From Railworks to TRS19

[SAR704]

For the last few months, I have been trying to make sense of TransDEM, and the TRS19 surveyor.

Whilst I have managed to get some DEM into the game, with a semi-functional UTM overlay, I am clueless in regards to track laying. I notice that the splines hug the terrain, and track laying seems less tedious than in Railworks/TS. The loft also looks to not be limited to 500 metres, like in the aforementioned.

These are the main issues I've endured so far:

- Keeping easements out of the curves I'm placing. The current alignment that interests me, as well as many other corridors in the area I'm in lack any easement/transitions. I also have no idea how to fine tune/optimise the curve radius down to 0.1 of a value. I am fussy about accuracy with track, and hate being even 0.25 of a metre off target.

- Adding track onto an existing straight, without causing it to go haywire in regards to the direction. I notice that when one builds onto it, the previous straight transforms into a massive curve.

- I am having difficulties with the track gradients. Are there any guides which outline the process properly? I'd also like to know if it can be adjusted to 1 in xx, instead of the foreign percentage formula, which is not used over here.

I haven't used Trainz to build routes before from memory, and hence the questions. The editor looks like it is capable of enabling one to build a reasonable layout. But admittedly, I tend to attempt ones which are in excess of 150 kms or more. For now, I'm attempting to depict a 16 km section, before adding more to it. The right mouse button navigation is also vastly different to using the arrow keys to navigate.

 

[JCitron]

I recommend you start with a very small simple layout first before delving into a larger project, I as say this from experience.

Laying track is relatively simple, but it does require experience and tweaking.

When you add in track, while it's not a requirement, I highly recommend dragging track in the direction of travel when laying double track. This ensures that the signals land on the proper side and the track bends well in parallel to the other track at curves.

For switches, when you add in the reversed line, the branch, you can straighten the main route by clicking on the straighten track tool then clicking on the main line. This will straighten out your track and create a correct junction. You can use this tool to straighten track anywhere you need to.

You have the ability to apply superelevation and track-condition, one segment at a time as well as adjust the track height and do other things in the advanced pulldown in Surveyor.

To adjust the super-elevation, you choose the lowest "?" in the pulldown, located at the very bottom right on the interface. I don't remember the parameters exactly but you enter them in there.

When track is laid initially, including through TransDem (Kudos for learning to use that awesome program), it sits on the surface and follows the terrain. To fix the height, click on the height-adjust tool located on the advanced pull-down menu - the tool is located in the upper left-corner on the pulldown. You then click on a track spline. When the track-height is fixed to a specified height, the spline-point will turn from white to yellow.

There is also in-game help. Click on Help, the "?", at the top of the screen. There are options to choose from.... Click on the arrow-circle then click on the item on the interface you want to learn more from. You may want to look at this page here in the Wiki with lots of how-to tutorials on using the various tools. It's a lot easier sometimes than trying to explain and upload pictures.

HowTo - TrainzOnline

online.ts2009.com

 

[SAR704]

Thanks for the detailed response. But the issue is that the line in question had no superelevation, or easements whatsoever. I do understand your point about trying with a smaller route first. I having trouble controlling the radius as well. It is vastly different to RW.

Essentially the line went from dead straight to a curve of roughly 142 metre radius in an instant (just under 7 chains, not joking, and on a mainline). So I need to be able to bypass the easements, and place the curve at a radius I prefer. Hopefully I'll figure it out sooner than later, if an option does exist.

 

[JCitron]

Thanks for the detailed response. But the issue is that the line in question had no superelevation, or easements whatsoever. I do understand your point about trying with a smaller route first. I having trouble controlling the radius as well. It is vastly different to RW.

Essentially the line went from dead straight to a curve of roughly 142 metre radius in an instant (just under 7 chains, not joking, and on a mainline). So I need to be able to bypass the easements, and place the curve at a radius I prefer. Hopefully I'll figure it out sooner than later, if an option does exist.

I understand what you are trying to accomplish. The early railroads ran so slow that they didn't need to ease the curves at all. We had similar lines here in the US in my area that ended up being rebuilt over the years for that reason.

What helps is to place a spline point at the beginning of the curve, at the apex and at the end. This keeps the curve shaped properly and in place. You can prevent the easement from occurring by placing an extra spline point on the straight just before the curve in addition to the one at the start of the curve and then straightening the straight portion of the track where the track is supposed to be straightend. Your best bet is to think in terms of a model railroad and you are placing your flex-track down.

When I use TransDEM for route creation, I lay my track manually in Trainz and adjust my curves to fit the map using a top view so that I can see the map and plot the track along the line drawn on the map and I apply any addition spline points and move them into place as needed. When I do this, the tracks follow the map accurately.

