I only drive Cab mode. I would welcome any suggestions for water level and coal, since I have tried just about everything, and continue to hear the valves actuating, especially on a level run or at lower speeds, which some routes require. I am looking for specifics rather than a generality.
Changing Safety Valve Volume Level
- Thread starter c38nsw
- Start date
I only drive Cab mode. I would welcome any suggestions for water level and coal, since I have tried just about everything, and continue to hear the valves actuating, especially on a level run or at lower speeds, which some routes require. I am looking for specifics rather than a generality.
Sorry, but I have to weight in on this subject, because I too find the safety valve "problem" to be totally annoying.
I don't do much cab driving. I prefer to use DCC or (more often) script out duties for my AI engineers to perform, then either sit back and enjoy the show or "film" it (video capture). The safety valve sound "explosion" spoils an otherwise enjoyable sound experience in Trainz.
Under DCC or AI control the locomotives frequency "pop off", which is totally unrealistic. Firemen were "strongly encouraged" to allow their engines to pop off, because it wasted fuel and water. Any fireman that allowed his engine to pop off as much as the Trainz locomotive typically do would have soon find himself unemployed.
Is it unreasonable to ask for the Trainz models to perform "realistically", i.e., not pop off every 30 seconds?
Could you post the specifics of what you're talking about, because after looking at the engineconfig file, I am at a loss to determine what exactly you're saying needs to be changed...
I have the same problem with AI or DCC. Specifically, if the loco is running (say, with 60,000 tons worth of cars behind it) at realistic speed (25 MPH, for example) down a 1.6 percent grade, the loco pops off like crazy. The same loco running at an unrealistic 60 MPH, or otherwise working hard, doesn't exhibit the problem (at least not to the same degree). The same problem occurs running (at lower speeds) on level or almost level track with a light train in tow.
That statement would seem to be accurate at first reading, but once you examine the science behind sound it really isn't (accurate).
The short version (of why it's inaccurate)
If you listen to the Trainz sound of a safety valve popping off on a amp/speaker combo capable of reproducing realistic volume levels the Trainz safety valve sound can reach the threshold of pain level (120-130 dB-SPL), so for all practical purposes the Trainz safety valve sound is going to sound as "loud" (to the human ear) as the real thing.
The long version (of why it's inaccurate)
As J.O. Smith points out in Mathematics of the Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT) with Audio Applications, Second Edition, "The relationship between sound amplitude and actual loudness is complex. Loudness is a perceptual dimension while sound amplitude is physical. ... we typically use decibels to represent sound amplitude..." He also notes, "In my experience, the ``threshold of pain'' is most often defined as 120 dB."
Sound systems capable of producing 120 dB-SPL aren't all that uncommon. On the other hand, most the 2 to 3 inch speakers found in the typical "add on" sound system for PCs probably won't be capable of even reproducing 90 dB-SPL. Therefore, if you're listening at moderate volume levels on a couple of tiny little speakers the safety valve sound probably won't sound "very loud". However, if you have a decent sound system set to reproduce realistic sound levels (say in the 100 dB to 120 dB) range, then yes, the safety valve will sound (to human ears), for all practical purposes, as "loud" as the real thing.
I don't do much cab driving. I prefer to use DCC or (more often) script out duties for my AI engineers to perform, then either sit back and enjoy the show or "film" it (video capture). The safety valve sound "explosion" spoils an otherwise enjoyable sound experience in Trainz.
Under DCC or AI control the locomotives frequency "pop off", which is totally unrealistic. Firemen were "strongly encouraged" to allow their engines to pop off, because it wasted fuel and water. Any fireman that allowed his engine to pop off as much as the Trainz locomotive typically do would have soon find himself unemployed.
Is it unreasonable to ask for the Trainz models to perform "realistically", i.e., not pop off every 30 seconds?
Could you post the specifics of what you're talking about, because after looking at the engineconfig file, I am at a loss to determine what exactly you're saying needs to be changed...
I have the same problem with AI or DCC. Specifically, if the loco is running (say, with 60,000 tons worth of cars behind it) at realistic speed (25 MPH, for example) down a 1.6 percent grade, the loco pops off like crazy. The same loco running at an unrealistic 60 MPH, or otherwise working hard, doesn't exhibit the problem (at least not to the same degree). The same problem occurs running (at lower speeds) on level or almost level track with a light train in tow.
That statement would seem to be accurate at first reading, but once you examine the science behind sound it really isn't (accurate).
The short version (of why it's inaccurate)
If you listen to the Trainz sound of a safety valve popping off on a amp/speaker combo capable of reproducing realistic volume levels the Trainz safety valve sound can reach the threshold of pain level (120-130 dB-SPL), so for all practical purposes the Trainz safety valve sound is going to sound as "loud" (to the human ear) as the real thing.
The long version (of why it's inaccurate)
As J.O. Smith points out in Mathematics of the Discrete Fourier Transform (DFT) with Audio Applications, Second Edition, "The relationship between sound amplitude and actual loudness is complex. Loudness is a perceptual dimension while sound amplitude is physical. ... we typically use decibels to represent sound amplitude..." He also notes, "In my experience, the ``threshold of pain'' is most often defined as 120 dB."
