Crossrail on time on Budget…But

Hi everybody.
For any forum members may wish to have more information on the construction of crossrail there is a video available on YouTube which gives an in-depth insight into the construction of the tunnel section of the project which is being carried out under central London.

Made by the BBC entitled “ fifteen billion pound railway, urban open-heart surgery” and it is available at this URL address: - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITcQMiJkppM

The video is 58 minutes long, so be prepared to settle down, forget the Trainz route building for an hour to concentrate on how this enormous route building project is happening in real life. What I enjoyed where the interviews with the construction workers handling the one thousand ton tunnel boring machines under central London while the city Continues to work, shop, go sightseeing and commute above their heads

Also of great interest is the navigation of the tunnel as it is being bored which has to miss the 11 other London Underground routes along with the sewers, electric cables, gas mains and all the other underground infrastructure that makes a modern city tick.

The sense of humour of the workers is also highly enjoyable especially when you realise the stress they are under at times trying not to disturb the running of the city while getting the job done. I especially enjoyed the one of a station construction foreman sweating profusely after climbing down from the gibe of a huge mobile crane and states to the camera “that was a lot easier when I was 10 years younger and two stone lighter.

Whatever anyone feels regarding the financing of this project, no one can argue with the engineering skills and dedication of those involved in this construction

Great stuff
Bill
 
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Thank you for posting the video, Bill. I've been following the project but I haven't seen this video yet. :)

John
 
Hi everybody.

pfx said:
Bill, I'd imagine you saw all three episodes? Fantastic viewing.
Click to expand...

Pfx, I have not seen the other two videos, but I am hoping to find time to relax settle down in the next few days and enjoy those two others. I cannot see the URLs for them on Youtube and they seem to have been deleted from BBC iPlayer. Therefore could you pfx or some other forum member please post the URLs for the two other productions in the series for me and other forum members to enjoy.

After watching the first video and with my background in industrial safety I have been contemplating just what it must be like to be the overall operational safety director on the crossrail project. Surely he/she does not spend much time behind any desk. The responsibility must be enormous with new problems every day if not every hour needing on the spot attention both above and below ground.

But what a challenge, keeping accidents and incidents the lowest possible level amongst the workforce as well as ensuring that all those shopping, working, sightseeing above your head and also those commuting through the existing London Underground are safe and unaffected by the construction.

Ah, surely it’s the job I was born to have………….. but, I can dream……….. I can dream.:)

Bill
 
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With the sad ecline of rail over the pond over the decades John any positive news is good to hear! I know of course the arguments of a big country, motorways, wide use of cars, etc. However on my two visits to the country years ago I mad a point of travelling by train and found it as you said far more comfortable and enjoyable. You can see places in that comfort zone and go for a walk in the train, have a snack or meal, etc.

Okay we are a much smaller nation and car ownership has rocketed too over the years and new motorway needed but even allowing for the differences rail travel here is at it's peak and still growing. The Scottish Borders area south of Edinburgh to roughly southeast one had a network long gone except for the East Coast main line but the planned re-opening of part of what was the main line is being presently re-laid between Edinburgh and just beyond Galashiels. It is on time and still within budget and due to re-open with a good service in 2015. Some down there are even arguing for the re-opening to continue diagoally across country as it also did to Carlise line but i am not so convinced that wil happen! However it was the good people of the area that fought for years to get the railway - over 30 miles back and led by a feisty lady who is in her Autumn years but advised the others to do as they did as far as Galashiels and to go beyond!

With over 6 billion passengers a year in Great Britain ow and still rising it is important to keep all options opened. not just modernising lines but re-openng. As I indicated a time ago here the ones opened up here in the north of the Kingdom have broken targets and basically due to that matter of population shifting which has changed many places. Meeting that magazine editor years ago who had retired and had been with the old Pennsylvania RR was fascinating and being invited to stay with them for 2 days on my next trip to the ex-colonies (!) gave more time for rail chats! I could even tell him I had seen his name in my ancient copy of the National Assoc of RR's. If you can't get another service opened just do it on Trainz! :)
 
Let's just check those infrastructure developments in 'Great Britain' paid for by taxpayers across this sceptered isle over the last 30 years shall we?

