Do we need an independent Asset Registry - Debate

[johnwhelan]

Well I haven't uploaded any routes or anything else yet for that matter, long work in progress, however my plan to check if every thing is on the DLS, is to use a copy of Trainz with no extra content and then import the route and check the dependencies in CM2, should be a fairly quick way of finding what's not on the DLS, if you have the spare disk or PC capacity to have extra copies of Trainz lying around that is. Then it's just a case of either giving concise instructions as to where to get any content from that isn't on the DLS or replacing them with ones that are.

Problem with items not on the DLS is that web sites come and go. Some content creators delete older items off their web site because they aren't personally interested in them any more.

Cheerio John

 

[johnwhelan]

And just why should it be restricted to what little is on Auran's DLS when there is so much more out there! And many of the assets available elsewhere, like on the TrainzResources Directory can acually have better imagery that what is allowed on Auran's DLS.

Probably because its reliable, the content is error checked, if there is an update available it's in one place. I have content onthe DLS and some the same in other places, the other places doesn't get my updated and corrected content. It's too much hassle to go through the upload process.

Also I can get an idea of what is popular on the DLS and knock a few more things out that are along the same lines.

Cheerio John

 

[clam1952]

Problem with items not on the DLS is that web sites come and go. Some content creators delete older items off their web site because they aren't personally interested in them any more.

Cheerio John

Good point and duly noted, don't think I am actually using anything critical that can't be substituted, if anything crops up that there isn't an equivalent for I'll just have to build a suitable replacement myself.

 

[American_Connections]

Reliability?

Probably because its reliable, the content is error checked, if there is an update available it's in one place. I have content onthe DLS and some the same in other places, the other places doesn't get my updated and corrected content. It's too much hassle to go through the upload process.

Also I can get an idea of what is popular on the DLS and knock a few more things out that are along the same lines.

Cheerio John

Auran, reliable! really John, think about this! As for keeping things updated, I had to do over and over again with the DLS, and old versions were still there, even they were outdated. Error checking should be done by the creator before submission anywhere, and we all know not everything on the DLS is error free! Using the directory and my personal site, updates are sure to replace the old and is much simpler! Not that the DLS is not good, just better to have more than one source available. I like what John King has done with this (to the point) directory!

 

[johnwhelan]

Auran, reliable! really John, think about this! As for keeping things updated, I had to do over and over again with the DLS, and old versions were still there, even they were outdated. Error checking should be done by the creator before submission anywhere, and we all know not everything on the DLS is error free! Using the directory and my personal site, updates are sure to replace the old and is much simpler! Not that the DLS is not good, just better to have more than one source available. I like what John King has done with this (to the point) directory!

I think it would be useful if Auran and yourself could come to some sort of agreement whereby your content was available on the DLS.

Reliable, well the DLS has been around for ten years now, how many Trainz web sites are still going? New versions, CM2 indicates when new versions are available on the DLS, there doesn't seem to be a way to check for new versions on other sites other than go through a list of 93 Trainz sites that have items for download available every week. Not my idea of fun.

I'd rather put my faith in content from the DLS having fewer errors than content from a third party site.

Cheerio John

 

[Johnk]

Snippet: . . there doesn't seem to be a way to check for new versions on other sites other than go through a list of 93 Trainz sites that have items for download available every week. Not my idea of fun.

I'm my opening remarks for this debate, I asked if there was a need for an independent Asset Registry, not a new and competing DLS. The idea of such a registry was to give content creators better exposure, allow them to display their models better and to use a different and hopefully more user friendly indexing system than the DLS for the registry's visitors. I envisaged that such a registry would have direct links to the download page on the DLS, plus provision for content creators to advise of any updates. The software I use can easily be changed with the flick of switch to advise people via email if a particular page has indeed been updated. I'm not suggesting that the registry would run under that software, but it does show that the technology is there to keep people informed.

 

[American_Connections]

I'm not as think as you drunk I am!

#1("I think it would be useful if Auran and yourself could come to some sort of agreement whereby your content was available on the DLS'...).
#2(..."my faith"...).

