Getting up long steep grades (Freight Delivery / Cornish...)

[Bill69]

I have uploaded a new e-spec for the Ivat 2-6-0 but being holiday time I don't know when it will be available.
The kuid number is kuid2:243294:101393:2 I am using it in the LMS Ivat and the BR version.
It has a build version of 3.7 so should be fine in TS12 and above

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[KotangaGirl]

It's all about using the right engine for the job. I've deleted all the Ivatts from the session and replaced them with proper engines. The lack of instructions about what you are supposed to do at Camborne was a bit disappointing though.

 

[Bill69]

I have some more thoughts on this session...

I replaced the orginal locomotive with a 4200 tank locomotive.
The replacement and saving a new scenario was a quite easy thing to do!
The 4200 performed very well and I arrived in Camborne after about 40 min.

But
1) The AI-trains (Paul and friends) never started driving. As I passed them, they were just standing still. Did I fail to update or activate anything after replacing my locomotive?
2) I arrived in Camborne, stopping exactly at the stop sign, but the session never ends. It is like there is something else I need to do (like getting my train off the main line), but I get no new instructions. Again, did I fail to update or activate anything when I replaced my locomotive?
3) The orginal locomotive is a 2MT. How is that supposed to pull 23 wagons up 2%+ grades? I think it makes complete sense that it got stuck, and I am surpised it was assigned such a heavy task in the first place.

The AI trains probably have an instruction to start when a particular loco hits the trigger, therefore changing the loco causes them to not get the right command from the trigger.

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[2995Valliant]

@ KotangaGirl - that's more like it! You might want to delete all the BR vans out the trains next though - there's a nice GW Mink A on the DLS by Jonny211. You'll need to change the wagon enginespec to one of Stovepipes though.

@ Bill69 - is your spec based on the Billegulla spreadsheet?

 

[Bill69]

My e-specs use my own spreadsheet for initial calculations, the results are usually tweeked a little bit after testing.

In the Ivat the boiler pressure sits at about 180-185psi. pulling 200 tons up a 1 mile long 2% incline.

Cheers,
Bill69

P.S. I also corrected the weight of the loco, can't remember what it was originally but I have set the weight at 47855kg.

 

[KotangaGirl]

Yes the presence of all the BR rolling stock and 'foreign' non-GWR engines is disappointing.
A large Prairie is a good all round workhouse and was used on both goods trains and passenger trains on secondary lines. On the gradients it was working at it, but more than capable. Not knowing a thing about how to set up an operating session I'm reluctant to criticise, but I really don't understand why the sessions turned the Cornish Mainline into some kind of UK generic not particularly anything route when there are plenty of 1930's period correct assets available to make a proper job of it.

 

[Bill69]

@2995Valliant.

This is what I look for when doing an e-spec.

[TABLE="class: infobox, width: 22"]
[TR]
[TH="colspan: 2, align: center"]LMS Ivatt Class 2 2-6-0[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"]46521 Ivatt class at Loughborough railway station, 28 January 2012. Photo by Tony Hisgett.
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"][TABLE="class: infobox collapsible mw-collapsible mw-made-collapsible, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #EEB47F, colspan: 2, align: center"]hideType and origin[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Power type[/TH]
[TD]Steam[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Designer[/TH]
[TD]H. G. Ivatt[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Builder[/TH]
[TD]