  1. Jubilee Line extension - £2 billion in the early '90s to provide a tube line for the white elephant Canary Wharf development (and not to the population centres of south-east London where it was originally proposed to go).
  3. Crossrail - £15 billion to enable bankers to speed from their mansions in Buckinghamshire to their offices in the City of London in super-fast time.
  5. HS2 - £50 billion to allow businessmen to travel at 200mph between their offices in London and Birmingham.

Meanwhile in South London, where there have been no new tube lines* in over 40 years, it takes an hour on an overcrowded bus to go five miles from west to east and the trains are so overcrowded they'd be condemned if they were carrying cattle. And on the occasions when I have the misfortune to travel home to visit family in North East Lincolnshire, I am forced to to travel on a two coach Trans-Pennine 'Express' train, from which catering was removed long ago, which is already jam packed full when it arrives at Doncaster. But apparently there isn't enough money to provide three coach trains. Why would there be? Doncaster doesn't serve the City of London, does it?

Pardon my cynicism!

Paul

* Correction: the Mayor of London has somehow managed to find £1.5 billion to pay for a two mile extension of the Northern Line down to the exclusive Battersea Power Station luxury apartment development (Yeah, I'm sure those Russian oligarchs and Saudi Arabian princes are going to be really grateful for their own dedicated tube line.) Meanwhile, the southern extension of the Bakerloo Line to Camberwell and Peckham has been postponed, yet again, to at least 2020.
 
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Paulsw2 said:
Let's just check those infrastructure developments in 'Great Britain' paid for by taxpayers across this sceptered isle over the last 30 years shall we?

  1. Jubilee Line extension - £2 billion in the early '90s to provide a tube line for the white elephant Canary Wharf development (and not to the population centres of south-east London where it was originally proposed to go).
  2. Crossrail - £15 billion to enable bankers to speed from their mansions in Buckinghamshire to their offices in the City of London in super-fast time.
  3. HS2 - £50 billion to allow businessmen to travel at 200mph between their offices in London and Birmingham.

Meanwhile in South London, where there have been no new tube lines* in over 40 years, it takes an hour on an overcrowded bus to go five miles from west to east and the trains are so overcrowded they'd be condemned if they were carrying cattle. And on the occasions when I have the misfortune to travel home to visit family in North East Lincolnshire, I am forced to to travel on a two coach Trans-Pennine 'Express' train, from which catering was removed long ago, which is already jam packed full when it arrives at Doncaster. But apparently there isn't enough money to provide three coach trains. Why would there be? Doncaster doesn't serve the City of London, does it?

Pardon my cynicism!

Paul

* Correction: the Mayor of London has somehow managed to find £1.5 billion to pay for a two mile extension of the Northern Line down to the exclusive Battersea Power Station luxury apartment development (Yeah, I'm sure those Russian oligarchs and Saudi Arabian princes are going to be really grateful for their own dedicated tube line.) Meanwhile, the southern extension of the Bakerloo Line to Camberwell and Peckham has been postponed, yet again, to at least 2020.
Click to expand...


This sounds like the MBTA in Boston. They removed the tram *trolley" lines to Forest Hills, and the EL through the poor neighborhoods in Dorchester and Roxbury. On the Northside, the EL served the working neighborhoods of the surrounding cities of Everett, Somerville, and Malden. The old EL was quite busy and served the people well. Instead the new Orange line now runs to mucky-muck Forrest Hills directly as it bypasses the poorer areas. On the Northside, the line doesn't even go near Everett, and stays in the more effluent neighborhoods in Medford, which used to be lower income working at one time.

The old tram Arborway line was fought against very, very hard by all the Yuppies and NIMBYs that moved into the area. They didn't want the noise and traffic the trams may cause. The "T" sided with them, since the then director was pro-bus anyway, and the tracks have now been ripped up or tarred over with no hopes of trolleys running on the Arborway again.

The end result is the people were promised replacement service, which was supposed to be a new tram line. Instead they got overcrowded and always late running buses, but the Yuppies get their direct service on the new Orange line which runs way too far away from the people that would need it.
 
