Elkhart County PD attempting to ticket Norfolk Southern trains.

[Bluewater]

Yeah you read it right. Story below.

Frustrations continue with stopped trains in Elkhart County

Thursday morning update: If a train blocks a crossing for too long in Elkhart County, it faces a $500 ticket. In a release issued today, the Elkhart County Sheriff's Department said it handed out 18 tickets yesterday for a stopped train. One for every 10 minutes the train wasn't moving.

Here is the full release:

After receiving several complaints of blocked railroad crossings that caused delays for motorists in the Dunlap area, the Elkhart County Sheriff’s Department began communicating with officials from the Norfolk Southern Railroad Company last week. After discussions to have trains removed from the crossings in accordance with Indiana statutes went unheeded by the Norfolk Southern, Sheriff’s Deputies began enforcement efforts yesterday that resulted in eighteen citations being issued to the railroad company.

Beginning at 1:32pm yesterday, the Sheriff’s Department received a complaint from a citizen that the railroad crossing at US 33 and Sunnyside was blocked. At approximately 1:37pm, Norfolk Southern reported that the train was stopped as the “train crew ran out of time”. It was reported that it would take at least 2-3 hours for a new crew to arrive and clear the crossing. At 2:00pm, Sheriff’s Deputies were on-scene and began taking enforcement actions against the railroad company. This resulted in eighteen citations for blocking the crossing, which was calculated per statute for every ten minutes that the train blocked the crossing. At approximately 5:05pm, a new crew arrived and cleared the crossing.

According to Indiana statute 8-6-7.5-1, “It shall be unlawful for a railroad corporation to permit any train, railroad car or engine to obstruct public travel at a railroad-highway grade crossing for a period in excess of (10) minutes, except where such train, railroad car or engine cannot be moved by reason of circumstances over which the railroad corporation has no control.”

According to Indiana statute 8-6-7.5-3, “A railroad corporation, conductor, or engineer who violates this chapter commits a Class C infraction. However, no conductor or engineer acting under the rules or orders of the railroad corporation or its supervisory personnel may be prosecuted for such a violation.

As the decision to stop the train was taken under the rules and orders of the railroad corporation, the citations will be delivered to Norfolk Southern Railroad’s local office in Elkhart. The penalty for violating this statute is a Class C infraction, which finable up to $500.00 for each violation.

It should be noted that prior to enforcement actions being taken, the Sheriff’s Department has been in communication with Norfolk Southern Railroad’s Office of Government Affairs to make them aware of the community’s concerns and that enforcement action would be taken if the trains continued to block railroad crossings.

Elkhart County Sheriff’s Deputies will continue to monitor this situation and will take additional enforcement actions as needed.


Original story posted Wednesday: It happened again Wednesday night.

Trains blocking the crossings in Elkhart County.

We told you Tuesday night how people in Dunlap launched a social media page to get the trains moving.

Now, the sheriff's department is issuing tickets if a train is stopped for more than 10 minutes.

Each ticket costs $500.

Who gets the ticket depends on the situation.

If the engineer keeps the train stopped, that person will get the ticket.

If the company is responsible for the stopped train it will get the ticket.

Either way, Norfolk Southern says it's working to resolve this issue.

Kathie McNeal is upset about the stopped trains and says, "I can see maybe one intersection but then the next one. Why are you blocking them all? It's ridiculous."

A stopped train was blocking Sunnyside Avenue Wednesday for about an hour and a half.

The Elkhart County Sheriff's Department says it wanted to give Norfolk Southern time to fix the problem but they didn't see an improvement so now they're doing something about it.

Trains are allowed to block a crossing for up to ten minutes.

After that, deputies may give out a $500 ticket for every ten minutes the train is still stopped.

David Slovinski lives in Dunlap and says, "I think that's a benefit. I think that's a start in the right direction and I think the more they put pressure on them I think the more results we'll get."

Norfolk Southern says it's in the business of moving trains so it's frustrated with the stopped trains too.

David Pidgeon is a spokesman and he says since this spring there has been a major spike in railroad transportation.