Sound systems capable of producing 120 dB-SPL aren't all that uncommon. On the other hand, most the 2 to 3 inch speakers found in the typical "add on" sound system for PCs probably won't be capable of even reproducing 90 dB-SPL. Therefore, if you're listening at moderate volume levels on a couple of tiny little speakers the safety valve sound probably won't sound "very loud". However, if you have a decent sound system set to reproduce realistic sound levels (say in the 100 dB to 120 dB) range, then yes, the safety valve will sound (to human ears), for all practical purposes, as "loud" as the real thing.
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I spoke to a local engineer a couple of weeks ago who is experienced in steam locos and currently drives one periodically for a local railroad museum. I described the way the safety valve operates in TS12, popping off "every few seconds" and he said that was not at all realistic. Not being able to drive at a reasonable speed on a level track, without the safety valve constantly triggering, every few seconds, is not typical. Add to that the extreme volume level of the steam escaping from the valve to the point that it overrides all the other engine sounds, is also bizarre. Having to run the coal level down around 35% -45% to minimize the valve triggering, doesn't seem realistic either. And in addition, you have to put up with this constant noise until you burn off that much coal, which can take many miles. Another solution of dragging the train brakes continually to put the engine under greater load and lower steam pressure, I am sure would be something the railroad would not recommend. What happens after a 40 mile run of brake dragging and you have to suddenly stop with overheated brakes? I can hear the cpmversation between the fireman and engineer now, " Well if you don't like the safety valve popping off, just drag your brakes for the next 60 miles"....... :hehe: Having to run the cutoff at +75% continually to keep steam pressure down, also doesn't seem to be realistic at all. So all these bogus methods of driving a steam loco in Cab mode, just to appease the Safety valve God, seems like a poor way to teach someone how a steam locomotive should be properly operated.
This morning I read about a new Christmas Steam Loco and Train in the latest newsletter and I was thinking about buying it today. After I thought about it awhile, I decided that it would probably result in one more loco that would loudly hiss and spit steam as I was rolling along, so I decided to not purchase it or any other steam loco until this safety valve issue is fixed. http://www.simulatorcentral.com/index.php/zecrail-2012-christmas-train-pack.html
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Tone matters too. If you rolled off the high end I think it would be less objectionable. Equal sound pressure levels of high frequencies are *perceived" as being louder then low frequencies. This is why a bi-amped speaker system the "woofer" is often using an amplifier that is 2 to 4 times as powerful as the "tweeters".
Well the bottom line, is that for a programmer to make a sound level adjustment of this sound and lower it should take about 1 minute at most. The fact that they don't want to be bothered to fix it, is really discouraging.
I honestly don't find the safety valve a problem, with most I use here and the forum isn't exactly awash with people moaning about it. Volume seems to pretty much equate for safety valve blowing off when I was on the WHR a couple of weeks ago. Tried using the Graphics Equaliser on the sound card, cut of the top end frequencies should help I would think.
You may find that the volume chosen is the one that suits most sound chips, reduce it and those without Creative what ever cards are not going to hear anything.
You may find that the volume chosen is the one that suits most sound chips, reduce it and those without Creative what ever cards are not going to hear anything.
I'm on both sides of this question. I agree 100% with N3V's position that realistic physics is king, after all it is a simulation and whatever is necessary to achieve realism is what should be done.
However I also agree that the steam pop off sound is painful and annoying, especially for those of us that don't CAB. I didn't buy TS12 to simulate driving a locomotive (being an engineer, a fireman, a switch man, and a dispatcher simultaneously is a bit much for my old brain), I bought it to simulate railroad operations, steam railroad operations specifically. I don't have speakers, I use headphones, and the sound drives me crazy. I rarely wear the headphones anymore while Trainzing even though I really miss the sounds, it is just too painful.
Since so much of DCC and AI physics is different from the CAB physics there ought to be a way to dis-include this god awful sound. I know, I know, I was a programmer once upon a time and what seems simple can wreck havoc in unintended places but... I remember how disappointed I was when I discovered that the AI didn't have realistic physics though.
I suspect that one of the reasons not many people are working on steam engines, other than the hellish animation, is that darned noise. If I'd known that I wouldn't have sound with TS12 would I still have bought it? I don't know. There are certainly many folks who are more into the operations end rather than the driving end and this is not a sales point for them.
I challenge N3V's programmers to fix this but if they don't that doesn't mean I'll stop Trainzing. I'll just be less likely to recommend it to my friends.
However I also agree that the steam pop off sound is painful and annoying, especially for those of us that don't CAB. I didn't buy TS12 to simulate driving a locomotive (being an engineer, a fireman, a switch man, and a dispatcher simultaneously is a bit much for my old brain), I bought it to simulate railroad operations, steam railroad operations specifically. I don't have speakers, I use headphones, and the sound drives me crazy. I rarely wear the headphones anymore while Trainzing even though I really miss the sounds, it is just too painful.
