I'm working on a steam route just now myself, and I find it annoying to have that pop off - specific case in point, I'm sitting in cab at a red signal, and it pops off. OK, that's real. The light changes, and off we go (in AI) and pretty quick we're doing 60 mph, and soon we're two miles down the track and we're still getting the constant hiss. Like the loop is playing too many times in a row. It's also quite noticeable it's a loop. I would expect by the time I'm up to 60, I'm pushing enough steam through the cylinders to quit the blow off. The pressure gauges all look like like they have in every steamer I have driven. So, IMNSHO, either the AI does not know how to run the boiler, or there's something wrong in the safety implementation. Whichever is at fault, the code for one or the other should be looked into and adjusted. Thank ye kindly.
Changing Safety Valve Volume Level
- Thread starter c38nsw
- Start date
And if you hand drive it in Cab mode, and try every possible combination of settings in the locomotive, it will do the exact same thing. N3v says basically, "that''s the way it is , so get used to it", from what I have read so far.
Hi All
It may just be my personal driving/firing style, and the locomotives that I use, however I rarely see this issue.
Putting water into the boiler will cool it, however how much of an effect it has in-game I'm not sure. I do use it for this method, and it does work. HOWEVER, it should be remembered that you are putting water in, which reduces steam space, and hence will mean pressure can build quicker...
Now, my driving style... Note, this is based on using my 'VR F class 2-4-2T' locos and my new VR DD class payware locos. My preference is the VR, so this is what I drive for the most part
This is based off a bit of personal experience of driving and firing steam locos (not a huge amount by any means, but still some experience), as well as many discussions with crews that I know, workshop staff, and much reading of material from drivers who describe their experiences.
For firing, I keep the coal level as close to 100% as possible when working hard, or at the start of the session. I also keep my water level between 50% and 100% (it is easy to forget your injector is on...), although preferably this shouldn't go above about 70-80%... This is for when working hard though. I normally have the blower somewhere between 0 and 1/6 open. On the prototype, the blower will always be open to some degree to ensure the fire drafts properly, and you don't get a back draft into the cab...
When stationary, I leave the fire as is, and let it burn down. I also attempt to have around 50% water in the boiler when arriving at a location where I will be stationary for some time (e.g. a 5 minute station stop), that way I can turn the injector on a few times to control pressure.
When approaching the top of a grade, I will bank the fire a little (e.g. up to about 120%). Your boiler will be hot, so cooling the fire before reaching the top of the grade won't hurt too much, although how far from the top will require some experimentation. I normally fill the boiler up fairly high before the up hill grade, and let it use up a lot of water climbing the grade. Once I've crested the grade, you will hopefully have enough space in the boiler to top it up every so often to control pressure. Also back the blower off (or turn it off completely) when you're close to the top of the grade.
If you have been working the loco hard up the grade, you WILL have the safeties lift when you crest the hill, purely because you will have a VERY hot engine/fire/boiler, making a lot of steam, which is suddenly not being used. However, if you've let the water get low enough by the top of the grade, you should be able to reduce your pressure pretty quick.
Now, if you have trouble with the pressure after working hard, you can still work your loco relatively hard down grade. This requires some careful playing with the train brake, and the bail. To do this, drop your brake pressure to about 62-65PSi, then press the 'D' key to bail off the independant/loco brakes, and open the loco up a bit. This means you are now powering down the hill, with train brakes offering a bit more resistance, allowing you to use up steam. This will require some practice, as if you work it too hard, you'll just keep things hot...
Again, this is based on my own VR locos (note, the F class 2-4-2's don't currently have a bail - I will be updating the enginespec to fix this when I get a chance ). I've not had a chance to give any of the 'official' DLC's or the Y6B a run to document my driving/firing style for them.
Which brings me to driving style... The F and DD class locos are relatively easy to drive in a sense... These locos are designed to be driven off the cut-off, rather than the regulator. To get them moving with a train, open the regulator to about 5%, then when you actually start moving open to 10, then to 15, then to 30, then to 70, then to 100. You'll need to try this a few times, as different size trains will play on the locos differently. Once you get to about 70% and your acceleration has dropped, slowly start bringing the cut-off back. You will then continue to accelerate. Adjust as necessary for speed limits (e.g. when you reach the speed limit, then back off the regulator).
