Don't Expect Freeware Creators to Fix Your Errors

Isn't the Problem if you have a route that is 3.6 and you want to download it from TS12 49922 CM but there are 1000 or more dependancies and a considerable number of them have been updated to 3.7 or 4.2 then CM will not download them you have to go into the White pages and look for other versions and download them individually. That may qualify as broken to some people.

Ken
 
The part where, when someone overwrites a download file, it overwrites the previous original file, and it puts a new updated file in it's placed ... someday you will finally see what I am talking about when people start destroying previous versions ... and it can be done !
 
You know it stopped being funny a long time ago, right?

The part where, when someone overwrites a download file, it overwrites the previous original file, and it puts a new updated file in it's placed ... someday you will finally see what I am talking about when people start destroying previous versions ... and it can be done !
Some day you will admit that this is not happening. Even if you upload something with exactly the same KUID, it will still get a different KUID (a KUID2 to be exact) and become a new asset. The old one is still on the DLS., just turned obsolete.
 
The part where, when someone overwrites a download file, it overwrites the previous original file, and it puts a new updated file in it's placed ... someday you will finally see what I am talking about when people start destroying previous versions ... and it can be done !

You don't seem to understand that it doesn't...

When you update an asset, a new revision is uploaded and the kuid is incremented by 1. The original is still present on the DLS and can be downloaded if you request a specific version, so KUID:XXXXX:XXXXX:1 as opposed to 3 for example. Hell, I downloaded a 2004 version of an asset that was updated to TS12 just to prove it could be done in another thread where you gave off the same asinine ramble, and what do you know, the build number in the assets' config file was 2.4...

Just because you don't know how to do it doesn't mean it can't be done...
 
Based on the following white page searches, I'd say, as a general rule, older versions are retained on the DLS and can be manually downloaded. 100% of the time? I'd not go as far as to say that. I can see :3 versions with no :1 or :2 version out there. Does that mean the :1 & :2 versions were "overwritten". Maybe not. Possibly there was never a :1 or :2 version uploaded to the DLS. Or occasionally creators have requested that an older version be removed when they discovered problems with that version. Who knows?

I'd say, give us a kuid number of an asset you know you uploaded at a lower build number and version number that is no longer out there because someone overwrote it with a higher build number and version number.

Here are a few white page querries based on kuid numbers as shown below and the results. I can see the same basic kuids with 2004 and TS12 versions still out there and downloadable.

philskene

Kuid search criteria: KUID:69871:100562

Results:

<KUID2:69871:100562:2> (TS12) (likely updated by someone other than philskene)
<KUID2:69871:100562:1> (TRS2004)

Kuid search criteria: KUID2:69871:2067

Results:

<KUID2:69871:2067:2> (TS12)
<KUID2:69871:2067:1> (TS2009-TS2010)

RRSIGNAL

Superscript library

Kuid search criteria: KUID2:481384:11111196

Results:
All TS12 versions

<KUID2:481384:11111196:6>
<KUID2:481384:11111196:5>
<KUID2:481384:11111196:4>
<KUID2:481384:11111196:2>


sporbust

Kuid search criteria: KUID:113556:51055>

Results:

<KUID2:113556:51055:3> (TS2009)
<KUID2:113556:51055:2> (TS2004)
 
Based on the following white page searches, I'd say, as a general rule, older versions are retained on the DLS and can be manually downloaded. 100% of the time? I'd not go as far as to say that. I can see :3 versions with no :1 or :2 version out there. Does that mean the :1 & :2 versions were "overwritten". Maybe not. Possibly there was never a :1 or :2 version uploaded to the DLS. Or occasionally creators have requested that an older version be removed when they discovered problems with that version. Who knows?
...
Just to let you know that not everyone used all version numbers in sequence. There are gaps in many kuid versions, there are even gaps in the kuid sequences themselves.
The kuid gaps could mean that some objects were never uploaded and stayed on the creator's computer. Some of the version gaps are because the creator just did it that way.

No matter, if they were uploaded, they are still on the DLS. As for getting anything removed, do you know how difficult that is? There have been vast discussions on that topic.
 
Thank you for saying this, Torino72. This is pure common sense for those that still have that. :)

Reworking newer files, programs, or data to work in an older version of any program for that matter, is opening up risks of the data not working properly. In some cases, the data format has not changed and the newer files can be brought in fine, but in many cases the data structure has changed so the data cannot be transferred if at all.

John
 
What part of previous versions are still available to download is so hard to understand?

In fairness to Cascade, I too have run into the issue of earlier assets disappearing from the DLS in the past, even when searching the (at the time) Black Pages. I know that's not what's "supposed" to happen, but it has happened, and I've raised Helpdesk tickets once or twice.
 
I think the point that Phil was making is that the person that fixed his routes did not change the description. It still says that the routes are usable in older versions when they are not. If you are going to repair an asset then it should be noted in the description that the object is in only usable in TANE.

William
 
Isn't the Problem if you have a route that is 3.6 and you want to download it from TS12 49922 CM but there are 1000 or more dependancies and a considerable number of them have been updated to 3.7 or 4.2 then CM will not download them you have to go into the White pages and look for other versions and download them individually. That may qualify as broken to some people.