Paulsw2 said:
Meanwhile in South London, where there have been no new tube lines* in over 40 years, it takes an hour on an overcrowded bus to go five miles from west to east and the trains are so overcrowded they'd be condemned if they were carrying cattle. And on the occasions when I have the misfortune to travel home to visit family in North East Lincolnshire, I am forced to to travel on a two coach Trans-Pennine 'Express' train, from which catering was removed long ago, which is already jam packed full when it arrives at Doncaster. But apparently there isn't enough money to provide three coach trains. Why would there be? Doncaster doesn't serve the City of London, does it?

Pardon my cynicism!

Paul

* Correction: the Mayor of London has somehow managed to find £1.5 billion to pay for a two mile extension of the Northern Line down to the exclusive Battersea Power Station luxury apartment development (Yeah, I'm sure those Russian oligarchs and Saudi Arabian princes are going to be really grateful for their own dedicated tube line.) Meanwhile, the southern extension of the Bakerloo Line to Camberwell and Peckham has been postponed, yet again, to at least 2020.
Click to expand...

Also, the Jubilee extension line runs south of the river for part of its length, the Dockland Light Railway has crept south of the river and the East London line has linked up to Clapham Junction. There has also been a programme of platform lengthening on the Brighton line to allow longer and newer trains to operate. To try to pretend there has been no investment in rail transport in South London is being economical with the truth.
 
amigacooke said:
Also, the Jubilee extension line runs south of the river for part of its length, the Dockland Light Railway has crept south of the river and the East London line has linked up to Clapham Junction. There has also been a programme of platform lengthening on the Brighton line to allow longer and newer trains to operate. To try to pretend there has been no investment in rail transport in South London is being economical with the truth.
Click to expand...

We could probably say that the investment per capita is lower though.

Cheerio John
 
Hi everybody.
First can I thank John Citroen for posting the URLs for the crossrail project which I hope to view in the next couple of days if I can get some time off.

I believe the postings by pfx and Paul demonstrated the frustration felt by many with regard to the amount of rail investment expenditure perceived as “lavished” on London and the south-east region to the detriment of many other regional rail projects that are seen as urgently needed.

In the foregoing, I would be the first to agree that Britain is over centralised with regard to its capital city seemingly being out of balance economically with the rest of the United Kingdom. However, no one can belittle the achievement of London in becoming the world’s leading finance centre and in that creating many thousands of jobs in the city. London has also become one of the world’s leading tourist centres with 19 million visitors expected in the capital by the end of 2014. The foregoing if achieved will put it above Rome which for years has been the world’s top tourist venue.

I believe London has a resident population of eight and a half million, but that trebles on each working day with an influx of another 16 million who arrive for work in the finance, retail and tourist industries. There are also many like myself who arrive regularly for seminars, training sessions and meetings with customers many of whom have their main offices situated in London. That stated, there can be little wonder that London has become out of balance economically with the rest of the country.

There is an old saying in Britain which states “you are where you are”. We can all argue whether London should have been allowed to have such a concentration of jobs and wealth, but it has happened and no one can turn the clock back. That is why I still support crossrail, as many using the new system will be those travelling from outside the capital for their jobs and buisness in London. Those I see the boarding the trains at Reading and other such stations are not the Russian oligarchs or the highflying top bankers, they are almost all middle management and backroom staff on average salaries for the above mentioned industries. Those people/passengers undoubtedly deserve a better rail service than the cattle class conditions they receive from the likes of first great Western and transport for London at present.

What the United Kingdom has to ensure is that future growth is spread evenly across the country and to the benefit of everyone. Therefore I would say no to HS2 and see it cancelled tomorrow. The £200 billion saved for the entire project should then be spent across the whole of network rail so (as rjhowie stated) many other regions can have the benefit of better rail services which the British public have demonstrated by the ever-increasing passenger numbers they feel they need.

Bill
 
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wholbr said:
The £200 billion saved for the entire project should then be spent across the whole of network rail so (as rjhowie stated) many other regions can have the benefit of better rail services which the British public have demonstrated by the ever-increasing passenger numbers they feel they need.
Click to expand...

