to 40 mph, hit the horn and "stopped as fast as he could," Iredell County Sheriff's Office Captain Darren Campbell said.
So the driver did blow the horn as soon as he saw them.

 

[perry_weekley]

Wow, some astounding stupidity in this thread, almost rivals that of the now rail-kill idiots (this is more in reference to Perry's comments, which represent everything wrong with this country now, than pommies)
The dispatcher at NS, which have to manage hundreds of miles of tracks and dozens of trains at the same time should have the foresight to not run a train because some idiots are standing on a ACTIVE railroad bridge searching for invisible choo choo's? Its their track, they can run whatever they want, whenever the want. Its a freight railroad, the public should have no expectations of trains running on any set schedules, obviously those units were needed at another terminal, too bad they got delayed.
Is the engineer really supposed to be expected to sound the horn at every bridge at 2 AM for the off chance there are some brain deficient people standing on it? If they were at a crossing and the engineer didnt sound that would be another matter, but they were on railroad property, within the guage, where nothing other than a train or authorized railroad employee should be. There is no regulation that a train must blow the horn unless there is a whistle post or a special rule indicating so, im sure the engineer blew the horn as soon as he saw the people, and shot the brakes but at that point even with a light engine move it is too late.

I feel bad for you. Feeling that I am the issue when clearing it is the incoming generation you need to worry about, don't even know how to push the start button on a microwave and sue the company for not explicitly telling them how.

I'm not saying that he should be taken to court and prosecuted. What I am simply saying is that indirectly the dispatcher set the ball into motion. If you want to go back even father we can start looking at the person who ordered those locomotives, and why they were ordered. Catch my drift?

It's like watching the game mousetrap. You have no idea the end result but you set the ball in motion and boom there's the domino effect. So according to the domino effect the dispatch, or the terminal that needed those locomotives, is to blame. Because at random they pushed the first domino putting into act a set of random events which sadly at the end was a mans death, the media reporting it, a man posting about it here, and this thread which is now 4 pages long.

I also agree with Prommie on the whistle statement. When driving a train you should always assume the worst. Something that large means you gotta be on your toes. I'd rather blow the horn at every crossing, every bridge,and every tunnel to save someone who wasn't supposed to be there, or an animal that was there, then end up ending a life.

On a side note, it's curious how much a discussion this has stirred up compared to the topic about the mini bus getting hit. Maybe the reason is that it is morally wrong to call someone an idiot, stupid, moronic, retarded, or even mentally impaired just because of their beliefs. Yes, he did something not smart but when you step back he did save his girlfriends life and sacrificed himself in the end. This man is a hero, not someone to have his named dragged through the mud on the internet.

 

[cascaderailroad]

Moreover, I just can not believe that there is an organization with meetings of babeling idjiots with T shirts and hats labeled: CAPS (Charlotte Area Paranormal Society) ? lol

There is someone that has posted that he will pay $ 1,000,000 to anyone that can give conclusive indisputable proof that ghosts, aliens, and or UFO's exist. And he will never find a payee to collect his challenging wager...because there are none ... spooks and extraterrestials (unless they are already here) ... BoOO !

EDIT: My speelchucker iz buzted

 

[pommie]

Yet you can believe that there are "meetings of babbeling idjiots with T shirts and hats labeled: TRAINZ
They probably think that you are a babbeling idjiot for playing at driving trains on a computer, at least they get out and about.

I am usually not one to point out spelling mistakes but "babbeling idjiots" please use a spell checker, firefox has one built in

Cheers David

 

[norfolksouthern37]

It still just blows my mind that you think there is fault for not blowing the horn approaching the bridge. There are not supposed to be people there. there are no other excuses. Work gangs would be given authority there. You argument is just not valid. Its ok that you don't know how everything works you know. And to say that I am defending the re bc its NS... that's just ridiculous to begin with. I support any railroad on this. I'm sick of seeing them get blamed and sued bc someone was trespassing on their property.

 

[sparky15]

Alright.

