Contents illegally uploaded to the DLS - N3V Please take action!

[sniper297]

Too complicated. Would create more problems than it would solve, and as mentioned it would be too easy to work around, in fact a workaround would be the first thing people would look for when trying to solve a problem with an encrypted asset that doesn't work in a newer or older version. Or has an error that the error checker misses. Example;

Alco RS3,<kuid:52779:50001>

Built into TS2010, that was the default engine spec for all Alco RS1-2-3 and Alco RSD5 reskins. Worked fine, no idea why it was on the DLS foulup list, but the KUID2 replacement;

Alco RS3,<kuid2:52779:50001:1>

Does not work in CAB mode, you can only run in DCC mode. Solution to the problem was to clone the original then change all your reskins to use the cloned engine spec instead of the faulty KUID2 replacement. Make the cloning process more difficult all you accomplish is creating more problems for people trying to fix problems.

My opinion this is much ado about nothing, it really doesn't happen often enough to require draconian measures to stop it. The policy that N3V already has might not work fast enough to please frantic people looking for instant action, but it works.

 

[shaneturner12]

It may not be happening much at the moment, but there's no saying that that will always be the case. In addition to that, there's also the risk of N3V getting sued if a payware content creator finds that an item of theirs has been cloned.

Shane

 

[johnwhelan]

It may not be happening much at the moment, but there's no saying that that will always be the case. In addition to that, there's also the risk of N3V getting sued if a payware content creator finds that an item of theirs has been cloned.

Shane

The servers are in the US so I think the US law applies to them. Basically provided N3V remove the offending asset when they receive the correct notification they can't be sued. Same as You-Tube.

Cheerio John

 

[ish6]

Too complicated. Would create more problems than it would solve, and as mentioned it would be too easy to work around, in fact a workaround would be the first thing people would look for when trying to solve a problem with an encrypted asset that doesn't work in a newer or older version. Or has an error that the error checker misses. Example;

Alco RS3,<kuid:52779:50001>

Built into TS2010, that was the default engine spec for all Alco RS1-2-3 and Alco RSD5 reskins. Worked fine, no idea why it was on the DLS foulup list, but the KUID2 replacement;

Alco RS3,<kuid2:52779:50001:1>

Does not work in CAB mode, you can only run in DCC mode. Solution to the problem was to clone the original then change all your reskins to use the cloned engine spec instead of the faulty KUID2 replacement. Make the cloning process more difficult all you accomplish is creating more problems for people trying to fix problems.

My opinion this is much ado about nothing, it really doesn't happen often enough to require draconian measures to stop it. The policy that N3V already has might not work fast enough to please frantic people looking for instant action, but it works.

Hi,

Understood, however, Jan idea is just a first step, and Auran can always update and modified that idea as future products are release!

As for errors -- I feel this is Auran responsibility here --- in that, why do certain items work with T10 and not with T12? -- You can switch this around as well --- I say, check items with T12 requirements, and if it does not applied to the standards and requirements then reject the contents! Auran / N3V are always changing the rules on how CC are made, so just keep standardized to any current product at the time! --- error feel hopefully!!!

Ish

 

[Jananton]

Jan idea is just a first step, and Auran can always update and modified that idea as future products are release

Well, obviously there are ways to work around the original idea posted. The biggest problem of course is that one doesn't want to hamper the open architecture that exists for creating content. That would more or less be synonym to shooting in your own foot from N3V's point of view as well as for all creators of original content.
The first step though, making cloning much harder to use for uploading cloned assets created by others, but still keep the cloning process usable for one's own use, is just the first step to consider.

Greetings from nighttime Amsterdam,

Jan

 

[zatovisualworks]

This has happend to Zatovisualworks a while back,

Hi dear Ishie and the rest of trainzy friends over here.

I must confess I'm completely unaware of any problem with some of my humble contents. Just having a a complimentary New Year's visit to my once daily trainzy home and found this.

Even though being humble content, I'd like to state my position clear enough. I think that almost everybody knows my final denial to upload more content to the DLS due to the policy started by the NeverFailers when they took over Auran.

In the near past, some trainzers approached me privately via e-mail after having cloned or reskinned some of my contents (yes, humble but honest! :hehe: ) and I enthusiastically agreed except for the condition of not sending them to the DLS. IBTZ still exists and has a handy and illustrative downloading site -open, increasingly bilingual and available to everybody-.

If somebody cloned or reskinned some of my content and sent it to the DLS, it would be done without my knowing and consent. In fact, it would be against my wish. Legacy contents are there but no more stuff related to me will be.