There seems to be a discrepancy in projected costs.

http://www.hs2.org.uk/about-hs2/facts-figures/route-trains-cost

"Costs:

  • The target price for delivering Phase One of HS2 is £17.16 billion pounds (2011 prices). This is the base price of our latest estimate of the cost of Phase One, £15.6bn, plus a contingency allowance of 10%, and also takes into account the design and environmental changes to improve the scheme, many of which were set out in the design refinement consultation that we launched in May 2013
  • Overall funding for Phase One has been set at £21.4 billion , including contingency of around £5.7bn. We would expect the level of contingency to reduce over time.
  • Overall funding for Phase Two has been set at £21.2 billion , including contingency of £8.7bn which, as with Phase One, we would expect to reduce over time.
  • The total for the route is therefore £42.6 billion, including £14.4 billion of contingency.
  • While we expect the final costs to be lower, this is the right way to plan and secure the project at what is still an early stage.
  • Rolling stock costs (the cost of the trains themselves) are currently estimated at £7.5bn, including £1.7bn of contingency
  • Over the period of construction the cost of HS2 will be less than 0.15% of GDP.

New conventional lines would not be significantly cheaper than new high speed lines, nor would the impact on communities or the environment. Regardless of the speed of the new line, similar tracks, viaducts, stations and tunnels would be needed – but a slower line would attract fewer passengers, have fewer wider benefits and generate less revenue.

As with all major projects, the Government will continue to keep the value for money of HS2 under review. As a next step, an update of the economic case for HS2 will be published alongside the consultation on Phase Two preferred options in 2013."
 
Hi everybody
Amigacooke, I accept that the costings for HS2 which you posted at#33 are at present the official government figures for the project which were compiled by the Westminster appointed agents KPMG. However, KPMGs chairman appeared recently before the House of Commons select transport committee where he was closely questioned regarding how his company compiled the cost quote for the HS2 project.

KPMG advised it was difficult to give specific costs for the second phase of the project (Birmingham to Manchester) as the start date was some distance into the future. He was then questioned closely regarding the first phase of the project (London to Birmingham) especially regarding the cost of purchasing land and major engineering constructions such as bridges and tunnels etc . KPMG’s chairman appeared vague on answers to many questions especially on how they had arrived at their total for the first phase. At the close of questions when asked if he still stood by the costings for the first phase, KPMGs chairman replied that they were “possibly a little on the low side” (LOL)

Following the KPMGs appearance before the transport committee several media operators commissioned other companies to carry out surveys for the high-speed project on their behalf. It was then that the 200 billion figure was quoted for the whole project between London and Edinburgh which has been so widely quoted in the British press.

It has often been said that figures can be made to prove anything, and doubtless we could argue on this thread until N3V ran out of server space regarding costs. However, what the HS2 argument is really about is the more even distribution of infrastructure spending throughout the country especially rail. As it stands at the moment, London will have its 250mph rail link on which will take approximately 49 minutes to travel the 125 miles to Birmingham. At the same time Cornwall will continue to have its sole rail link between Penzance and Plymouth on which it can take nearly two hours to travel the 70 miles on what is supposedly an HST service.

The above is what this argument is really about, it is what the Scottish independence vote is really about, and Westminster must wake up to it if other regions of the country are not to demand greater autonomy or even separation from this so called United Kingdom.

Bill
 
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wholbr said:
As it stands at the moment, London will have its 250mph rail link on which will take approximately 49 minutes to travel the 125 miles to Birmingham. At the same time Cornwall will continue to have its sole rail link between Penzance and Plymouth on which it can take nearly two hours to travel the 70 miles on what is supposedly an HST service.
Click to expand...
Are you suggesting:

  • that the number of passengers wishing to travel from London to Birmingham is comparable to the number wishing to travel from Plymouth to Penzance?
  • that the terrain the line has to cross in Cornwall is no more difficult than the terrain between London and Birmingham?
 
amigacooke said:
Are you suggesting:

  • that the number of passengers wishing to travel from London to Birmingham is comparable to the number wishing to travel from Plymouth to Penzance?
  • that the terrain the line has to cross in Cornwall is no more difficult than the terrain between London and Birmingham?
Click to expand...

Why would anyone wish to travel to Birmingham? Penzance I can understand.