• LMS & BR Crewe works
• BR Darlington Works
• BR Swindon Works

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Build date[/TH]
[TD]1946–1953[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Total produced[/TH]
[TD]128[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"][TABLE="class: infobox collapsible mw-collapsible mw-made-collapsible, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #EEB47F, colspan: 2, align: center"]hideSpecifications[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Configuration:
[/TH]
[TD]​[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH] • Whyte[/TH]
[TD]2-6-0[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH] • UIC[/TH]
[TD]1′C h2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Gauge[/TH]
[TD]4 ft 8 [SUP]1[/SUP]⁄[SUB]2[/SUB] in (1,435 mm) standard gauge[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Leading dia.[/TH]
[TD]3 ft 0 in (0.914 m)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Driver dia.[/TH]
[TD]5 ft 0 in (1.524 m)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Length[/TH]
[TD]53 ft 1 [SUP]3[/SUP]⁄[SUB]4[/SUB] in (16.20 m)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Loco weight[/TH]
[TD]47.10 long tons (47.9 t; 52.8 short tons) (6400–64)
48.45 long tons (49.2 t) (remainder)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Tender weight[/TH]
[TD]37.15 long tons (37.7 t; 41.6 short tons)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Fuel type[/TH]
[TD]Coal[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Fuel capacity[/TH]
[TD]4 long tons (4.1 t; 4.5 short tons)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Water cap[/TH]
[TD]3,000 imp gal (14,000 l; 3,600 US gal)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Firebox:
• Firegrate area[/TH]
[TD]17 [SUP]1[/SUP]⁄[SUB]2[/SUB] sq ft (1.63 m[SUP]2[/SUP])[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Boiler[/TH]
[TD]LMS type 7[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Boiler pressure[/TH]
[TD]200 lbf/in[SUP]2[/SUP] (1.38 MPa)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Heating surface:
• Tubes[/TH]
[TD]924 sq ft (85.8 m[SUP]2[/SUP])[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH] • Firebox[/TH]
[TD]101 sq ft (9.4 m[SUP]2[/SUP])[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Superheater:
[/TH]
[TD]​[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH] • Heating area[/TH]
[TD]134 sq ft (12.4 m[SUP]2[/SUP]) or
124 sq ft (11.5 m[SUP]2[/SUP])[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Cylinders[/TH]
[TD]Two, outside[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Cylinder size[/TH]
[TD]16 in × 24 in (406 mm × 610 mm)[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Valve gear[/TH]
[TD]Walschaerts[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"][TABLE="class: infobox collapsible mw-collapsible mw-made-collapsible, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #EEB47F, colspan: 2, align: center"]hidePerformance figures[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Tractive effort[/TH]
[TD]17,410 lbf (77.44 kN)[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="colspan: 2, align: center"][TABLE="class: infobox collapsible mw-collapsible mw-made-collapsible, width: 100%"]
[TR]
[TH="bgcolor: #EEB47F, colspan: 2, align: center"]hideCareer[/TH]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Operators[/TH]
[TD]

• London, Midland and Scottish Railway
• British Railways

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Power class[/TH]
[TD]

• LMS: 2F
• BR: 2MT

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Numbers[/TH]
[TD]

• LMS:6400–6419
• BR: 46400–46527

[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Nicknames[/TH]
[TD]Mickey Mouse[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Axle load class[/TH]
[TD]BR: Route Availability 2[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Withdrawn[/TH]
[TD]1961–1967[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TH]Disposition[/TH]
[TD]7 preserved, remainder scrapped

Cheers,
Bill69[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

 

[Heinrich505]

Thanks for the suggestion, edh6. I just ran the hills with the GWR 2251. Impressive engine. Handled the hills very nicely. I did some fancy dancing with the throttle and cutoff on the last long hill before Camborgne, but chugged my way up it and towards the top I actually started to coax acceleration out of the engine.

I'm guessing I was ahead of schedule as the consists I passed this time were sitting still, likely waiting for a trigger.

The session is much more fun when you have tools for the job that get the job done.

 

[Heinrich505]

Bill69,
Will the new e-spec you've submitted for the Ivatt obsolete the current version in this session or will we have to delete the one in the current session and add the updated version in an edited session?

I'm still game for the challenge. I'd like to get that Ivatt through the session successfully.

Thanks for your adjustments on the Ivatt. It is appreciated.

Heinrich505

 

[clam1952]

Have to replace it in the config as it's by a different Creator, you can't obsolete other peoples assets.

As with previous versions of Trainz you might have to delete the Loco and then add it to the session again for the new espec to take affect.

 

[Bill69]

Bill69,
Will the new e-spec you've submitted for the Ivatt obsolete the current version in this session or will we have to delete the one in the current session and add the updated version in an edited session?

I'm still game for the challenge. I'd like to get that Ivatt through the session successfully.

Thanks for your adjustments on the Ivatt. It is appreciated.

Heinrich505

Clam's reply above is correct. you will have to edit the config.txt file for the loco and replace the original e-spec kuid with the new e-spec kuid, then submit the edits. When that is done start Trainz and edit the session, remove the existing Ivatt loco and replace it with the edited one.

Cheers,
Bill69

edit: The new e-spec is now in the "your content" area, report says "available soon currently unlisted"

Bill69

 

[Azervich]

I don't have TRS19 so I'm not sure what the grades and tonnages are, however I've been reading this thread and when I looked at the data Bill posted it shows the loco is 17,000lbf at 80 or 85% boiler pressure (160-170 PSI) I can only assume the correct tonnages are 260-280 tonnes on 1in50, 200-210 tonnes on a 1in40 and 120-140 tonnes on a 1in30.

In Australia we have a few locomotives that have 17,000lbf and the tonnages above is what those are rated, so I'd say a British locomotive should handle the same tonnages, however they vary based on it's Adhesion or weight on the driving wheels, if the loco is over those tonnages then that's why you are stalling, if it's under those tonnages the it's a defective physic, the locomotive being over weight as said in other posts should actually help with Adhesion and pull more.

Cheers.

 

[Heinrich505]

Clam and Bill69,
Thanks for the info. I'll watch for the new e-spec.