If it is my case -which I don't really know- I'm not making any official claim to NeverFailers -some of them old trainzy fellows too-. Just I'll take my notes... lest my current peaceful state of mind gets not shifted to another less pleasant.

Making use of this thread, I'd like to express my affection to the old the great trainzy friend who still dwell over the place. As my dear friend Ishie says."Your Trainz mojo will be back some day". No doubt, dear Ishie, no doubt. Today is not that day...

You all, take care, please.

The crystal-clear side of Alberte (yes, I have this side too )

 

[William0d0]

I say we send this guy to their house.

 

[WindWalkr]

Pofig's trees seem to be a major target. I assume N3V either has or has access to a commercial license for speedtree, could some sort of arrangement be made with pofig so that his trees were run through the N3V commercial license and placed on the DLS?

This really depends on whether he wants to do that. If he does, then we have programs available for commercial partnerships. I can't promise anything- there are costs on our side in setting up any such partnership, so it depends on what is on offer and whether we can find a way to fit it into our own product direction- but it's well worth getting in contact if you're interested in this kind of thing. <trainzdev@auran.com>

kind regards,

chris

 

[sniper297]

Alberte, if someone sees what they think is an illegal clone of your content on the DLS, the procedure would be for them to send you an email. That's it, all anyone can do, you would have to take it from there and notify N3V that you think your copyright has been violated. If they find that to be true, all they can do is remove it from the DLS. N3V is a game developer, not a law enforcement agency.

My main objection to suggested attempts at pre-emptive strikes;

"Well, obviously there are ways to work around the original idea posted. The biggest problem of course is that one doesn't want to hamper the open architecture that exists for creating content."

There you go, whatever they do could be worked around and would only make everything more difficult for legit users. Example, Rail Simulator when it first came out had copyguard using an Electronic Arts manager for the download version and a key disk in the drive system for the disk version. The crack to remove the copyguard appeared on various warez websites a week BEFORE the game was released. That kind of crap only affects legitimate users, software pirates merely laugh at it.

 

[dricketts]

My opinion this is much ado about nothing, it really doesn't happen often enough to require draconian measures to stop it. The policy that N3V already has might not work fast enough to please frantic people looking for instant action, but it works.

Totally agree.

The servers are in the US so I think the US law applies to them. Basically provided N3V remove the offending asset when they receive the correct notification they can't be sued. Same as You-Tube.

Cheerio John

So true. They can't and won't be sued unless they completely ignore the original creator. Even then do you think any attorney or court would really take a Trainz freeware creator seriously? What kind of damages are you going to claim with freeware.

Im not saying its ethically right but it's how the real world works. There's no money to be made in freeware. Including the courts and attorneys.

 

[shaneturner12]

It wouldn't necessarily be a freeware creator though - it's likely to be a payware creator that would want to take action.

Shane

 

[ish6]

Hi All


Right now, the only viable method we see is to have the original author contact us, for us to look into it. And yes, it may take a little time for us to investigate and take action if required.

Regards

Hi Zec

And thanks for your post,etc ...

The issue with the author contacting you is that he or she might not even be involved in trainz anymore -- what about those items he or she have at the DLS?

I like Jan suggestion here which he posted about in this thread - below is a portion of his post:


Jan's post (just a portion)
What if each original created asset gets a non accessable encrypted kuidnumber as well the same as the one in the config.txt. Whenever an asset is cloned the original kuid stays encripted in the *.cdp easy to check when or if the clone is uploaded to the DLS.
Of course there are some restrictions that come with this idea. Each new asset created would have to be made initially with the CMP File / New... command to generate the encrypted kuid. Assets build from scratch would have an empty space where the encrypted number would be when imported by the CMP. Those would and should be rejected if uploaded to the DLS as well.


Something like this is a first step ---since we all need to use CMP+ for any content related items, an encrypted kuids can be implement or generated with each product, just like a serial number for each product is included -- Another way to look at it is one's prefix kuids --- that never changes unless one buys another trainz product, so why not use the same to protect contents in that manner! --- at least is a first step!!!

Permission with this system is easy -- for example, I ask Shane permission to reskin his rolling stock -- so I go forward and reskin, and upload --- upon the system checking the file Shane gets e-mail notifying hiM that his rolling stock is being uploaded as a rekin, etc (it would be require that cloned items include a secondary e-mail of that of the original creator, and that e-mail have to be the same e-mail that the original creator used when he or she registered his product with Auran / NV3) ... Shane ignores the e-mail, and the items goes through (a time frame could be 48hrs) -- But if I illegally reskin Shane's original works, and he takes action due to N3V e-mail notification then the item would never make it to the DLS!