The company has train loads not seen since before the recession.

He says, "We are in a very strong hiring period right now so we need to bring on more conductors and more crews."

He says a lot of those jobs will be coming to Elkhart County.

Norfolk Southern also plans to invest in developing the infrastructure through Elkhart County to increase capacity and improve fluidity of the trains.

He says safety is their number one priority which is part of the reason why the trains are stopping for so long.

Pidgeon says, "If there's a mechanical issue on a locomotive or a car that could cause the train to stop and make sure that mechanical issue is looked at."

Pidgeon says another reason for the stopped trains is because of shift changes.

Each crew can only work so many hours before they have to stop.

The railroad company says it will be months before all of its solutions are in place but the hope is that all of it will help keep trains moving.

Thoughts?

 

[cascaderailroad]

Local, County, State police can issue tickets to trains, and use radar to issue speeding tickets ... blocking several crossings is a violation of public safety, as it cuts a town in two, and severs emergency/fire/ambulance access

 

[ex-railwayman]

''According to Indiana statute 8-6-7.5-3, “A railroad corporation, conductor, or engineer who violates this chapter commits a Class C infraction. However, no conductor or engineer acting under the rules or orders of the railroad corporation or its supervisory personnel may be prosecuted for such a violation.''

Why bother giving a ticket to the engineers then if they can't be prosecuted, very confusing.....

It's a good idea however by the local police, you cannot block a crossing for 2-3 hours whilst a new crew arrives, it's nonsensical, why can't they stop the train somewhere else away from the grade crossings to allow a crew change, they know it's going to happen, why can't they organise themselves a bit better, it never happened in my day on British Rail, trains didn't stop in the middle of nowhere, it was all organised and ran like clockwork.....:hehe:

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[cascaderailroad]

It's a good idea however by the local police, you cannot block a crossing for 2-3 hours whilst a new crew arrives, it's nonsensical, why can't they stop the train somewhere else away from the grade crossings to allow a crew change, they know it's going to happen, why can't they organise themselves a bit better, it never happened in my day on British Rail, trains didn't stop in the middle of nowhere, it was all organised and ran like clockwork.....:hehe:

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

Nothing runs like clockwork, nor on time here in the US, There are locomotive shortages, crew shortages, non-existant telemetry FRED's for trains needing one applied to the rear end, with dead/no memory batteries in them, and the local carman only has broken FRED's, and 127 dead/no memory batteries for the FRED's.

Where my sister lives in Nebraska 75 loaded coal trains per day leave the Powder River Basin, loaded with pulverized coal, bound for eastern ports for export of US coal to places like China, and Florida Power & Light (which burns one 100 ton hopper of coal each and every 5 minutes, 24/7/365). And when a train stops, it blocks 2 towns of RR crossings, severing all road access.

Our RR system is stretched to the limit, largely unrepaired, held together with an old frayed shoestring, flying by the seat of our pants, un-inspected railcars, with wheels having flat spots, and broken roller bearings, Crews are just hoping and praying that the train that rolled into the yard, rolls out of the yard without derailing, and the train will be someone else's responsibility when it gets 300 miles away.

 

[simulatortrain]

''According to Indiana statute 8-6-7.5-3, “A railroad corporation, conductor, or engineer who violates this chapter commits a Class C infraction. However, no conductor or engineer acting under the rules or orders of the railroad corporation or its supervisory personnel may be prosecuted for such a violation.''

Why bother giving a ticket to the engineers then if they can't be prosecuted, very confusing.....

It's a good idea however by the local police, you cannot block a crossing for 2-3 hours whilst a new crew arrives, it's nonsensical, why can't they stop the train somewhere else away from the grade crossings to allow a crew change, they know it's going to happen, why can't they organise themselves a bit better, it never happened in my day on British Rail, trains didn't stop in the middle of nowhere, it was all organised and ran like clockwork.....:hehe:

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

FWIW, trains would have to stop in the middle of nowhere to avoid blocking crossings.