About 3 of my American Saloon cars behind the F class is a 'good' load (and was normally the maximum load for these locos, although they can haul a bit more), and this driving style will work.
Yes, driving steam locos is complex, even in Trainz... However, this is to help get them closer to the prototype, than DCC mode.
For DCC mode, as has been pointed out, at this time the Enginespec system is a bit 'one or the other' regarding the safety valves. This is definitely an area that could do with improving... However, be warned, having your safety valves set to too high a flow rate will cause them to 'stutter' rather than a proper continue flow. The same effect can occur from driving style and firing style, however a good test is to try lowering the flow to see if it helps.
As to the volume of the safety valves, I normally run Trainz in a 4m*3m room with the door shut, using reasonable speakers (they can handle things at fairly high volume, definitely loud enough or the 'chuff' to be very loud!), however I've not found the safety valves to be that bad compared to the other sounds. OTOH, I do have a volume control on my keyboard that I play around with a little as well (mostly to find a nice balance on a particular day).
HTH
Zec
It may just be my personal driving/firing style, and the locomotives that I use, however I rarely see this issue.
Putting water into the boiler will cool it, however how much of an effect it has in-game I'm not sure. I do use it for this method, and it does work. HOWEVER, it should be remembered that you are putting water in, which reduces steam space, and hence will mean pressure can build quicker...
Now, my driving style... Note, this is based on using my 'VR F class 2-4-2T' locos and my new VR DD class payware locos. My preference is the VR, so this is what I drive for the most part
This is based off a bit of personal experience of driving and firing steam locos (not a huge amount by any means, but still some experience), as well as many discussions with crews that I know, workshop staff, and much reading of material from drivers who describe their experiences.
For firing, I keep the coal level as close to 100% as possible when working hard, or at the start of the session. I also keep my water level between 50% and 100% (it is easy to forget your injector is on...), although preferably this shouldn't go above about 70-80%... This is for when working hard though. I normally have the blower somewhere between 0 and 1/6 open. On the prototype, the blower will always be open to some degree to ensure the fire drafts properly, and you don't get a back draft into the cab...
When stationary, I leave the fire as is, and let it burn down. I also attempt to have around 50% water in the boiler when arriving at a location where I will be stationary for some time (e.g. a 5 minute station stop), that way I can turn the injector on a few times to control pressure.
When approaching the top of a grade, I will bank the fire a little (e.g. up to about 120%). Your boiler will be hot, so cooling the fire before reaching the top of the grade won't hurt too much, although how far from the top will require some experimentation. I normally fill the boiler up fairly high before the up hill grade, and let it use up a lot of water climbing the grade. Once I've crested the grade, you will hopefully have enough space in the boiler to top it up every so often to control pressure. Also back the blower off (or turn it off completely) when you're close to the top of the grade.
If you have been working the loco hard up the grade, you WILL have the safeties lift when you crest the hill, purely because you will have a VERY hot engine/fire/boiler, making a lot of steam, which is suddenly not being used. However, if you've let the water get low enough by the top of the grade, you should be able to reduce your pressure pretty quick.
Now, if you have trouble with the pressure after working hard, you can still work your loco relatively hard down grade. This requires some careful playing with the train brake, and the bail. To do this, drop your brake pressure to about 62-65PSi, then press the 'D' key to bail off the independant/loco brakes, and open the loco up a bit. This means you are now powering down the hill, with train brakes offering a bit more resistance, allowing you to use up steam. This will require some practice, as if you work it too hard, you'll just keep things hot...
Again, this is based on my own VR locos (note, the F class 2-4-2's don't currently have a bail - I will be updating the enginespec to fix this when I get a chance
). I've not had a chance to give any of the 'official' DLC's or the Y6B a run to document my driving/firing style for them.Which brings me to driving style... The F and DD class locos are relatively easy to drive in a sense... These locos are designed to be driven off the cut-off, rather than the regulator. To get them moving with a train, open the regulator to about 5%, then when you actually start moving open to 10, then to 15, then to 30, then to 70, then to 100. You'll need to try this a few times, as different size trains will play on the locos differently. Once you get to about 70% and your acceleration has dropped, slowly start bringing the cut-off back. You will then continue to accelerate. Adjust as necessary for speed limits (e.g. when you reach the speed limit, then back off the regulator).