These people were out in the middle of nowhere at 2AM LISTENING for a ghost train. I live out in the sticks and at night I can hear trains several miles away rumbling along. And I'm not listening for them.

Now, the planet has how many millions of acres of land? A railroad takes up how many feet of that for it's right of way? 6 feet to either side and you live. It's not like their paths are unpredictable. Of everywhere in the world to be, some feel that need to be in that 4'8" BETWEEN the rails. (Think that's what it is) That train can only travel in one path and those big steel things laid next to each other spells that path out pretty well. They also felt a need to occupy that little space even though they had to go out of their way to climb out on a bridge to get to it.

I don't wish anyone to get hurt but this has "Hey all, watch this" written all over it.

Dave....

 

[NickyVeee]

So the engineer did blow his horn as soon as he saw an obstruction on the tracks...well then what more do you need?

As long as activated the braking system and did everything he could to be able to prevent death/injury when he saw the obstruction, then he did absolutely nothing wrong. Now if he didn't blow his horn, and he just kept on going straight through the bridge without braking, that'd definitely leave some questions to be answered. Stupidity was the factor here, and fault lies on the person who was killed. I'm not saying that stupid people should be killed at all, but those who throw caution into the wind certainly risk their own lives.

Here's some fun facts for you... So they were on a 100 meter bridge which translates to ~330 feet. The average human can run between 6-10 mph, so let's assume 6 mph because of the difficulty to be able to run successfully on a trestle, so that puts us at just shy of 9 feet per second. So assuming he was at the halfway point of the trestle (165 ft to the end), it would've taken over 18 seconds to bail out of that bridge from either end. Now with the train traveling between 44-59 feet per second, it would take around 3 seconds from either end of the trestle to the middle point. In order to react and get off the bridge safely from the middle point, he'd need to recognize there was an oncoming train that was ~900 feet away (or about 1/8 of a mile). So depending on reaction time, this death could have been prevented had the people on the bridge been more aware of their surroundings. However there are more factors that contribute into reaction time for both the victim and the engineer and/or conductor.

BTW for the argument about train workers and such is a moot point. There are railside flags that are posted when there is track work being done well in advance of the construction site, and the dispatcher should be notifying the train operator about areas where track construction is being done. So the engineer should be able to recognize where work is being done, and be able to adjust speed and notification procedures accordingly.

 

[22alpha]

Moreover, I just can not believe that there is an organization with meetings of babeling idjiots with T shirts and hats labeled: CAPS (Charlotte Area Paranormal Society) ? lol

There is someone that has posted that he will pay $ 1,000,000 to anyone that can give conclusive indisputable proof that ghosts, aliens, and or UFO's exist. And he will never find a payee to collect his challenging wager...because there are none ... spooks and extraterrestials (unless they are already here) ... BoOO !

EDIT: My speelchucker iz buzted

LOL, you do realize we are railfans correct? I don't even try and explain it anymore to people, they just look confused anyway. We certainly have no room to talk about strange hobbies.....

MIke

P.S. I am also guilty of owning a few jointedrail.com tshirts....

 

[norfolksouthern37]

p.s.s you can get your own jointedrail.com shirt too...

join the crazies!

 

[nikos1]

I feel bad for you. Feeling that I am the issue when clearing it is the incoming generation you need to worry about, don't even know how to push the start button on a microwave and sue the company for not explicitly telling them how.

I'm not saying that he should be taken to court and prosecuted. What I am simply saying is that indirectly the dispatcher set the ball into motion. If you want to go back even father we can start looking at the person who ordered those locomotives, and why they were ordered. Catch my drift?

It's like watching the game mousetrap. You have no idea the end result but you set the ball in motion and boom there's the domino effect. So according to the domino effect the dispatch, or the terminal that needed those locomotives, is to blame. Because at random they pushed the first domino putting into act a set of random events which sadly at the end was a mans death, the media reporting it, a man posting about it here, and this thread which is now 4 pages long.

I also agree with Prommie on the whistle statement. When driving a train you should always assume the worst. Something that large means you gotta be on your toes. I'd rather blow the horn at every crossing, every bridge,and every tunnel to save someone who wasn't supposed to be there, or an animal that was there, then end up ending a life.