 

[stealthsteam]

Looking at the area of the conflict and its surroundings makes the state laws look a little unreasonable for only a 10 minute wait when the controversial stretch leads right into a substantial railyard a short ways up. Of course I do not know the quantity of traffic coming and going from the yard and all the through trains.

Yes, safety of the railroad and the surrounding county for train movements and local emergency response personnel is important. Although these 18 tickets on this particular train sounds in conflict of federal law of the hours of service act and company regulations, primarily the earlier. It could also be looked at as out of NS's control as to the availability of train personnel and their location from the train. Another thing is it sounds like the sheriff (probably not knowledgeable about railroad operations) did not give enough time for NS to fully assess and implement any fixes to the problems as they had later mentioned of it going to take a few months to get everything in place.

In my opinion those state laws are stupidly written.

Just my two cents. It looks to be a rather interesting conflict.

 

[JCitron]

I agree that blocking crossing is wrong, in particular if the train is going to be at a location for some time, however, the local sheriff is going a bit over the top especially if the RR is attempting to mitigate the situation and he didn't give the corporation the time they requested to do it.

If anything, the train could the train be cut on either side of the crossings? I know this would be an additional time waster and expense on the railroad's part, but at least the crossings would be blocked.

@Cascaderailroad.

No all railroads look like the Delaware and Lackawanna or Pan Am Railways! The big railroads out west, in particular the BNSF and UP, have 50-60 mph freights moving on these stretches of track. It's quite amazing seeing 100-car coal trains, coming out of the Powder River Basin, with two high-powered locos on the rear and another 2 to 4 on the point, moving along at that speed. Back in May 2013, I was up in the Sand Hills in northern Nebraska, just on the South Dakota border and saw several long coal and container trains moving along at this speed on the old CB&Q main line. Coming from the northeast and seeing something other than rusty tracks and decrepit equipment, I was taken back by how silently these trains moved along on these tracks.

John

 

[jordon412]

If anything, the train could the train be cut on either side of the crossings? I know this would be an additional time waster and expense on the railroad's part, but at least the crossings would be blocked.

That's debatable. The closer the crossings are to each other, the amount of switching to separate the cars would take a lot of time because there would be only room for just a few cars between each crossings. However, if the crossings are far from each other, it would be more feasible, because the switching would not take that long.

I also have a little humorous story for everyone:
The Visitors Center in Dalton is located in the old Southern freight depot, with the loading platform turned into a railfan platform, next to Morris Street in downtown Dalton. Across the tracks from the visitors center is 'The Creamo', a small restaurant that serves ice cream and the usual fast food. I was watching trains on the south side of Morris Street, across the road from The Creamo, and a southbound CSX train was slowly coming towards me. I saw it come to a stop on the north side of Morris Street, an was surprised to see the door on the locomotive's nose open up and a crewmember got off the train and walked over to The Creamo. Apparently it's pretty popular with railroad employees.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody

I agree that blocking crossing is wrong, in particular if the train is going to be at a location for some time, however, the local sheriff is going a bit over the top especially if the RR is attempting to mitigate the situation and he didn't give the corporation the time they requested to do it.

If anything, the train could the train be cut on either side of the crossings? I know this would be an additional time waster and expense on the railroad's part, but at least the crossings would be unblocked.
John

John i have to say that i feel there can never be any acceptable reasons for blocking a highway short of mechanical failiure. You have think not only of the emergency services requiring access to the full length of the road but also of businesses and people who need to go about their everyday lives and work requiring access. In the stated case the railroad company seem to think that they are more important than any other business or person when it comes to use of that crossing.......NOT SO.

Roads are the the formost means of transport comunication in todays world. A person wishing to travel by rail always has to arrive at the station by road. The overwhelming percentage of freight arrives at a raihead by road prior to traveling by rail. People have to use roads everyday throughout their lives, they do not have to use railways everyday of their lives.

The above stated highways must always have presidents in transport comuication. It should be and must be an essential part of this railway companies planning to ensure that its operations do not interfere with other business or people beyond mechanical failiure. Train crew scheduling etc can be planned and must be planned so as to not interfere with others or leave consists blocking crossings.