About 3 of my American Saloon cars behind the F class is a 'good' load (and was normally the maximum load for these locos, although they can haul a bit more), and this driving style will work.
Yes, driving steam locos is complex, even in Trainz... However, this is to help get them closer to the prototype, than DCC mode.
For DCC mode, as has been pointed out, at this time the Enginespec system is a bit 'one or the other' regarding the safety valves. This is definitely an area that could do with improving... However, be warned, having your safety valves set to too high a flow rate will cause them to 'stutter' rather than a proper continue flow. The same effect can occur from driving style and firing style, however a good test is to try lowering the flow to see if it helps.
As to the volume of the safety valves, I normally run Trainz in a 4m*3m room with the door shut, using reasonable speakers (they can handle things at fairly high volume, definitely loud enough or the 'chuff' to be very loud!), however I've not found the safety valves to be that bad compared to the other sounds. OTOH, I do have a volume control on my keyboard that I play around with a little as well (mostly to find a nice balance on a particular day).
HTH
Zec
Hi All
It may just be my personal driving/firing style, and the locomotives that I use, however I rarely see this issue.
Putting water into the boiler will cool it, however how much of an effect it has in-game I'm not sure. I do use it for this method, and it does work. HOWEVER, it should be remembered that you are putting water in, which reduces steam space, and hence will mean pressure can build quicker...
Now, my driving style... Note, this is based on using my 'VR F class 2-4-2T' locos and my new VR DD class payware locos. My preference is the VR, so this is what I drive for the most part
This is based off a bit of personal experience of driving and firing steam locos (not a huge amount by any means, but still some experience), as well as many discussions with crews that I know, workshop staff, and much reading of material from drivers who describe their experiences.
For firing, I keep the coal level as close to 100% as possible when working hard, or at the start of the session. I also keep my water level between 50% and 100% (it is easy to forget your injector is on...), although preferably this shouldn't go above about 70-80%... This is for when working hard though. I normally have the blower somewhere between 0 and 1/6 open. On the prototype, the blower will always be open to some degree to ensure the fire drafts properly, and you don't get a back draft into the cab...
When stationary, I leave the fire as is, and let it burn down. I also attempt to have around 50% water in the boiler when arriving at a location where I will be stationary for some time (e.g. a 5 minute station stop), that way I can turn the injector on a few times to control pressure.
When approaching the top of a grade, I will bank the fire a little (e.g. up to about 120%). Your boiler will be hot, so cooling the fire before reaching the top of the grade won't hurt too much, although how far from the top will require some experimentation. I normally fill the boiler up fairly high before the up hill grade, and let it use up a lot of water climbing the grade. Once I've crested the grade, you will hopefully have enough space in the boiler to top it up every so often to control pressure. Also back the blower off (or turn it off completely) when you're close to the top of the grade.
If you have been working the loco hard up the grade, you WILL have the safeties lift when you crest the hill, purely because you will have a VERY hot engine/fire/boiler, making a lot of steam, which is suddenly not being used. However, if you've let the water get low enough by the top of the grade, you should be able to reduce your pressure pretty quick.
Now, if you have trouble with the pressure after working hard, you can still work your loco relatively hard down grade. This requires some careful playing with the train brake, and the bail. To do this, drop your brake pressure to about 62-65PSi, then press the 'D' key to bail off the independant/loco brakes, and open the loco up a bit. This means you are now powering down the hill, with train brakes offering a bit more resistance, allowing you to use up steam. This will require some practice, as if you work it too hard, you'll just keep things hot...