What we need is high speed rail from Cardiff to Manchester, then we can sell a few more Rugby Football tickets.

Luv Karen
 
Hi Everybody
Karen, love the humour in your posting and it has to be said (with the greatest of respect to Birmingham residents) that whichever way you approach Birmingham either by rail or by road it simply looks “awful”. The truth is that the city has never recovered since some “twat” in the late 1960s decided to build the junction of the M1, M6 and M5 motorways right in the centre of the city. It is difficult to believe these days that at one time it was quite a beautiful city.

Bill
 
amigacooke said:
Are you suggesting:
that the number of passengers wishing to travel from London to Birmingham is comparable to the number wishing to travel from Plymouth to Penzance?
that the terrain the line has to cross in Cornwall is no more difficult than the terrain between London and Birmingham?
Click to expand...

Amigacooke, obviously there are less people/passengers wishing to use the rail service between Penzance Plymouth than there are using the Birmingham to London services. More importantly the percentage per head of Cornish residents using the Penzance to Plymouth rail service is also far lower than the residents of Birmingham or London using that line. What you have to ask yourself based on those figures is why?

The answer to the above is straightforward, low wages, unemployment and deprivation mean that the need to travel by rail or road outside of the County is far less for Cornish residents unless like many younger people you leave the county of your birth for good.

Cornwall of the early 1970s was thriving place with fishing, mining, farming and tourism bringing a good standard of living to the Cornish people. With the exception of tourism the above industries are either now non-existent or very much diminished and with it that standard of living. However, it can be argued that many counties and cities all faced similar problems by the late 1970s and early 80s but many of them have recovered to greater or lesser extent, but not Cornwall along with several other quite large areas of the United Kingdom.

Again the reason for the above is quite straight forward and can be stated in one word, transport. Road links into Cornwall are somewhat “strenuous” especially in winter with Exmoor and Dartmoor being natural obstacles. Rail links from the Midlands, London and the North of England are reasonable as far as Plymouth but very poor beyond that

As an example HST services from London Paddington can travel the 238 miles to Plymouth taking between three and three and a half hours with a maximum of six stops (not bad). The same train then takes two hours to travel the further 78 miles to Penzance making a minimum of 10 stops (ridiculous). The reason for the foregoing is that there are very limited regional or district services (DMU’s) scheduled on that section of the line and therefore the HST service has to carry out that function.

The Cornish residents have been informed on any number of occasions that there are insufficient passing places on the line and therefore the normal scheduling of HST, regional followed by district services cannot be operated. Network rail has also informed them that funding is not available to upgrade and install the passing loops even though with the existing dual line track it would only mean installing a number of points and upgrading the signalling.

With the foregoing poor transport structure in operation new industries and businesses fail to locate in the Cornish county as they do in other counties with similar poor transport infrastructure. That said, the taxation paid by Cornish people still goes towards crossrail and the planned HS2 giving that perceived wealthy region superb rail infrastructure while the people of Cornwall are denied simple changes to their rail infrastructure that would bring about dramatic changes to their standard of living.

It’s no wonder at the Cornish people are talking of demanding far greater autonomy or even separation from the rest of the United Kingdom along with several other regions.

Bill
 
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amigacooke said:
Also, the Jubilee extension line runs south of the river for part of its length, the Dockland Light Railway has crept south of the river and the East London line has linked up to Clapham Junction. There has also been a programme of platform lengthening on the Brighton line to allow longer and newer trains to operate. To try to pretend there has been no investment in rail transport in South London is being economical with the truth.
Click to expand...

South East London? The Jubilee Line extension dips into southern riverbank, DLR doesn't even really count and, as you say it's 'crept' south of the river and the ELL goes off to the west beyond New Cross to connect to Clapham Junc. Meanwhile, there's a whole city out there in Southwark, Lewisham, Greenwich, Bexley, plus the outer boroughs of Croydon and Bromley - we're talking about a couple of million people without a decent tube line between them!

Now, to add insult to injury, there's a proposal for a new Crossrail - the first connected Buckinghamshire to the City, Crossrail II will connect Surrey to the City (south-west to north-east). You couldn't make it up!

Paul
 
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