One of the issues you may be having with TransDEM's track laying, is TransDEM places way too many spline points. Under the advanced tools pulldown is a tool to remove extra spline points. Remove those you think you don't need and move the track as needed using the arrow. If you made a mistake, you can easily undo anything by pressing CTRL+Z.

Laying track and doing many other things in Trainz takes practice. What you want to accomplish is very do-able. I highly recommend setting up a scratch route. Even us experienced users have one or two of those hanging around that we use for various things such as checking out assets, practicing with textures, especially the new PBR textures, or testing things and practicing new skills.

I hope this helps. You'll figure it out, I'm sure.

 

[SAR704]

What helps is to place a spline point at the beginning of the curve, at the apex and at the end. This keeps the curve shaped properly and in place. You can prevent the easement from occurring by placing an extra spline point on the straight just before the curve in addition to the one at the start of the curve and then straightening the straight portion of the track where the track is supposed to be straightend. Your best bet is to think in terms of a model railroad and you are placing your flex-track down.

When I use TransDEM for route creation, I lay my track manually in Trainz and adjust my curves to fit the map using a top view so that I can see the map and plot the track along the line drawn on the map and I apply any addition spline points and move them into place as needed. When I do this, the tracks follow the map accurately.

One of the issues you may be having with TransDEM's track laying, is TransDEM places way too many spline points. Under the advanced tools pulldown is a tool to remove extra spline points. Remove those you think you don't need and move the track as needed using the arrow. If you made a mistake, you can easily undo anything by pressing CTRL+Z.

Laying track and doing many other things in Trainz takes practice. What you want to accomplish is very do-able. I highly recommend setting up a scratch route. Even us experienced users have one or two of those hanging around that we use for various things such as checking out assets, practicing with textures, especially the new PBR textures, or testing things and practicing new skills.

I hope this helps. You'll figure it out, I'm sure.

I don't understand what you mean by TransDEM track laying. I don't add splines/anything through this program, except for the UTM aerial overlays. I am beginning to think this game isn't for me, due to all the years I spent stuffing around with Railworks, with such linearity in regards to track laying. There is a checkbox to enable /disable easements. But not in TRS for some reason.

If I can't place a curve exactly to the desired specifications, then I'll likely ditch the project. IE a 7 chain curve with no easements. Are there are tutorials which detail the process for placing track without easements?

This is my focus right now. If I manage to get track and roads in the game, then I'll hopefully get my own lofts/scenery in (track, roads, fences) to replace the majority of the assets from other providers.

 

[SAR704]

I still can't make sense of how to place straight track onto straight track. When I add a section, it swivels/curves, and gets out of whack. It seems so primitive compared to Railworks, which is simple and linear, albeit flawed. There is no obvious indication of the gradient either, until its already been placed.

 

[1611mac]

"Straighten Track" tool... It's the center icon under the pic of your asset (next to the questionmark.) Icon is a straight line and a curved line. Click the tool icon then click a track segment. It's a toggle back and forth.

From the page link JCitron provided above (the "Laying Track" link)

HowTo/Create a Route in 10 Minutes - TrainzOnline

online.ts2009.com

 

[JCitron]

I still can't make sense of how to place straight track onto straight track. When I add a section, it swivels/curves, and gets out of whack. It seems so primitive compared to Railworks, which is simple and linear, albeit flawed. There is no obvious indication of the gradient either, until its already been placed.

Not so. Under the advanced tools, you can "get gradient" to see what the gradient is. You can then type in a gradient and apply a gradient if you want or apply the same gradient.

When working with TransDEM generated routes, I use a combination of Google Earth, the application not the web version, to get the height of the track in meters at specific locations and use that to set the height of the track if any adjustments need to be made. Once I've done that, I noticed that the grades will surprisingly fall right into place. The terrain generated by TransDEM is quite accurate within a few meters. There will be a difference mostly due to resolution of the DEM and the ground mesh due to being limited to either a 10 m or 5 m grid.

I really recommend looking through the How To link I sent.

 

[martinvk]

One thing to keep in mind is that the elevation from DEM data is the top of whatever is at that spot. So urban areas are very iffy and where track goes through forest you will get the tree top elevation.
Are you letting TranDEM place track splines as well as other things like roads, canals buildings etc.? By putting each on its own layer when creating the map, you can work on each one without disturbing the rest.
Although RW is similar in that it is also simulator (some might dispute that) the way things are done is pretty different so that there is little skill transffer between the two.

 

[SAR704]

I only export the terrain, and UTM tiles to the game. I'll have to check the gradients at some point. But right now, I'm having trouble creating accurate curves. I re-rewatched a tutorial regarding laying track, and it seems to suggest inserting additional spline points.