Cheerio John

#1- I think it would be good if Auran could come to an agreement, first with itself, and more so with the creators that give thier product 90% of it's content, by listing contributors sites and links as they said they would eight years ago! Even a Wiki does this better! That is all the Resource Directory is doing, just to aid Trainz (key word).
#2- Good that you believe in something man! Sure hope ya'll got your money out of your lifetime FCT, they will expire by the end of 2012!

 

[johnwhelan]

Snippet: . . there doesn't seem to be a way to check for new versions on other sites other than go through a list of 93 Trainz sites that have items for download available every week. Not my idea of fun.

I'm my opening remarks for this debate, I asked if there was a need for an independent Asset Registry, not a new and competing DLS. The idea of such a registry was to give content creators better exposure, allow them to display their models better and to use a different and hopefully more user friendly indexing system than the DLS for the registry's visitors. I envisaged that such a registry would have direct links to the download page on the DLS, plus provision for content creators to advise of any updates. The software I use can easily be changed with the flick of switch to advise people via email if a particular page has indeed been updated. I'm not suggesting that the registry would run under that software, but it does show that the technology is there to keep people informed.

Need to me means cannot do without.

On that criteria you have to look at what the requirements are. Do all content creators wish to promote their content or do they just make it for their own pleasure and drop a copy on the DLS? I don't think there is a single answer. Users, do they care if they have to play hunt the asset on many web sites or would they prefer to just done load the route? From what I've seen in the forum most prefer to get it all from one place. I think there is even a thread about layouts with all the assets on the DLS.

Is the Trainz Resources Directory reliable and actually contains links to everything you need to know?

Well I followed a link and got "Yahoo Sorry this page is not available." For research US yes it contains a fair bit of information.

Routes - UK "There are no listings available in this category". Ever looked here?http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?t=3301&highlight=layouts

for UK it is sparse to say the least so it isn't a one stop shop.

Does it let me know if someone has updated a kuid I have to a new version number on Trainzproroutes quickly? I couldn't spot how to do it. CM2 I think it's selectable.

Does it add value, yes it's somewhere to start but only that.

Cheerio John

 

[Johnk]

Now, Now John, I think the prospect of long Canadian winter is starting to get at you:

Snippet: Is the Trainz Resources Directory reliable and actually contains links to everything you need to know?

Is anything that reliable? Who knows what you need to know? My crystal ball is a bit fogged up right now.

Snippet: Well I followed a link and got "Yahoo Sorry this page is not available." For research US yes it contains a fair bit of information.

Any chance you can share that dead link with me so I can fix it. It would seem that you didn't read my concerns about broken links on the home page.

Snippet: Routes - UK "There are no listings available in this category".

Just in case you didn't read the home page, here's a snippet about Routes:

Routes section to be removed
None of the route builders have shown any interest in displaying their work either, so that section gets the chop also.

Snippet: Ever looked here?http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showt...hlight=layouts

I have actually. It's the greatest load of mumbo-jumbo I've ever come across in my life. It looks like all the words fell out of an upturned truck. No wonder the server spat the dummy. What is it anyway?

I don't sit here and criticise your beloved Trainz Wiki, or your personal site, but it may pay you to sometimes look in your own backyard?

 

[martinvk]

Need to me means cannot do without.

On that criteria you have to look at what the requirements are. Do all content creators wish to promote their content or do they just make it for their own pleasure and drop a copy on the DLS? I don't think there is a single answer. ...

Cheerio John

Just to let you all know that the above describes me very well. I made and make objects because I need them. Some are then shared on the DLS and at a dutch site for others to play with too, if they want them.

 

[American_Connections]

My needs+your needs

I agree with Martin in that many of my assets are things I need or at least wanted to build for Trainz, some I have done just from requests. But the biggest problem for me comes directly from Auran! Why make assets if they will not be usefull for users in future editions! Just the act of making existing conponents of the program unusable is the biggest mistake any business could ever make. Pretty much put a stop to my energy of making anything new for Auran! But for those that keep with the older versions that they like, outside sources seem to be alot better that what Auran presents anymore.