And to make sure this doesn't get hacked each item uploaded must first run through CMP+!!


Thanks for reading!


Ish

 

[paulzmay]

Ish,

Unfortunately, I can't see how this would work, as there is nowhere I can see to hide this secret creator code. Encoding it in the CDP simply means that anyone passing off your work as their own just has to open in explorer, make their changes, and then re-import. Removing the ability to do this will have more effect on legitimate creators than on anyone else - beware cures that are worse than the disease!

Personally, I think that removal of uploading privileges (temporary for a first offence) is a better option.

Paul

 

[WindWalkr]

The issue with the author contacting you is that he or she might not even be involved in trainz anymore -- what about those items he or she have at the DLS?

Simply put, if the creator does not care, then we do not really care either. It's the creator's decision whether this form of uploading is a good thing or a bad thing. We're not going to make that call for them. If they think it's a good thing, then we don't have a problem. If they've lost interest to the point that they don't even know this is occurring then it might be technically a problem but it's hard to see how it's hurting anyone. If they actively think it's a problem then we've provided the necessary mechanisms for them to get it fixed up fairly quickly.

As somebody else said earlier, we are not a law enforcement body. If you believe your legal rights are being trampled over by some uploader, then it's your prerogative to sue them via your local court system. I don't recommend this in most cases, but that's your option.

From our perspective, if an original owner of a work requests us to take an illegal copy down, then we are legally and/or ethically obligated to do so, and we will comply as quickly as we reasonably can (obviously we need to check that the claim appears legitimate, and the appropriate staff need to be in the office, which can take a little time depending on when the request comes in.)

If you recognise some copying going on which you believe is not authorised, then I would encourage you to go to the original creator and make sure that they're aware of it, so that they can exercise their options. If you can't contact the creator, or if the creator doesn't care about said copying enough to do anything about it, then it's not your problem. In this case, before you continue to chase up on the issue, please remember you are not a law enforcement body either.

kind regards,

chris

 

[ish6]

I understand your points Chris, but your post is similiar to Zec in many regards!

My point with this thread is to make light of this issue, in which folks become more aware that it is a problem more now then ever, and most importantly, to discuss suggestions and ideas about it how to fix it -- no solution is perfect, but that does not mean we cannot try! If Auran really put their minds on how to stop people from uploading illegal stuff by reading some suggestions that are posted in this thread I bet it could make it hard for poeple stealing other folks -- You guys can come up other ideas in your daily meetings that can be in place in future trainz products, etc!!!

Also, what I meant, and I should have made that clear about those who are not inolved in trainz anymore, I was thinking of those creators who have passed away, etc ... there have no voice, except for those who knew them and are still here involved with trainz!

Thanks for reading!

Ish

 

[johnwhelan]

Simply put, if the creator does not care, then we do not really care either. It's the creator's decision whether this form of uploading is a good thing or a bad thing. We're not going to make that call for them. If they think it's a good thing, then we don't have a problem. If they've lost interest to the point that they don't even know this is occurring then it might be technically a problem but it's hard to see how it's hurting anyone. If they actively think it's a problem then we've provided the necessary mechanisms for them to get it fixed up fairly quickly.

As somebody else said earlier, we are not a law enforcement body. If you believe your legal rights are being trampled over by some uploader, then it's your prerogative to sue them via your local court system. I don't recommend this in most cases, but that's your option.

From our perspective, if an original owner of a work requests us to take an illegal copy down, then we are legally and/or ethically obligated to do so, and we will comply as quickly as we reasonably can (obviously we need to check that the claim appears legitimate, and the appropriate staff need to be in the office, which can take a little time depending on when the request comes in.)

If you recognise some copying going on which you believe is not authorised, then I would encourage you to go to the original creator and make sure that they're aware of it, so that they can exercise their options. If you can't contact the creator, or if the creator doesn't care about said copying enough to do anything about it, then it's not your problem. In this case, before you continue to chase up on the issue, please remember you are not a law enforcement body either.

kind regards,

chris

There is a potential Public Relations problem here. Copies of TS2009 have sold for under $5, so the cost of registering to upload to the DLS is insignificant.

Some content creators have indicated they do not want some or all of their content or reskins of uploaded to the DLS, this may include payware content creators.