Again, this is based on my own VR locos (note, the F class 2-4-2's don't currently have a bail - I will be updating the enginespec to fix this when I get a chance
Which brings me to driving style... The F and DD class locos are relatively easy to drive in a sense... These locos are designed to be driven off the cut-off, rather than the regulator. To get them moving with a train, open the regulator to about 5%, then when you actually start moving open to 10, then to 15, then to 30, then to 70, then to 100. You'll need to try this a few times, as different size trains will play on the locos differently. Once you get to about 70% and your acceleration has dropped, slowly start bringing the cut-off back. You will then continue to accelerate. Adjust as necessary for speed limits (e.g. when you reach the speed limit, then back off the regulator).
About 3 of my American Saloon cars behind the F class is a 'good' load (and was normally the maximum load for these locos, although they can haul a bit more), and this driving style will work.
Yes, driving steam locos is complex, even in Trainz... However, this is to help get them closer to the prototype, than DCC mode.
For DCC mode, as has been pointed out, at this time the Enginespec system is a bit 'one or the other' regarding the safety valves. This is definitely an area that could do with improving... However, be warned, having your safety valves set to too high a flow rate will cause them to 'stutter' rather than a proper continue flow. The same effect can occur from driving style and firing style, however a good test is to try lowering the flow to see if it helps.
As to the volume of the safety valves, I normally run Trainz in a 4m*3m room with the door shut, using reasonable speakers (they can handle things at fairly high volume, definitely loud enough or the 'chuff' to be very loud!), however I've not found the safety valves to be that bad compared to the other sounds. OTOH, I do have a volume control on my keyboard that I play around with a little as well (mostly to find a nice balance on a particular day).
HTH
Zec
I give up..!!!!!!!!
So you want to drive in CAB mode, without realistic physics? Well, the locos in my reply are as close as I can get to realistic physics anyway...
Personally, I (and many others I know) would just stop creating if we had to 'dumb down' our physics to make them easier to operate. Steam locos are VERY fickle machines, and can be very difficult to operate. And our simulation of this is actually fairly basic, and often easier than the prototype.
Sitting on a stationary steam loco, with only the turbo (generator) and injectors to control pressure, well that is very tricky. Over the course of about 1-2 hours, I never put any coal on (or if I did, it was very minimal), but the whole time I was struggling to keep the safeties from going off. And it wasn't an overly hot loco! The blower was barely on, the turbo could only be run for a certain amount of time before it either stalled or spun too fast (depending on which headlight setting I chose), and I could only put so much water in...
I should point out that I was supervised during this time, however I also didn't receive direct assistance in this, just they kept an eye on what I was doing...
Yes, this was over the course of about 2 hours, but then this was a loco that hadn't actually hauled anything, just been sitting there the whole time (note, it had been 'warmed' the previous day, but it wasn't truly 'hot' compared to a loco that had been working hard). You work a loco, and it'll end up much hotter, and much harder to handle when you sit stationary for a long period of time. And again, at no point during those 1-2 hours did I actually put any coal on the fire, or if I did it was only the equivalent to one shovel (spread over that time). It had been banked to some degree, and had plenty of coal in the firebox to keep the loco in steam for that time. It just needed the water level and pressure kept in check...
Zec
Personally, I (and many others I know) would just stop creating if we had to 'dumb down' our physics to make them easier to operate. Steam locos are VERY fickle machines, and can be very difficult to operate. And our simulation of this is actually fairly basic, and often easier than the prototype.
Sitting on a stationary steam loco, with only the turbo (generator) and injectors to control pressure, well that is very tricky. Over the course of about 1-2 hours, I never put any coal on (or if I did, it was very minimal), but the whole time I was struggling to keep the safeties from going off. And it wasn't an overly hot loco! The blower was barely on, the turbo could only be run for a certain amount of time before it either stalled or spun too fast (depending on which headlight setting I chose), and I could only put so much water in...
I should point out that I was supervised during this time, however I also didn't receive direct assistance in this, just they kept an eye on what I was doing...
Yes, this was over the course of about 2 hours, but then this was a loco that hadn't actually hauled anything, just been sitting there the whole time (note, it had been 'warmed' the previous day, but it wasn't truly 'hot' compared to a loco that had been working hard). You work a loco, and it'll end up much hotter, and much harder to handle when you sit stationary for a long period of time. And again, at no point during those 1-2 hours did I actually put any coal on the fire, or if I did it was only the equivalent to one shovel (spread over that time). It had been banked to some degree, and had plenty of coal in the firebox to keep the loco in steam for that time. It just needed the water level and pressure kept in check...