In the United. Kingdom their is one catch all traffic regulation that immediately solves the above kind of situation, that being the obstruction of a highway regulation. The forgoing regulation makes the unnecessary obstuction of a highway an arrestable offence and any person instucting another person to obstruct a highway also liable to prosecution and in my opinion that is exactly as it should be.

Everyone in the area surrounding this crossing has evey right to protest at the raiway companies careless inefficient action and it is good to see the police supporting them and doing all they can to resolve the situation. Let us all hope they succeed and the railway company is swamped with litigation and perhaps a few people thrown in the slammer not in a few months time but now so that it will be seen that common sence can prevail against big bullying company conglomerates.

Bill

 

[Bluewater]

I have talked to a few employees and they all say the same thing: Local or County officers cannot ticket railroads as it is out of their jurisdiction by order of the US Supreme Court (only the FRA/NTSB mandates them). Most won't even let the officer aboard the locomotive. NS will most likely contest the tickets and win because of a Supreme Court decision that I'm still trying to track down. I will post a link if I do.

As for "parking it in an unnecessary spot":

No one can tell what will happen on any given day on the railroad. Only predictions and estimates. A train the DS though could make it to the yard in time could blow an air hose and stay stopped for three hours as the crew finds, fixes, and checks the fault. Or, a train the DS thought would die on the HOS before it got to its destination could get there with time to spare. No one knows until it's happening or happened. That's why freight trains don't run on set schedules and also why railroads don't have a plan for a train's stopping. There are just too many variables to account for to even try and create one. The people in Dunlap are right now asking the impossible because we simply just don't have the knowledge for what will happen any given day. Elkhart County PD showed some major stupidity by giving NS 24 HOURS (yes HOURS) to come up with a plan. It can't be done in 24 hours. Heck not even 48 is enough in most cases. Unless a miracle happens these people are fighting a lost cause, at least until the third track is completed.


EDIT: I have gone through Google and found several State Supreme Court or US Supreme Court rulings that all threw out the "anti-blocking" statutes because Federal Law preempts City/State law in this matter. That being said, it is clear the Elkhart County PD is overstepping their boundaries by ticketing NS and it is only a matter of time before the tickets are voided by a judge.

 

[SergeantC]

I have talked to a few employees and they all say the same thing: Local or County officers cannot ticket railroads as it is out of their jurisdiction by order of the US Supreme Court (only the FRA/NTSB mandates them). Most won't even let the officer aboard the locomotive. NS will most likely contest the tickets and win because of a Supreme Court decision that I'm still trying to track down. I will post a link if I do.

As for "parking it in an unnecessary spot":

No one can tell what will happen on any given day on the railroad. Only predictions and estimates. A train the DS though could make it to the yard in time could blow an air hose and stay stopped for three hours as the crew finds, fixes, and checks the fault. Or, a train the DS thought would die on the HOS before it got to its destination could get there with time to spare. No one knows until it's happening or happened. That's why freight trains don't run on set schedules and also why railroads don't have a plan for a train's stopping. There are just too many variables to account for to even try and create one. The people in Dunlap are right now asking the impossible because we simply just don't have the knowledge for what will happen any given day. Elkhart County PD showed some major stupidity by giving NS 24 HOURS (yes HOURS) to come up with a plan. It can't be done in 24 hours. Heck not even 48 is enough in most cases. Unless a miracle happens these people are fighting a lost cause, at least until the third track is completed.


EDIT: I have gone through Google and found several State Supreme Court or US Supreme Court rulings that all threw out the "anti-blocking" statutes because Federal Law preempts City/State law in this matter. That being said, it is clear the Elkhart County PD is overstepping their boundaries by ticketing NS and it is only a matter of time before the tickets are voided by a judge.