Ken


Ken,

You are a very wise man. I agree that asking users to download hundreds or thousands of assets by hand is not reasonable and most Trainz users would consider the route as broken. There is a bug in the DLS download routine that even if a route lists the older unfixed asset as a dependency, the newest version of that asset will be downloaded. The proper behavior would be to download the version listed by the route's config.txt.

William
 
In T:ANE CM, when displaying dependencies, there are two options for downloading missing ones, "download" and "download this version." That would imply the ability to get the original version or the current one. Is that what it really does?
 
... earlier assets disappearing from the DLS in the past, even when searching the (at the time) Black Pages. I know that's not what's "supposed" to happen, but it has happened, and I've raised Helpdesk tickets once or twice.
What was the resolution? Were they really missing? Still missing? KUIDs?
 
I think there are a couple of issues. First that for something like a layout its a lot of work to update all the assets within the layout and it isn't something that can always be done within four weeks. Secondly if you have a hundred or so assets that need sorting out because the version of trainz has changed it becomes a chore. Even so some assets are best left to the content creator to fix.

Then you get to I'm running TS12 and want to download a layout that was designed for TS210, works fine except the dependencies are for the basic kuid, so the DLS goes for the highest version number which may not work in TS12. Yes I know that N3V would like everyone to run TANE but not every one has the hardware for it and there are many assets that haven't been upgraded yet. Even when you run them in TANE there can be problems with shadows. Is TS12 I have wagons that are fine with shadows but in TANE the shadows disappear.

I don't think there is a single good answer.

Cheerio John
 
Total Asset Database (TAD) as reported by my Content Manager at TB 4.3 ON 21 FEB 16.

384,488 (includes Obsoletes, Out of Date, and Missing Dependencies on DLS, Builtin, Payware and Local)


Total Installed (includes Builtin, Payware, Obsoletes, Out of Date, and Missing Dependencies)



Total Builtin (includes Builtin Obsoletes, Out of Date, Missing Dependencies and Payware)

BI - ALL 14,405
BI - OBS 28 Cannot be deleted in CM only superseded.
BI - OOD 0


Local Installed (excluding Builtins)

LOCAL - ALL 254,355
LOCAL - OBS 0 I delete these progressively and there is always the original on the DLS (DLS - OBS).
LOCAL - OOD 5 These are actually obsoletes that can't be deleted as CM cannot resolve due to a corruption.

DLS - ALL 110,559 This reflects that I have the remaining DLS hosted assets either builtin or local installed.
DLS -OBS 110,291
DLS - OOD 84

Current anomalies

1. :127 errors.
2. bastardisation of obsoleting protocol as happened when TC were updated to TS2009 created missing numbers in asset sequence.
3. Residual TS12 builtins not required in TANE builtins not yet migrated to DLS.
4. KUID typos producing missing dependencies.
5. DLS Cleanup.
6. Assets have been removed due to COC violation (I have identified 3,783 I believe fall into this category).

Note all stats concerning assets are relative to the version and build of the Trainz instal you are using and its validation.

In theory and in the past you should be able to DL any asset that has a trainz-build equal or lower than the Trainz version's trainz-build (backwards compatability), but not higher.
CM downloader now warns that an asset is higher TB and cannot be used. I haven't recently tested this as my focus is currently on future development not public releases.

Assets are either compliant or non-compliant.

Missing Dependencies other than the above anomalies are caused by the asset not being hosted on the DLS.
In other words CM cannot resolve therefore it is UNKNOWN. I cannot give you a figure here until TANE versions of the DLC + Murchison II and SnC are released SooooN.

Thus in my case DLS-OBS represent 28% of my TAD and rapidly increasing as Creators upversion their assets. It would be different if I was validating using TS12 SP1 HF4 (TB 3.7), or any legacy Trainz version where those obsoletes as far as TANE is concerned, are still active. Thus in order for you to download from the DLS, they must be on the DLS and are. (use CM\Content\Download this Version). I have downloaded the complete DLS so I am confident that the above is a fair representation of the true situation.

Anyway, the game in your currently installed Trainz/TANE build only uses the latest version of an asset installed on your PC/MAC/mobile, so for most situations other than comparing an obsolete copy with the latest, obsoletes are of little interest.

BOTTOM LINE - Obsoletes are not overwritten by a later version. They co-exist on DLS, but only the latest version of an asset relative to your instal is used by your installed games.

I've not done any extensive testing of dependency trainz-build vs asset trainz-build vs Trainz trainz-build. My impression is that a dependency can have a higher trainz-build than the asset it belongs to provided it does not exceed the Trainz trainz-build.
 
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I can see :3 versions with no :1 or :2 version out there. Does that mean the :1 & :2 versions were "overwritten". Maybe not. Possibly there was never a :1 or :2 version uploaded to the DLS.

That is certainly the case. The first (and only) version of an asset I uploaded to the DLS was the :4 version - versions 1, 2 and 3 existed only on my computer and were never uploaded. Just to make sure that these unreleased earlier versions did not cause any future problems, I included them in the obsolete table in the config.txt file - although I was not absolutely sure if that step was actually necessary.
 
If you try and upload content with the same version number as an existing item, the upload is rejected, I have never found that it was accepted and up-versioned automatically. I have not uploaded via CM which may be different. However, regardless of how the up up-versioning is done it does ensure that existing content always has a lower version than the latest upload.

I think Cascade is always compelled to believe the worst case, pity.

NormP There are not many of us real oldies around, congrats for making it this far.

Peter
 
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I think the point that Phil was making is that the person that fixed his routes did not change the description. It still says that the routes are usable in older versions when they are not. If you are going to repair an asset then it should be noted in the description that the object is in only usable in TANE.

The asset is at the build number it is because the DLS won't accept anything lower. It has not been 'upgraded' to TS12 or T:ANE - that is the original creator's task. It is still the 06/09/10 version, with errors fixed so it is compatible with TS12 and T:ANE and can be loaded and run in those versions. If it had been upgraded then things like the water texture or the floating vehicles would have also been fixed. The vast majority of these assets can be set back to their original build number because the only changes made were errors that were always there, but are only revealed by the stricter error checking of later versions. But not routes, because they use a different internal format.

The build number reveals the version of Trainz it is usable with - no changes to the creator's original comments are required.
 
All this would be fine if the KUID2 replacement system worked the way it's supposed to, which it rarely does, and if I didn't have to wait 5 minutes for TADDaemon to scan the DLS so it could inform me there are 10455 content updates available every single time I launch TS2010. Allowing children to upload "fixed" versions for the DLS cleanup project would also be okay if there was some adult supervision, unfortunately they take an asset that worked fine, strip out needed code until it no longer shows errors or warnings in the new version, then upload something that the DLS accepts since it has no errors but it no longer works. That Alco RS-3 engine spec that was "fixed" by deleting all the CAB mode data is just one example, there are several others. Unless it's done correctly there's no point doing it at all.
 
I hesitated to post this but decided it needs to be said. If you download freeware and attempt to use it in a Trainz version other than that in which the creator tested it and you get errors, do not expect that the creator should fix this for you. Fix it yourself.

As long as you know what version the creator is testing in then that is the only version in which it may work without errors, regardless of the trainz-build number. It is reasonable to assume the creator tested it and it was without red flag errors before he/she released it.

We have too few freeware creators left in Trainz as it is without driving them away with all this "I'm getting this (you fill in the blank) error in Trainz." Were I to release freeware, I'd tell you what version of Trainz I used to test it and it was error free in that version, so don't even expect me to fix it for you.

In the past week, we (those of us who use versions other than TANE) lost access to future content being created by MSGSapper because those in TS12 were getting errors that he was not getting in TANE (the version he tests in). To accommodate everyone, he fixed 90 plus assets and re-uploaded the to the DLS. He further stated that he would no longer release assets in other than trainz-build 4.3 (TANE). So now, TS12 and lower users, you will have to purchase/register/install TANE to get his newer content.

The sad part of this is that every one of these errors were user fixable and MSGSapper should not have felt compelled to fix them for everyone. I have not downloaded his 90 plus fixed versions because I had already fixed every one of these errors myself.

DAVESNOW faces a similar situation, although somewhat reversed. He tests and releases builds for TS12 and has TANE users complaining about errors.

What he should say, in my opinion, is "Hey, this is freeware. Fix it yourself."

Fixing most of this content only requires some basic KSAs. A little Knowledge, Skill, and Ability. I have yet to learn to create content, but I can make it work to my satisfaction. If you are going to work with Trainz you need to develop some basic KSAs and leave the content creators alone so they can create.

Everyone should obtain a copy of the freeware program, Search & Replace Master and learn to use it. I use this as well as PEV's Textures to TGA and PM2IM programs very frequently. Get them and play with them. They are easy to use.

Back to MSGSapper's 90 plus assets, some of which displayed more than 1 or more errors. They were all fixed within minutes using Search & Replace Master. The most common error seemed to be the "asset-filename is obsolete" message. I opened all of the red flagged error files for edit. I pointed Search & Replace Master to the location of the open for edit config.txt file. For example, C:\Auran\TS2010\UserData\Editing\ and checked Include Sub-Folders. On the next tab, I told Search & Replace Master to look for "asset-filename" and replace it with the word "author" and fix it only 1 time in each file. The replace word can be any non-critical tag that does not require a specific entry following it. Let's say that 50 of the 90 files contained this error. When I clicked "Execute" all 50 files with this error were instantly repaired. I committed the files and the error was gone.

I had fixed the errors myself too. If something is going to be released with a lower build number, it SHOULD be tested to work with the build number. There are a large majority of Trainz users who have no interest in TANE and never will. Including me. Taking time to fix daily errors on new content just updated to the DLS takes time away from actually enjoying the game, whether it be route building or running sessions. If he only wants to make content for TANE from now on, so be it. But he is going to be making it for a very limited audience. For the record I appreciate MSGSapper's work over the years. And I do own TS12 though it shows on here that I do not.
 
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