Zec
Robert2d6 - Don't give up. What zec says is essentially correct. There are a couple of points where I disagree with him but it may be a difference between trainz and real life.
I had eleven years working on locos. Seven as a fireman on mainline hand fired coal locos and four as a driver on shunt and main line coal fired locos. Once diesels arrived in my country I got out and re-educated and took up another career. Diesels to me were like a lazy mans truck. Couldn't stay awake. In my day put the tool box on the dead mans pedal and on we went. Changed a bit today, granted, but no challenge and nothing to do unless one keeps trying to stop the train breaks in the mohave session in ts12. Back to zec's comments, Unless the train is going very slow, I dont use the blower, unless it is necessary to raise steam when standing or going down hill. A good fireman will try hard to prevent the safety from going off, waste of effort, coal and water. Fireman will generally try to crest the top of a hill with a low but safe water level then put the injectors on as you run down to other side to both fill and cool the boiler to stop the safeties from going off all the time. Zec talks about boiler water displacement but actually you are putting in cold water, even though steam assisted/heated, into a boiler which, if at 180 psi has a water temp of about 320 degrees not 212 so the cold water will cool it down a little. Water under pressure requires a much higher temperature to boil and make steam than 212 degrees. When going up hill you are firing against this cooling effect and trying to keep steam pressure up. When down hill you are trying to reduce the intensity of the fire and fill the boiler for the next flat section or hill that requires you to 'steam' So driving the loco's as they need to be driven is necessary as zec says. and as in trainz, its just as important as it is in real like to know the road and adjust your firing/driving accordingly so that you know when to let the water drop and fire go down or fill up and when the next incline starts. I treat this as a sim [ulation], not a game. HOWEVER..................... like you I get the problem sometimes of the incessant phhhhht, phhhhhht and it really annoys me too. Its not real. Safetys dont go off like in real life like that. However in 2012 its only some of the locos. For all the 'good' steam locos I like/use, I have altered them to suit my preferences and if I find one that has the problem you speak of, its marked for alteration. Clone the loco you are having a problem with then play around with the e-spec as described by bill69 above. No one can help you. Its up to you to fix and sort your own until you have the loco replicating the reality you want, I have done that to all the steam locos I use. Payware or not, have changed e specs, sound ,beat, whistle, smoke etc to get what I want to meet my reality. The second task is then to drive it as a steam loco would normally be driven. It takes practice but is rewarding. Diesels are for kids. Cheers
I had eleven years working on locos. Seven as a fireman on mainline hand fired coal locos and four as a driver on shunt and main line coal fired locos. Once diesels arrived in my country I got out and re-educated and took up another career. Diesels to me were like a lazy mans truck. Couldn't stay awake. In my day put the tool box on the dead mans pedal and on we went. Changed a bit today, granted, but no challenge and nothing to do unless one keeps trying to stop the train breaks in the mohave session in ts12. Back to zec's comments, Unless the train is going very slow, I dont use the blower, unless it is necessary to raise steam when standing or going down hill. A good fireman will try hard to prevent the safety from going off, waste of effort, coal and water. Fireman will generally try to crest the top of a hill with a low but safe water level then put the injectors on as you run down to other side to both fill and cool the boiler to stop the safeties from going off all the time. Zec talks about boiler water displacement but actually you are putting in cold water, even though steam assisted/heated, into a boiler which, if at 180 psi has a water temp of about 320 degrees not 212 so the cold water will cool it down a little. Water under pressure requires a much higher temperature to boil and make steam than 212 degrees. When going up hill you are firing against this cooling effect and trying to keep steam pressure up. When down hill you are trying to reduce the intensity of the fire and fill the boiler for the next flat section or hill that requires you to 'steam' So driving the loco's as they need to be driven is necessary as zec says. and as in trainz, its just as important as it is in real like to know the road and adjust your firing/driving accordingly so that you know when to let the water drop and fire go down or fill up and when the next incline starts. I treat this as a sim [ulation], not a game. HOWEVER..................... like you I get the problem sometimes of the incessant phhhhht, phhhhhht and it really annoys me too. Its not real. Safetys dont go off like in real life like that. However in 2012 its only some of the locos. For all the 'good' steam locos I like/use, I have altered them to suit my preferences and if I find one that has the problem you speak of, its marked for alteration. Clone the loco you are having a problem with then play around with the e-spec as described by bill69 above. No one can help you. Its up to you to fix and sort your own until you have the loco replicating the reality you want, I have done that to all the steam locos I use. Payware or not, have changed e specs, sound ,beat, whistle, smoke etc to get what I want to meet my reality. The second task is then to drive it as a steam loco would normally be driven. It takes practice but is rewarding. Diesels are for kids. Cheers
Bill
It's interesting to hear from an ex steam driver and how it is done in practice. It would however be very useful if you could let others know what changes you have made to the configs for particular locos to make them drivable in Trainz, this would give a yardstick for changing other steamers.
Ken
It's interesting to hear from an ex steam driver and how it is done in practice. It would however be very useful if you could let others know what changes you have made to the configs for particular locos to make them drivable in Trainz, this would give a yardstick for changing other steamers.
Ken
OK. as I have stated on this and other threads on the topic, I have tried just about everything to get steam locos to operate properly in TS12. First of all, I don't consider myself a poor learner of mechanical machines, being a licence Pilot with many hours in single and multi engine aircraft, having flown helicopters, and full sized Airline Motion Simulators, I suspect I should be capable for controlling a steam engine in Trainz after weeks and weeks of practice and reading up on the topic, as well as a discussion with an active steam engineer.
Here is what I do and have tried:
1. I never use the blower, never, not necessary, and haven't run out of steam pressure yet.
2. I almost never put coal in the engine unless I am down below around 20% and then only bring it up to around 35-40% at the max. Running around 100% is good if you want a constant Phhht Phhhtt Phhht every 5 seconds.
3. I have tried every water level from about 10% to 100% and everything in between. I see no cooling effect from adding water to a TS12 loco, none, and I have tried it N3V payware locos, and locos by Ben Neal as well as others.
4. I find that running under 25 mph, and on a level, keeping the safety from constantly triggering is almost impossible no matter what I do. The engine spec that I am using on my current loco, which I have mentioned before, is the specially designed spec that is supposed to minimize the safety valve problem, and has made this my go to engine, and it still is problematic.
This problem only reared it's ugly head after the latest TS12 patch to 49222. Prior to that patch, it was a joy to drive a steam loco, and I followed all the guidelines about watching pressure, controlling the cutoff, adding coal, using the blower, etc ,etc,.,,etc. After the patch, all that went in the trash can, because I can not operate the locos anymore using the proper techniques that are outlined in what I have read in a book on steam locos, the owners manual on TS12, and numerous posts on this and other forums. This is the part that really ticks me off, because I have to operate the locomotive in an unrealistic and improper manner in order to not have the safety valve constantly making a racket and spoiling the run.
I will play with the specs some more, and If I can get one of my locos to operate like steam locos are supposed to, I will be glad to post the loco model, and the exact engine spec that I used to accomplish this, so other folks can try it and see if it really works or not. . So far, I have not read any post where anyone has done this with exact settings, so that is why I am thinking that I am looking for the Holy Grail, which everyone says is out there, but nobody has found it yet.
By the way, I like the larger Locos because I pull long trains, which is actually supposed to help with keeping the boiler pressure under control, and the engine I run the most now is USRA 2-8-8-2 By Ben Neal and modified by Bill69 <kuid2:243294:1299:2> which has the modified Engine Spec File. It is the best behaving of any large locos I have found, but still exhibits the problem under discussion.
Here are the steam settings in that engine spec. <kuid2:243294:1317:2>
safety-valve-low-pressure 1773
safety-valve-high-pressure 1809
safety-valve-low-flow 5.13
safety-valve-high-flow 15.4
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I don't use cab operation, so I'm not asking for "dumbed down" physics. What I am asking for is "smartened up" AI engineers/drivers that actually are intelligent enough to know how to operate the steam locos without them popping off repeatedly, every few seconds.