 

[johnwhelan]

Now, Now John, I think the prospect of long Canadian winter is starting to get at you:

Snippet: Is the Trainz Resources Directory reliable and actually contains links to everything you need to know?

Is anything that reliable? Who knows what you need to know? My crystal ball is a bit fogged up right now.

Snippet: Well I followed a link and got "Yahoo Sorry this page is not available." For research US yes it contains a fair bit of information.

Any chance you can share that dead link with me so I can fix it. It would seem that you didn't read my concerns about broken links on the home page.

Snippet: Routes - UK "There are no listings available in this category".

Just in case you didn't read the home page, here's a snippet about Routes:

Routes section to be removed
None of the route builders have shown any interest in displaying their work either, so that section gets the chop also.

Snippet: Ever looked here?http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showt...hlight=layouts

I have actually. It's the greatest load of mumbo-jumbo I've ever come across in my life. It looks like all the words fell out of an upturned truck. No wonder the server spat the dummy. What is it anyway?

I don't sit here and criticise your beloved Trainz Wiki, or your personal site, but it may pay you to sometimes look in your own backyard?

The snow hasn't landed yet.

It appears you have an issue with keeping things updated as I suspected you would. I play with UK stuff mainly so went to UK steam loco plans. That is where the Yahoo dead link turned up.

The thread on UK layouts has some 200 layouts listed by name that are on the DLS. Scroll downpast the first screen and they are simply listed in alphabetical order. So for UK layouts just drop the link in I update the thread from time to time.

wikibook Trainz is not just me, I think some one else started it and there are a few others who add to it and amend it. In fact it might be a good place to hold what you are trying to do. That would allow others to keep it updated. I agree it could do with reorganisation if only to get a bit of consistency in it but it works reasonably well.

My personal web site well its a group one really that gets added to from time to time. I think we simply accept we don't have the resources to clean it up so we just add a bit more in from time to time.

Cheerio John

 

[martinvk]

... the biggest problem for me comes directly from Auran! Why make assets if they will not be usefull for users in future editions!

The only way to guarantee it will always work is to never correct past mistakes in the program and never add anything which conflicts with old functions. In other words, stop improving. I don't think that is a very viable thing for Auran to do if they want to stay in business.

But even that is not an issue if you stay with an older version of Trainz. If you never upgrade, all of your existing objects will continue to work just like the day they were made for as long as you want. Of course you won't have any new functions or objects that use them either.

... for those that keep with the older versions that they like, outside sources seem to be alot better that what Auran presents anymore.

?? The DLS still contains lots of older version objects, some even say too many. :hehe:

 

[Johnk]

Snippet: It appears you have an issue with keeping things updated as I suspected you would. I play with UK stuff mainly so went to UK steam loco plans. That is where the Yahoo dead link turned up.

I have this old saying: If you don't vote, don't blame the government! To put that into context, If you can't be bothered reporting a dead link, then don't complain! As far as keeping things updated go, take a look at the phone book - any phone book. It's a bit hard to keep things updated when a web site owner decides to shift a few pages around to make life easier for himself. Little does he realise that hundreds of search engines now have dead links, dozens of Trainz Community web pages have dead links, and my directory also develops dead links.So who do you blame? The web site owner or those out there trying to help him? Why blame one person when you can blame hundreds?

Now that you've bought me slightly closer to the problem page, I will try to rectify it. In the meantime, I will still direct people to your beloved WIKI, despite you having little or no confidence in the Trainz Resources Directory.
------------------
Edit: There were three listings for a Trainz Community web site called Content Creation Resources which was hosted by Geocities. The owner has obviously pulled the pin without letting anyone know, but he may pop up again. I accept that as being the norm around here, so I'm not getting stressed out about it. Geocities is closing down shortly, which means dozens of sites will eventually disappear for a while, or for good. In the meantime, all references to that site have been removed from the directory.

If you want to know about dead links, there's a site called Hotscripts which lists all the PHP scripts available out there. This is a professionally run site with dozens of staff, yet almost half the links to the scripts are dead. Reason: People move on and just plain forget to let others know. Even professionals who make a living selling their scripts forget.