On a side note, it's curious how much a discussion this has stirred up compared to the topic about the mini bus getting hit. Maybe the reason is that it is morally wrong to call someone an idiot, stupid, moronic, retarded, or even mentally impaired just because of their beliefs. Yes, he did something not smart but when you step back he did save his girlfriends life and sacrificed himself in the end. This man is a hero, not someone to have his named dragged through the mud on the internet.

You seem to be part of that generation because from this thread a guy who's standing on the tracks at 2 AM is "in the right place at the wrong time" then pointing the blame at the engineer for not sounding the horn.
None of that sequence of events crap even matters, the dispatcher dispatched a train to a destination, which the crew proceeded to take to that destination, the only part of the sequence of events that matters or that would have changed anything was the part about the idiot (yes he 100% deserves to be called that....) deciding it was a good idea to stand on a active railroad bridge at 2 AM in the morning......
Are you an engineer or do you even know any? Do you know how demanding of a job it is without having to watch for idiots at every bridge, they had a job to do and the ghosthunters were in the way. I have a friend who is an engineer for CSX, he told me about how he recently hit and killed a drunk guy passed out on the tracks, he said that while the guy was still human, he couldnt feel sorry cause the guy was on the tracks and the only thing that had the right to occupy that space at that time was his train. Sounds harsh, but if your an engineer you wont last long if you dont find moral justification, because you will hit someone sooner or later.

BTW: How many GEVO's do we have to buy before we get a jointedfail shirt? I want one with a CSX GEVO and a I Love Dillon sticker on it.

 

[perry_weekley]

You seem to be part of that generation because from this thread a guy who's standing on the tracks at 2 AM is "in the right place at the wrong time" then pointing the blame at the engineer for not sounding the horn.
None of that sequence of events crap even matters, the dispatcher dispatched a train to a destination, which the crew proceeded to take to that destination, the only part of the sequence of events that matters or that would have changed anything was the part about the idiot (yes he 100% deserves to be called that....) deciding it was a good idea to stand on a active railroad bridge at 2 AM in the morning......
Are you an engineer or do you even know any? Do you know how demanding of a job it is without having to watch for idiots at every bridge, they had a job to do and the ghosthunters were in the way. I have a friend who is an engineer for CSX, he told me about how he recently hit and killed a drunk guy passed out on the tracks, he said that while the guy was still human, he couldnt feel sorry cause the guy was on the tracks and the only thing that had the right to occupy that space at that time was his train. Sounds harsh, but if your an engineer you wont last long if you dont find moral justification, because you will hit someone sooner or later.

Curious argument, and I has been stated the whistle was blown after seeing, The odd part is that there is a crossing not more than a mile away. Was the whistle blown there too?

I've only met engineers in passing and I've learned that is not my calling in life. I can't be calloused like that. Being that calloused and uncaring is what leads to mentally instability. I think that engineers learn to cope in different ways. Some that have it happen often just grow numb to death. Those that have it happen once in a while, trust me there are those few out there, it will hit them hard.

Human psychology says that repetition of a bad act, can lead to a bad act. How many times do these engineers have to hit a person till they just stop caring and no longer applying the breaks? Sure protocol says you should but why should I listen to protocol when it happens all the time?

I'm the type of person who always expects the worst and if I live through the day I feel lucky. I stick to the speed limits and stop for every stop sign for that reason. I'm not going to add to the risk of killing myself. Would I walk on train bridge that was abandoned, trees growing through the track? Yes.
Would I walk on a bridge that I knew was fully operational and the only clearing on the sides of the bridge is a maybe 4 inch slope on the far edges? Only if there was an emergency or I had permission.

So far we have all assumed they were trespassing. I'm curious now if they were or if they were allowed there. In the end it is most likely true there were trespassing but when in a case like this you got to question everything.

This is my last reply for this thread because the discussion is over. Things have died down, everyone has made their points. Why keep bumping a topic when it is so obviously over? :wave: