CSX WANTS THEIR MONEY FROM YOU!!!

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amrail2000

GONE AND FORGOTTEN
As of today I have stopped work on all routes that bear the CSX name. Why? Because they want a license fee for this. Yep you read that correctly. CSX wants a license fee for anything that bears their name. It's does not matter if you make money off it or give it away. Your using their name and they want to be paid. How do I know this. I invited them to swing by my site. Little did I know that I was inviting the wolves to come for a visit. The thank you I got from CSX went some thing like this (quoted from e-mail I got from CSXT)

"With regard another equally important issue, I checked your website and find we need to address two concerns. First, I find that you are not currently licensed to depict CSX owned trademarks on your site. I have attached a trademark license agreement that we require in order to use these owned marks. Once you have reviewed the agreement, please complete, sign and return it to my attention. Second, I find that you have a live link to our CSX.com website. CSX would asks that you remove this link from your site."

Now with respect to our younger members here I'm going to refrain from using any harsh language, but trust me I am not happy. My entire house is decorate with CSX items. I have every CSX locomotive that Jointed Rail makes. In fact I'm waiting for JR to make more. Well I was. I have always supported CSX and it even says so on my site. Further I am not making any money of their name. Now if they are wanting any money for me posting in game screen shots of their locomotives then they are crazy. Here's what I do know. I now have a long form License Agreement on my computer that I had to sign. The fees for the license can really add up and quick.

I know some of you will want to throw the smite button into overdrive, but come on. I'm showing in game screen shots. The same as any one here. And know I'm expected to pay a license fee. Am I missing something here??? I just don't know guys. I just wanted to have fun at no ones expense. Yet it appears that some don't feel the same. At this point I'm ready to dump everything I have that has anything to do with CSX and go TOTAL SAXT. At least then I know I won't sue myself.
 
I recommend you read up on the issues of Trademark law vs. Fan-art, it seems you are bounding down this path.... Its a real issue that everyone is facing these days regardless of whether you realize it or not. Surely we have some legal ground to stand on, but its obvious corporations have done a good job hiding said ground under the money they like to throw at these types off issues to make examples of them. :o

Fortunately UP has gone the way of railfan-friendly railroads. While they still ask for an agreement for sale of their brand, they have little to no concern over fanart and models:
http://www.uprr.com/aboutup/licensing/index.shtml

I do not think your site will be even a dot on the CSX trademark infringement radar, but all the same, I hope they drop any further email communication with you...

cheers
 
Now let's don't go ballistic...

:cool: I read where "The fees for the license can really add up and quick."

I have not read a price, however.

You simply pushed the project too far into view of CSXT. You sending the request for review forced the copyright owner to put you on their "Properly Recognized" database.

That is not a mistake...you also wanted an endorsement from them, whether by privilege or profit, and so you tied into the legal aspect of doing business.

Do not feature the route as being specific to any corporation. Use the location of the route as a name, for example...

I have a thumbnail for a route that uses every road and the utilities that made the route, I now see that is not a good idea, though the $screenshot$ turned out well.

What does it take to obtain authorization...how much $?

It may be just a simple matter of signing and faxing the document and your done, or if you feature something in opposition to their intentions that will come forth also.

Copyright is just that...your copy, their right.
 
Gee what a wunch of bankers :o
Only one thing to do in these cases..
Make your own bloomin company!
For over 12 years I have *owned the butt kicking online car racing company
Mo.Fo Engine Co :eek:
Which DOES NOT, (of course), refer to any sort of modern day street slang, as the full name is Moto Fortuna Engine Company :cool: :hehe:
These cars, (which aren't really all that famous, but they are known worldwide), are distinguished by their gloss black paint, outrageous flame jobs,
50 cal bullet holes blown in the side, a custom gold skull & wings logo and various other fave company logos. (mainly music production or racing related).
It's great fun!!!!
 
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I would have never invited them to your site. You're just asking for trouble.

Just because we enjoy the hobby doesn't mean they do. What would make you think someone would enjoy your site just because they work at CSX. Most of the people that work there view us as a nuisance and pests. It's just a job with a dreaded daily grind to them. The friends I have that work at the railroad complain about their job regularly and can't even begin to understand what hell is wrong with us foamers. I don't mean to be cruel but I think this is reality.

We have to be smart and think twice before sharing any of our work with railroad employees.
 
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amrail2000 said:
Why? Because they want a license fee for this.

...

"I have attached a trademark license agreement that we require in order to use these owned marks. Once you have reviewed the agreement, please complete, sign and return it to my attention."
Click to expand...


You most likely just overlooked mentioning it, but.. they did actually ask for a fee, right? Because if they just want you to agree not to abuse their mark, then I'm not sure why that's a lot to ask- although they could certainly write a more friendly letter :)

chris
 
Ok guys here is what I got from CSX Transportation this morning after a rather long talk with their legal department. You guys ready for this. First if you so much as show a picture on your site, they require you to be licensed. The fees are based on your usage.

Now as for a few who posted here, you can say what you want but CSX and I go back to the days of the ACL (Atlantic Coast Line). Needless to say I am known in Jacksonville. So I didn't see where the problem was in showing them the site. I just didn't realize that my contact was no longer there. Now I know.

So here is what came about. Southern Atlantic Transportation (SAXT) is now officially licensed to carry, display and use the CSX Transportation mark and those it's predecessors. I am not going to go into full details of what took place, but let's just SAXT won this round. And on that note it's back work the CSX GREAT LAKES DIVISION route.
Run Eight
SAXT1
Owner Southern Atlantic Transportation
 
amrail2000 said:
Ok guys here is what I got from CSX Transportation this morning after a rather long talk with their legal department. You guys ready for this. First if you so much as show a picture on your site, they require you to be licensed. The fees are based on your usage.

Now as for a few who posted here, you can say what you want but CSX and I go back to the days of the ACL (Atlantic Coast Line). Needless to say I am known in Jacksonville. So I didn't see where the problem was in showing them the site. I just didn't realize that my contact was no longer there. Now I know.

So here is what came about. Southern Atlantic Transportation (SAXT) is now officially licensed to carry, display and use the CSX Transportation mark and those it's predecessors. I am not going to go into full details of what took place, but let's just SAXT won this round. And on that note it's back work the CSX GREAT LAKES DIVISION route.
Run Eight
SAXT1
Owner Southern Atlantic Transportation
Click to expand...

I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm jaded because I've had some bad experiences with railroad employees in the past.

It's just the vast majority of railroad employees could care less about rail fanning. It's just a job for most of them. Doesn't mean they're bad people they just don't understand or care about our hobby.
 
Sounds great...

:cool: Thanks for your information, I'll definitely put a note to CSXT.

Just think...you are authorized by CSXT to within the limits of your agreement...and you can so carry an acknowledgement on your website, as well in the Route Folder!

That covers authorization for a whole lot of fallen flags...:wave:
 
backyard said:
:cool: Thanks for your information, I'll definitely put a note to CSXT.

Just think...you are authorized by CSXT to within the limits of your agreement...and you can so carry an acknowledgement on your website, as well in the Route Folder!

That covers authorization for a whole lot of fallen flags...:wave:
Click to expand...
Allen I am so glad that you mentioned that(you can so carry an acknowledgement on your website, as well in the Route Folder!). I didn't even think about it. Even though some call this a minor win, it is still a win.
 
dricketts said:
I understand where you're coming from and maybe I'm jaded because I've had some bad experiences with railroad employees in the past.

It's just the vast majority of railroad employees could care less about rail fanning. It's just a job for most of them. Doesn't mean they're bad people they just don't understand or care about our hobby.
Click to expand...

The problem is more with the upper ranks, those people arnt railroaders, most of them dont have any more experience with trains than the average guys that get stuck at a crossing. They are just bankers and attorneys that have no interest in railroading or its history. Alot of the actual train crews are much more friendly, many of them will even take the time to talk to you at the end of their run, I've had a few ask me about model trains.
 
dricketts said:
I would have never invited them to your site. You're just asking for trouble.