 

[johnwhelan]

I think the thing that grates is the tag line

"Trainz Resources Directory - Everything for the Trainz Modeller."

Basically it isn't, there are some useful links but there are some big holes to be filled before it actually is everything for the Trainz modeler. It seems to be especially weak for people interested in the UK. I suspect that other countries such as Poland, Russia maybe under represented as well.

Modify the tag line and I'd be a lot happier.

Cheerio John

 

[Johnk]

You really have to be kidding me! I've never heard so much garbage in all my life. Any chance you can leave this thread and go peddle your wares somewhere else?

Alternatively A.J, or Zec, can you please close the thread and give us all a break from this nonsense.

 

[jrfolco]

I think the thing that grates is the tag line

"Trainz Resources Directory - Everything for the Trainz Modeller."

Basically it isn't, there are some useful links but there are some big holes to be filled before it actually is everything for the Trainz modeler. It seems to be especially weak for people interested in the UK. I suspect that other countries such as Poland, Russia maybe under represented as well.

Modify the tag line and I'd be a lot happier.

Cheerio John

My interpretation of "Trainz Resources Directory - Everything for the Trainz Modeller." is that everything contained in that site is for the Trainz Modeller. It seems obvious to me.

 

[mawilson]

johnwhelan - I resurrected the Trainz wikibook in the interest of gathering methods beyond the "which button to click" approach of the manual. Then life caught up to me and I wasn't able to contribute as much as I had hoped. Contributing/editing is still on my to do list.

We have to be careful about what we put in the wikibook or at least how we label it. The only way we could get away with adding a catalog of assets would be to call it an appendix.

On the topic of an asset catalog: The idea of a wiki is quite good. I could envision a collection of templated wiki pages each describing an asset and using catagories to assist in cataloging. Mediawiki has some interesting capabilities we may be able to exploit including fairly easy to build extensions. The other nice thing is that storing data in a database and serving it dynamically is fairly easy on server resources. Wikipedia runs on Mediawiki so scalability is not an issue.

Regardless of engine, this would require a community (authors and users) effort to create and maintain. I think it would be a great idea as long as it had better cataloging than the DLS. Given the nearly unsearchable condition of DLS thanks to poor to non-existant metadata standards, that wouldn't be all that difficult.

 

[martinvk]

I think the thing that grates is the tag line

"Trainz Resources Directory - Everything for the Trainz Modeller."

... It seems to be especially weak for people interested in the UK. I suspect that other countries such as Poland, Russia maybe under represented as well.

...
Cheerio John

Just about every area of the world where there are real trains is under represented except for a few minor exceptions. That's just an incentive for content creators to get to work to fill in the gaps and not a excuse for people to complain that their area of interest isn't as full as they want it.

 

[Johnk]

Just about every area of the world where there are real trains is under represented except for a few minor exceptions. That's just an incentive for content creators to get to work to fill in the gaps and not a excuse for people to complain that their area of interest isn't as full as they want it.

Any web site, be it the Wiki, Directory or the DLS is only as good as its contributors. Where would the DLS be if nobody contributed? Also, compared with today, how far advanced were the Wiki and DLS six months after they were started? I think the Directory has come a long way in 6 months. Although I'd love to see more contributors now, the day will eventually come when I won't be able to handle the rush.

But this thread isn't meant to be about the benefits of the directory or lack thereof, it's a question as to whether an independent Registry is feasible to overcome many of the issues encountered at the DLS.

A user contributed site as Mark Wilson suggests would be the perfect answer if it was a perfect world. Unfortunately it isn't. Without a bullet-proof templating system, image resizer and spell checker, the site could, and probably would crumble into an unusable mess very quickly. How do you think this forum would go for example, if you took away the moderators and rude word blocker? It would be chaos.

Going back to my site for a moment, all a contributor has to do is send me a few photos, some text they may have used elsewhere and a few links. I do all the hard work. A similar appraoch would be required for the Registry or it would be doomed from the outset.

Such a project would need a team of volunteers, but not a big team.