Well said and seconded!
I don't think there is anyway to get the AI drivers to cure this safety valve problem, since even in Cab mode, it can't be rectified. It is what it is, a program bug.
Well, perhaps its a bug. But some enginespec files come closer to working (without excessive popping off) than others. Perhaps the real "bug" is the lack of way to create an enginespec that works well. I tried making a few using "the spreadsheet", but the locos using the resulting enginespec popped off excessively. I'm inclined to believe that the problem is more apparent with medium to larger size American steam locomotives. European and American steam locomotives were two different breeds, but few people seem to want to acknowledge that fact. The volume of the U.S. boilers were typically larger; fireboxes were larger; boilers ran under higher pressure and so on. I cannot help but believe these factors might skew the results obtained with using a "perfect formula" for creating the "perfect enginespec".
I must say that creating a enginespec file appears to me to be treated as a "black art". It's treated more like magic, rather than a science. You add a higher number here, you tweak another here, etc. That boggles my mind, since it's an computer algorithm (and not a recipe for a witch's brew) we dealing supposedly dealing with.
I agree with you, and it seems the problem is much worse on the engines that have pressures in the 200-300PSI range. What confuses me, is that there hasn't been anyone that claims they have no problem with the valves popping off, that can can post the following information about their experience:
Name and or model of Loco
Author of Loco
Kuid Number
Engine Spec Kuid
Coal Amount when running
Water Amount when running
Steam pressure while running
Number of cars in consist
This way, we can all try it, look at the numbers, and figure out what the secret is to reaching this no popping off goal. Up until this moment, I have yet to read of anyone posting this information. If I was driving a loco, that did not have the popping off problem, I would be glad to post these details on this thread, and help others.
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Hi all,
The safetyvalve constantly popping is also the way the creator set the e-spec up, you can reduce it by adding the tags
boiler-heat-loss, I use values 0.32 to 0.75 which causes the boiler to struggle to maintain heat, higher value cools boiler quicker
firebox-plate-thickness, I use valves 0.016 to 0.019, thicker the plate the harder it is for the fire to raise boiler pressure, you'll also notice in most e-specs no one uses these tags or when they do it's not fine tuned, it takes me months to get a boiler balanced, initial-fire-temp is another one, some people have it too high and safeties are going off when the session starts, I like to have it 7 to 10PSI below working pressure..
But for me I prefer safeties on like this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLozLvER7Cw
Cheers.
The safetyvalve constantly popping is also the way the creator set the e-spec up, you can reduce it by adding the tags
boiler-heat-loss, I use values 0.32 to 0.75 which causes the boiler to struggle to maintain heat, higher value cools boiler quicker
firebox-plate-thickness, I use valves 0.016 to 0.019, thicker the plate the harder it is for the fire to raise boiler pressure, you'll also notice in most e-specs no one uses these tags or when they do it's not fine tuned, it takes me months to get a boiler balanced, initial-fire-temp is another one, some people have it too high and safeties are going off when the session starts, I like to have it 7 to 10PSI below working pressure..
But for me I prefer safeties on like this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLozLvER7Cw
Cheers.
But that's a tourist line. In the real working railroad world during the steam era the safety valve popping off was regarded as wasting fuel and water and the railroad's management wouldn't have tolerated the frequent waste of company resources. Excessive popping off would have also introduced operational problems. For example, many of the huge Mallets the Virginian Railway used as pushers had very small tenders, e.g., in the 8,000 of water range. A pusher w/a small capacity tender that popped off many times during a run would have probably have risked completely running out of water before finishing the task of pushing the train up and over the hill. Many of the Virginian tenders were lettered with signs that served to remind the company's fireman about factors that wasted company resources, such as "black smoke wastes fuel" or "popping off wastes (x) gallons of water".
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Hi wva-usa,
The video was in the early 60's few years before the line was closed by the Victorian Railways and ripped up so I wouldn't call it a tourist railway, you can get lots of videos from Australian Railway Historical Archives and have lots of videos with Safeties always on, K 191 was withdrawn in 1968 and sold for preservation and put on a plinth.