Exactly what I was thinking. Railroads are Federally regulated (under the U.S. government's power to regulate interstate commerce) and Federal law trumps state and local law. If the crew dies on the HOS, and the train cannot be moved until a replacement crew arrives, per Federal law, that would be that.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.
Having worked in and around the British road haualage industry throughout my life (Trucking industry in the US) one thing that has vastly improved over recent years is vehicle reliability. Provided a good maintenance/service regime is put in place and strictly aplied then breakdowns simply do not happen. The same standards apply with the train operating companys in the UK and those in northern Europe. Therefore to state that no company can predict or factor in what will happen regarding breakdows on a day to day basis is simply nonsense, thay should not be happening. If they are happening on a regular basis then something is very wrong on the maintenance side of the business.

The same applies with driver/crew scheduling. Todays computer software programs used in the transport industry along with vehicle/train gps tracking can give company traffic coordinators minute by minute updates on exactly crew working hours, the vehicle or train position and forward arrival times or crew working time restrictions coming in to force. Therefore again their can be no reason why a crew should run out of working time and be forced to leave a train at a crossing blocking a highway. This company shouid have predicted this event hours in advance and stopped the train well prior to its arrival at the crossing. In the forgoing, the statement put out by by the railroad company is simply not acceptable.

We then have the company excuse that thay have far more traffic than expected. Again this statement is not acceptable. If you cannot be sure that crew working hours or track capacity will allow the journey to be compleated, then plan to stop short of the destination and in a position that will not interfere with other businesses or persons. Other than the forgoing do not start the journey until the computer software advises it can be compleated.

The business and peoples of this town have a right to expect to go about their lives unencumbered by the inefficiencies of this railroad company. If this company is protected by state or federal legislation from prosecution then that is wrong and should be removed immediately. Along with the forgoing, If this railroad company do not realise that they do nothing more than provide ammunition for the road lobby and others by this kind of action then the rail industry would be better of if they where no longer in business and part of the rail industry.

Bill

 

[cascaderailroad]

I think we all are giving our un-expert decisions what might happen on this ... and I would bet that they CAN ticket the train, and cause the RR company to show up in local municipal court, via a summons ... whether it gets thrown out, have a fine paid as a settlement, or would get turned over to higher courts would remain to be seen.

In the Chicago are they made RR's walk trains through crossings via a flagman at 15 mph, and have enforced whistle bans for night, and in some localities daytime enforcement.

So saying Federal law trumps all local laws, and FRA laws superceeds all local law, is just not true in some cases.

And laws and rulings in other Countries, have absolutely no bearing on the outcome of Elkhart IN law.
And court judgements in other US States, have absolutely no bearing on the outcome of Elkhart IN law.

 

[oknotsen]

Apparently there is a law that does not allow a train to block a crossing, so they get a ticket. Sounds like how the system works and usually has some learning / preventive effect.

I say: Keep sending NS tickets till they stick to the law or the law gets changed.

One of these days someone is going to die because an ambulance was not able to reach that person in time because some train was blocking a crossing for too long. When that happens, the $500 ticket will be nothing compared to the law suite related to the death of someone.

By the way, does someone have a google maps link to the specific crossings this topic is about? Elkhart County has a few, so I like to know which one(s) cause the problem.

 

[GP30Fan]

The following two links should help with location.

NS is constructing a third track in the area to fill in about a 3 mile
gap in three rail main in that area. All the available info on the
construction is talked about in the links.

The main problem is the 3 miles east of the intersection
of US 33 and County Road 26.

Bing maps shows it very well in Birdseye View.

You can easily see the gap where the three rail ends on the northern end
to where it again goes to three rail about 3 miles east in Goshen, IN.


http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=29275

http://railroadfan.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=30534

-AL

 

[Bluewater]

I think we all are giving our un-expert decisions what might happen on this...

Not me. This information I gave comes from DOJ documents on these cases as well as from three railroad employees: One from BNSF, two from NS. All of them said the same thing.

And court judgements in other US States, have absolutely no bearing on the outcome of Elkhart IN law.

You misread what I said. I said that several places had their statutes thrown out because of federal law on the matter and that Indiana probably isn't far off from getting theirs thrown out as well.