Just because we enjoy the hobby doesn't mean they do. What would make you think someone would enjoy your site just because they work at CSX. Most of the people that work there view us as a nuisance and pests. It's just a job with a dreaded daily grind to them. The friends I have that work at the railroad complain about their job regularly and can't even begin to understand what hell is wrong with us foamers. I don't mean to be cruel but I think this is reality.

We have to be smart and think twice before sharing any of our work with railroad employees.
Click to expand...

Your right, to them it is just a job. There are very few ways to profit off railfans, the only things I can think of are licensing models either virtual or real and allowing books to be written about them.
 
Shame really. What kid doesn't grow up with a train set?
I understand the upper management and copywrite thing fully. It just seems railroads are missing out on a golden opportunity to promote themselves through the various railroad hobbies. It costs nothing to them to allow hobbyists enjoy a past time and foster a new generation of possible railroad workers and supporters, especially since railroads and government funds are tied together.

Railfans, I can understand. They do put themselves in a position to get themselves hurt and cause a railroad a lot of money through lawsuits. A more positive and active role with railfans would eliminate a lot of that, though. I like what BNSF did with railfans who had a way to contact them when they saw something wrong on the right of way.

I guess a few bucks is more important to the bean counters than growing a large support base.

Dave......
 
Hello Amrail,

You should realize this has nothing to do with copyright, it has to do with CSX's trademark, which is an entirely different thing. If CSX does not aggressively protect its trademark, then it will quickly and easily become generic, and anyone will be able to use it. It doesn't matter if you or other rail fans make money on it or not. Ever own a thermos? Well, "Thermos" used to be a trademark, and they lost it because they allowed it to be used as a generic name for a vacuum bottle.

Admittedly, UPs approach makes more sense, and it sounds as if CSX may be headed in the same direction, but it is hard to blame them for their position. The real culprit is Congress, which should have written an exception in the law for modellers who do not try to make money using the mark.

Bernie
 
I would abide by their wishes by faxing back the documents and be done with it.

The reason why they're doing this is to ensure that their artwork, which is protected by copyright, is used in a proper manner and with permission.

Having worked in the graphics industry, I've seen humungous books on how not to use a corporate logo! They go on and on depicting every possible and impossible way how not place the bloody thing where a simple sentence is all that is needed to show how to use it!

John
 
I find amazing just how many closet lawyers we have here. Yes they have to protect their image same as I have protect mine. I fully understand where CSX and any other company is coming from. But here's one thing none of here are aware of. If you so much as display any companies logo or image on your site you have to a license issued by that company to do so. Now I wonder how many of you have said license? I have done things the right way. I am also able to the CSX mark and the marks of the companies that make up CSX.

Also if CSX should ever ask, I'll be more than happy to work with them. Yes it just a job to most of them. But I wonder how many here could do that same job. I also wonder how many here have to 500 water street in Jacksonville. I have maintained a very good relationship with CSX since I was born. Now you guys can gripe moan and groan all you want. But it my desire to continue to maintain that good relationship. I also wonder how many of can pick up the phone and talk to anyone inside CSX or any other company.

There is difference between just being the fan that stands by the tracks and some one who really appreciates what it takes to move that train car from point a to point b. Face it guys. From day one, the rail transport industry from day has been a hard business. And that's exactly what it is, a business. Fight with them if you want. But you'll do alone.
As far as am I concerned this matter is closed.
 
WindWalkr said:
You most likely just overlooked mentioning it, but.. they did actually ask for a fee, right? Because if they just want you to agree not to abuse their mark, then I'm not sure why that's a lot to ask- although they could certainly write a more friendly letter :)

chris
Click to expand...

Has any one contacted them about the four dozen or so models on the DLS that appear to use their CSX name and confirmed they are comfortable with these being "referenced" by payware routes?

Cheerio John
 
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