What it doesn't seem to mention is how to create long curves though. I have tried connecting two straight pieces with a curve. But it always ends up as a minimal radius curve, with a long easement at each end. As in I'd like to extend the length of the curve with a consistent radius. Is this doable?

 

[martinvk]

Only terrain and UTM tiles? Hmmm, I would suggest using the route spline feature to help in placing tracks and other spline objects. See the Youtube video TransDEM Tutorial - Basic Trainz Route from Scratch. While five years old, it is very well made and offers a step by step guide. Pay especially close attention at 24:10 - Create railway data filter and later at 36:34 - Export railway data to TransDEM.
It can seem quite daunting at first but follow each step and soon you'll have a well made route map. Note that you shouldn't convert to HD terrain until after you no longer need the data from the exported ground.

If you just join two short straight sections of track with a long curved section, you'll get a long sweeping curve but not necessarily along your desired path. Adding additional spline points in the curve lets you pull the track away from its natural path and instead follow your path.

 

[Forester1]

This is probably doing it the hard way, but what I did with a long 180-degree curve was determine the center point of the curve radius, then run measurement arrows out to both tangent points, the center of the curve, and points about 45-degrees each way on the perimeter to make sure everything was equidistant, setting spline points if necessary. A little tedious perhaps, but it worked out very well, and then I just deleted the arrows.

 

[martinvk]

If you're not using the prototypical alignment from TransDEM or other sources, then measuring curves using either the rulers or one of the many curve templates that are available will suffice. Although with the limits in map data resolution you could only expect higher accuracy if you got hold of actual onsite survey data. and even then, there will always be some small deviation because it is a physical measurement.

And at that point you will have probably spent too much time on one section of track that will only be seen for a short time from you speeding train.

 

[SAR704]

Found this post, which enabled me to place a relatively consistent curve for the first time. https://forums.auran.com/threads/best-way-to-lay-down-a-curve.115553/post-1341856

It's a little all over the place. But I'm not sure if there is any way to place a curved track spline which consists of an identical radius from start to end in this game. It was one of the things I didn't mind about Railworks (TS).

 

[martinvk]

identical radius from start to end

sounds like many model railroad layouts I've seen that use fixed track.

 

[SAR704]

To be honest, I don't know a lot about railway/railroad engineering from any point in time inc 1880s to today.

I have no idea whether or not there were easements included in the sudden 7 chain curves found in the odd South Australian narrow gauge corridor. But having just checked now, there looks to be a very subtle easement included, which I didn't identify previously, when I laid this track 3-4 years ago in Railworks. So perhaps the inbuilt easements function in 'TRS19' is not completely useless after all.

And for the record, I am attempting a short albeit prototypical test route, which steers clear of the project(s) I had in mind, in order to familiarise myself with the interface more.

This is probably doing it the hard way, but what I did with a long 180-degree curve was determine the center point of the curve radius, then run measurement arrows out to both tangent points, the center of the curve, and points about 45-degrees each way on the perimeter to make sure everything was equidistant, setting spline points if necessary. A little tedious perhaps, but it worked out very well, and then I just deleted the arrows.

I found that placing straight track at the desired angle helped a little. I haven't tried this method yet.

 

[SAR704]

And I'd also like to find out how TRS19 handles blocks of scenery/dense/scattered vegetation. I've heard of these spline things. But a search brings up virtually nothing. What are they actually called in this game, and are they adequate to depict scattered foliage, with inconsistent density levels, ie saltbush, without it taking literally weeks to place?

The hilly sections with the route I intend to do are fairly easy. The flat sections though are a total nightmare in comparison.

And is there an ideal way to portray small grass in a route in scattered portions?

 

[Forester1]

Splines are good for walls, fences, roads, tracks and other things you want in a line. Perhaps a line of trees or shrubs in the background. But with plants you will also end up with them in a line. For things like saltbush, you may want to manually plant a small area that varies dense and scattered, and when you get a patch that looks satisfactory, copy that and paste it around using rotation to help keep it randomized. You can then cover a large area fairly quickly. You can even copy a larger area once you get a nice-looking area covered.

 

[SAR704]

Obviously this thread is a few months old. But after ditching TRS19 for 22, I am still wondering why the apexes of some curves I placed in the game are a larger radius than the end points of the curves. I am still new to this, and would appreciate some advice. I have viewed a few vids in regards to placing track. But none of them solve the issue. I have placed the straights for each section for the entire route before placing each curve.

I honestly think that the TRS track spline system is crappier than RW, after using the latter for so long. There is no chance whatsoever of accuracy with the curves down to 0.1 of a metre with the radius value.