Heinrich505

 

[2995Valliant]

I don't have TRS19 so I'm not sure what the grades and tonnages are, however I've been reading this thread and when I looked at the data Bill posted it shows the loco is 17,000lbf at 80 or 85% boiler pressure (160-170 PSI) I can only assume the correct tonnages are 260-280 tonnes on 1in50, 200-210 tonnes on a 1in40 and 120-140 tonnes on a 1in30.

In Australia we have a few locomotives that have 17,000lbf and the tonnages above is what those are rated, so I'd say a British locomotive should handle the same tonnages, however they vary based on it's Adhesion or weight on the driving wheels, if the loco is over those tonnages then that's why you are stalling, if it's under those tonnages the it's a defective physic, the locomotive being over weight as said in other posts should actually help with Adhesion and pull more.

Cheers.

From a BR Western region working timetable appendix of 1960, the maximum permitted load for a 4500 class prairie (TE 21250lb, power class 4, so a significantly larger and more powerful loco than the Ivatt 2) on a 1 in 50 is only 120tons - so significantly less than Australian loadings - and only 90 tons on a 1 in 40.

I suspect the difference is on loading gauge and therefore boiler size/ output. Another source quotes the maximum load from Boscarne Junction to Bodmin (which has a ruling gradient of 1 in 40) as 200 tons - but it's only a short (3 mile) climb so you can mortgage the boiler.

 

[clam1952]

From a BR Western region working timetable appendix of 1960, the maximum permitted load for a 4500 class prairie (TE 21250lb, power class 4, so a significantly larger and more powerful loco than the Ivatt 2) on a 1 in 50 is only 120tons - so significantly less than Australian loadings - and only 90 tons on a 1 in 40.

I suspect the difference is on loading gauge and therefore boiler size/ output. Another source quotes the maximum load from Boscarne Junction to Bodmin (which has a ruling gradient of 1 in 40) as 200 tons - but it's only a short (3 mile) climb so you can mortgage the boiler.

Hmm weight in tow on that session is 213 tons + over weight loco + over weight tender + the original bad espec explains a lot!

 

[2995Valliant]

I've just uploaded a spec for the Ivatt Class 2 tender engines: <kuid2:248163:1541:14> Ivatt 2MT enginespec TS12 SP1

I'm not sure when it will be available, but I'm away for a few days now. Any feedback, good or bad, welcome.

For anyone willing/able to alter the loco and tender config files, set the loco mass to 45316, and the tender mass to 20043. (Trainz adds the mass of the water/coal in both parts as part of the physics calculations).

 

[Bill69]

I actually found the tender is not overweight. In the original that I have the tender mass is 37700 Kg.
According to the specs posted above the tender weight is 37.15 tons converting this to Kg gives 37746Kg.

Cheers,
Bill69.

 

[2995Valliant]

I actually found the tender is not overweight. In the original that I have the tender mass is 37700 Kg.
According to the specs posted above the tender weight is 37.15 tons converting this to Kg gives 37746Kg.

Cheers,
Bill69.

The weight of the coal and water carried by the tender is calculated separately by Trainz (just like any goods vehicle) and added to the tare weight of the tender according to how much water/coal is on board at the time - ie the tender gets lighter as the journey goes on. If it's a tank engine the net weight of whatever water is in the tanks and coal in the bunker is added to the mass specified in the config.

The same applies for the volume of water in the boiler which is why my loco mass figure has come out a bit lighter than yours.

Set up a light engine consist, go into driver, right click/properties on the loco and look at the weight in tow and you'll see what I mean.


Best regards,
Anthony

 

[Bill69]

I've just uploaded a spec for the Ivatt Class 2 tender engines: <kuid2:248163:1541:14> Ivatt 2MT enginespec TS12 SP1

I'm not sure when it will be available, but I'm away for a few days now. Any feedback, good or bad, welcome.

For anyone willing/able to alter the loco and tender config files, set the loco mass to 45316, and the tender mass to 20043. (Trainz adds the mass of the water/coal in both parts as part of the physics calculations).

So on these figures the loco with a dry boiler weighs 44.6 tons and the tender is under 20 tons? Conversion gives 19.73tons, I would estimate the bogeys and frames at about 5 to 5.5 tons so that makes a very light tender.

Bill69

 

[AndrewH]

So on these figures the loco with a dry boiler weighs 44.6 tons and the tender is under 20 tons? Conversion gives 19.73tons, I would estimate the bogeys and frames at about 5 to 5.5 tons so that makes a very light tender.

Bill69

Apart from the frame and bogeys there is really only the buffers, drawgear and water pickup equipment plus the steel plating for the welded or riveted water tank/coal space.I can't see that lot weighing over 20 tons for a small 3 axle tender.