Cheers.
The video was in the early 60's few years before the line was closed by the Victorian Railways and ripped up so I wouldn't call it a tourist railway, you can get lots of videos from Australian Railway Historical Archives and have lots of videos with Safeties always on, K 191 was withdrawn in 1968 and sold for preservation and put on a plinth.
Cheers.
I spent a few hours this morning playing with your suggestions on my favorite loco, the USRA 2-8-8-2 TS12 <kuid2:243294:1299:2>
I added in the lines you suggested and started right away with the max values, for boiler-heat-loss and firebox-plate-thickness to see the effect. I lowered the temperature for start in the firebox from 495 to 470, which gave me a starting situation without the safety immediately blowing off. In fact it is was quiet for the first mile or so, so I was almost starting to celebrate by getting a bottle of Belgium Beer. Then I saw the PSI rising, and pretty soon, off goes the safety valve again :'( I had touched nothing else and was doing about 25 mph on a flat with a 30 car consist. The most profound effect from editing these parameters seems to be the starting firebox temp, but, it just rises right back to the blow off pressure and back comes the noise.
number-cylinders 2
number-power-strokes 2
firebox-heating-surface-area 31.99
boiler-volume 21.87
steam-chest-volume 0.6413
steam-chest-max-flow 240.09
max-fire-temperature 790
min-fire-temperature 600
initial-boiler-temperature 470.2 ( reduced from 495.2)
max-coal-mass 1215
ideal-coal-mass 608
shovel-coal-mass 24.3
safety-valve-low-pressure 1773
safety-valve-high-pressure 1809
safety-valve-low-flow 5.13
safety-valve-high-flow 15.4
water-injector-rate 8.48
piston-volume-min 0.015048
piston-volume-max 0.316015
piston-area 0.5361
burn-rate 1.026
burn-rate-idle 0.01026
speed 17.88
boiler-heat-loss 0.75
blower-max-flow 0.203
piston-angular-offsets 0.1,0.8854,1.6708,2.4562
firebox-thermal-conductivity 17
firebox-plate-thickness 0.019
super-heating-constant 100
firebox-efficiency 0.9
blower-effect 0.2
boiler-efficency 1
boiler-efficency-min 1
boiler-efficency-idle 1
valve-lap-percent 0.1
cutoff 0.55
hand-brake-max-force 5.9
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Hi Robert,
Try change these values too as they've been set for maximum heat, my values will cause the boiler to slowly build pressure.
boiler-efficency 0.861
boiler-efficency-min 0.454
boiler-efficency-idle 0.667
If safeties still keep popping and staying on keep increasing boiler-heat-loss, most of my steam locomotives are rated from 120PSI to 140PSI with a very few from 160PSI to 175PSI boilers, so my values are based for those pressures.
Cheers.
Try change these values too as they've been set for maximum heat, my values will cause the boiler to slowly build pressure.
boiler-efficency 0.861
boiler-efficency-min 0.454
boiler-efficency-idle 0.667
If safeties still keep popping and staying on keep increasing boiler-heat-loss, most of my steam locomotives are rated from 120PSI to 140PSI with a very few from 160PSI to 175PSI boilers, so my values are based for those pressures.
Cheers.
Bob,
It's interesting to compare some the values used for the N&W Y6b 2-8-8-2 (built into TS12) engineconfig to the USRA 2-8-8-2 engineconfig you posted. Although the real locos were about the same size and shared very similar dimensions, the engineconfig files vary a great deal. For example:
USRA:
boiler-volume 40
ideal-coal-mass 2000
max-coal-mass 4000
Y6b:
boiler-volume 21.87
ideal-coal-mass 608
max-coal-mass 1215
One of these files has to be off by a good bit. Interestingly enough, the Y6b engineconfig seems to rarely pops off. I'm wondering now if that's because it's using undersized data(?)
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I think you have these inverted as to which is undersized, the one that I posted is the smaller of the amounts that you have listed as y6b. That is the settings for the USRA Espec Kuid.
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