The State of Michigan still officially has a statute against this but it was deemed "unenforceable" by the courts after the State was sued by several railroads.

 

[wholbr]

You misread what I said. I said that several places had their statutes thrown out because of federal law on the matter and that Indiana probably isn't far off from getting theirs thrown out as well.

The State of Michigan still officially has a statute against this but it was deemed "unenforceable" by the courts after the State was sued by several railroads.

Bluewater, whatever the legislation is, it still does not make blocking this crossing acceptable. In fact the railroad companies action and their statements in mitigation of the siuation they created are indefensible. They certainly should be brought to account in the courts with the heaviest of penalties placed against them. If this cannot be carried out then there is something very wrong with the law in these circumstances.

Bill

 

[Bluewater]

But following that logic, even if the train was stopped for a signal or some sort of on board emergency, it still wouldn't be legal to stop at the crossing. These trains are stopped for safety reasons. The people complaining in Dunlap have no idea how the railroad works. Robert R. Young Yard in Elkhart is a massive yard and it's at capacity most of the time. No space=no entry=waiting outside the receiving section of the yard until ample space is available. The "law" states that the train crew must be ticketed unless they are following orders of a superior (the DS or yardmaster) and then the superiors or the nearest office will be ticketed. Problem is is that the Dispatcher and yardmaster don't have control over how many cars they receive or how packed the yard is. The only thing they can do is move everything to the right spot as fast and as safe as possible. Following the logic of the law, the shippers would have to be ticketed because of the amount of cars they are sending out with their loads that cause the jam-up in the yard which in turn causes delays on the mainline.

NS is doing the best they can with the limits they have. I'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that there are also several capital projects going on on that portion of the line as well, including new signalling and the installation of a third main track to try and help with the capacity issues. NS is seeing record numbers of freight shipments and are lacking crews out of Elkhart to move everything fast. Winter should help the situation because they can't lay track in winter and all maintenance programs (except critical ones) are halted until the thaw.

NS is also in the process of making a deal with the Grand Elk Railroad here in Kalamazoo to run a local from Jackson, MI to here in Kalamazoo to interchange cars to attempt to take some of the load off Train #302 (Kalamazoo-NS Elkhart-Kalamazoo). If the deal is made NS also might have a possibility to route some Detroit-bound traffic off the Chicago Line at Elkhart before it gets to the Dunlap area and then run them north to Kalamazoo and east to Detroit like they used to pre-recession. It's only speculation at the moment but it might help ease the pressure.

 

[wholbr]

[ QUOTE=Bluewater;1331199]-SNIP- following that logic, even if the train was stopped for a signal or some sort of on board emergency, it still wouldn't be legal to stop at the crossing. These trains are stopped for safety reasons. The people business complaining in Dunlap have no idea how the railroad works. Robert R. Young Yard in Elkhart is a massive yard and it's at capacity most of the time. No space=no entry=waiting outside the receiving section.-SNIP-[/QUOTE]

Bluewater, with the greatest of respect for your views , but i feel you are trying to defend the indefensible. Of coarse trains should be allowed to block crossings for short periods of time or for longer periods in urgent safety circumstances. However that is not what is in question in this scenario. The railroad company is in the process of blocking this crossing for hours, days or even weeks on a reoccurring basis even going by their own statements. They may have problems with capacity but that however is their business problem which should not be "dumped" on the towns population. If the capacity is not their to accommodate all the traffic then dont send it in. Plan to send it through other railheads or if that is not possible do not take on the traffic untill the increased capacity is available.

The towns population may not understand the operation of a railway, but they should not need to know. They have their own lives, businesses and safety to look after whitch should not be subject to interference from the railroad company. Other than the forgoing bluewater and with respect, are you stating that their lives and businesses do not matter or at best subservient to the operation of the railway.

Bill

 

[rgcx]

I am going to burst the bubble and inform you that railroads are regularly ticketed for blocking x-ings and indeed they pay the tickets.

It is a small cost of being a freight carrier. Crew members call their manager of operations to deal with the local police.