The N3V position appears to allow cloned content to be uploaded when some one has died or not been active in Trainz for a couple of years. It does not respect their wishes as expressed in their licenses in the config.txt file. It also puts an onus on payware content creators to regularly inspect content that is uploaded to the DLS which is an additional cost to payware content creators. My personal view is in the past Auran worked more closely with the community to identify issues and find solutions but that's probably just my rose tinted glasses which I seem to have misplaced recently.

Cheerio John

 

[sniper297]

No, that's not even close to what they're saying, what they're saying is they are already doing everything they can possibly do.

I confirm that the files contained in the package I am about to upload to the Auran Download Station: are free from all computer viruses; do not infringe any copyright, patent, trademark or other intellectual property rights of any person; do not contain any 3D meshes or textures created or distributed by Auran that have not been substantially modified; are in compliance with the Auran Content Creation and Distribution Policy; and are appropriate for download by all members (including minors) of the Planet Auran community. Auran is in no way responsible for the contents of your upload package and can in no way be considered liable for any of its contents.

Anyone uploading anything agrees to that, if anyone is willfully scoffing at the existing law there's only so much N3V can do about it. There's already an existing method to try to stop people from cloning payware;


privileges
{
permit-commit 1
permit-edit 0
permit-listing 1
}

Try to edit get a no permission message, try to clone get a no permission message, but for a crook with even the most basic hacking skills there's an easy way around it. It's the same as copyguard, the only thing that accomplishes is making things more difficult for legitimate users, it does nothing to stop or even discourage piracy. N3V will remove illegal content from the DLS once they have been informed and have confirmed it is in fact illegal, and will suspend or revoke the violator's uploading privileges, there's nothing more they can do about it that would have any real effect on the problem.

 

[WindWalkr]

It does not respect their wishes as expressed in their licenses in the config.txt file.

I get what you're saying, and I don't disagree with your basic intent, however I should clarify something here-

* The "license text in the config file" is not even remotely legally binding in most cases.
* We certainly never see or agree to this text when content is uploaded to our DLS, so it's not binding for us. The uploader must agree with the terms of the DLS prior to uploading, so the content is most definitely licensed under those terms. Those terms include liability for ownership of the content being uploaded, however it is not practical and would not be a good "Public Relations" issue for us to sue these uploaders in a court of law. In practice, about the most we can do is remove the content.
* Most users won't see this text when the content is downloaded, so it's probably not binding for them either.

In short, while it doesn't hurt to put your intentions into writing, don't assume that simply writing something into the config file will have any legally binding effect on other users.

Copyright is of course an implicit property of any creation, so unless you waive your rights to the content it is illegal for others to redistribute your content without explicit permission. This is what we are honouring when a content creator contacts us about illegitimate uploads; not the "license text in the config file."

It also puts an onus on payware content creators to regularly inspect content that is uploaded to the DLS which is an additional cost to payware content creators.

It offers you that choice. It's not mandatory, but if your business model relies on this then it might be a good idea to pay attention to such things. You'll also want to consider the myriad other file distribution sites (both Trainz-specific content sites, and services such as bit-torrent.)

If you think that we have a magic wand to stop this kind of thing, then you really haven't been keeping up with the goings-on in the computer and media industries over the last 15 years.

There are certainly techniques which can help mitigate this kind of thing, but they all have weaknesses and down-sides. We're not in a hurry to rush into it.

kind regards,

chris

 

[shaneturner12]

Chris, are you basically saying that what is put in the license part of a config.txt is worthless? If so, I can forsee a lot of requests being made for content being removed from the Download Station.

I think it would be a good idea for a user to agree to the creator's license before the download can commence though.

Shane

 

[ish6]

Chris, then what's the point of any freeware creator creating something, placing that content at the DLS, where Auran benefits from, and then we are basically screw if someone clones and upload!? And all Auran will do removed the illegal contents, and that's it!?

This is how I see this -- if every single freeware creator ask Auran to remove their contents from the DLS, how would the DLS look then? Not full of goodies, that's for sure!

My point is, we can continue going back and forth on these points, but it seems to me that Auran is a bit busy trying to defend their position, instead of saying, "we'll see what we can do in the future so illegal clone items are stop before reaching the DLS" ...

It's great that you are defending the company that pay your bills, but the point of this thread was to find a solution that we can all benefit from, and I do not see that coming from Auran airwaves!

I understand the licence agreement from here to kingdom come, and most do, I am going assumed, but we need solutions to this problems down the road!

Thanks for reading!
Ish