Since so much of DCC and AI physics is different from the CAB physics there ought to be a way to dis-include this god awful sound. I know, I know, I was a programmer once upon a time and what seems simple can wreck havoc in unintended places but... I remember how disappointed I was when I discovered that the AI didn't have realistic physics though.
I suspect that one of the reasons not many people are working on steam engines, other than the hellish animation, is that darned noise. If I'd known that I wouldn't have sound with TS12 would I still have bought it? I don't know. There are certainly many folks who are more into the operations end rather than the driving end and this is not a sales point for them.
I challenge N3V's programmers to fix this but if they don't that doesn't mean I'll stop Trainzing. I'll just be less likely to recommend it to my friends.
While it is true that the human ear is most sensitive to sounds in the 2-5k range, there is another factor that comes into play in regards to why the bass amp of bi-amped (or tri-amped, etc.) speaker systems are of higher power -- tweeters are typically more efficient than woofers. Tweeters typically will sound louder than the woofer if both are driven with with equal power. If you think about it, it makes logical sense (to reproduce the bass frequencies a woofer cone has to more further than a tweeter would).
... You may find that the volume chosen is the one that suits most sound chips, reduce it and those without Creative what ever cards are not going to hear anything.
Sorry, but that's an absurd statement. Zero dB zero dB, or -3 dB is -3 dB, regardless of brand of soundcard. Some soundcards may be off by plus or minus 3 dB of so, but 3 dB is the least difference most people can detect between sound levels. Any 16-bit soundcard (regardless of brand) has ~ 93.3 dB of "range" in regards to volume levels it can reproduce.
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The reflective properties of sounds too should be taken into consideration. If the output, at the higher end, is reflecting off of smoother surfaces, then the sound will be harsher because it gets reflected back and forth to and from the listener. This is why sound proofing materials have various holes and rough surfaces as this cancels out the high end, causing the sound to soften up. In the ocular world, this would be like taking a smoother shiny surface and roughing it up. The brighter (higher) frequencies get mushed around and the metal loses its reflectiveness.
This also makes the lower frequencies get lost in the shuffle. The bass end of a musical instruments, such as a piano, gets lost in a carpeted room with lots of heavy furniture because these frequencies don't carry the distance since they are made up of shorter wave lengths. When these softer waves hit the soft surfaces, they get canceled out much fast then the brighter, higher, sounds like water with slow moving waves.
John
Actually that was a bit tongue in cheek, no dafter than many of the other theories posted on here........ note smiley at end of sentence.
Room acoustics is relevant in regards to reproduction of sound, but to drag that aspect of sound into the discussion is non-productive at this point.
You do have some your facts backwards, however.The longer the wavelength, the lower the pitch is how it actually works.
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That is correct, higher frequencies have shorter wavelengths. Low frequencies need more power because the speaker has to push a larger quantity of air at a low frequency to create the sound. As you stated, this has nothing to do with the problem under discussion.
Good Morning all,
As I said in a post above you can lower the volume of the safety valve sound by changing lowpressure valve flow. To do this open the engine config.txt file, scroll down to the steam section and look for this sequence.
safety-valve-low-pressure 1773
safety-valve-high-pressure 1809
safety-valve-low-flow 6.13
safety-valve-high-flow 15.4
In the tag safety-valve-low-flow increase the number gradually, save and re-commit the engine spec. Note to make this take effect you may have to delete the loco that is already in your session and replace it. Sometimes but not always a modification to a dependency will not change unless you delete and replace the loco. The effect this should have is to reduce the volume of the sound and shorten the time the safety valve is open.
Cheers,
Bill69
As I said in a post above you can lower the volume of the safety valve sound by changing lowpressure valve flow. To do this open the engine config.txt file, scroll down to the steam section and look for this sequence.
safety-valve-low-pressure 1773
safety-valve-high-pressure 1809
safety-valve-low-flow 6.13
safety-valve-high-flow 15.4
In the tag safety-valve-low-flow increase the number gradually, save and re-commit the engine spec. Note to make this take effect you may have to delete the loco that is already in your session and replace it. Sometimes but not always a modification to a dependency will not change unless you delete and replace the loco. The effect this should have is to reduce the volume of the sound and shorten the time the safety valve is open.
Cheers,
Bill69
Having run ANL's FEF-2/3 UP steamers, that safety valve is annoying as heck when maintaining track speed with a passenger train and thundering through Laramie on the Sherman Hill route from TrainzItalia. I changed the whistle to a favorite of mine and got that 'hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss' from the safety valve just as the 820 stormed the grade crossing and barreled through the Laramie station with the throttle pulled wide open. I drive both cab mode and DCC mode, depending on exactly how challenging of a run I want. Now if I set the config to a different number, say low pressure 1556 and high pressure 2102, will the valves stop blowing off? It ruins a good whistling for a railroad crossing.
Hi haddock56,
Changing the low pressure will change your boiler pressure, It is true that if you increase that it will delay the blowing of the safety valves but you will also get an unrealistic boiler pressure. The high pressure setting does not do much unless your low pressure flow is too low.
Cheers,
Bill69
I thought the way to stop a loco blowing off was to add cold water, thus lowering the temperature to reduce the boiling. In trainz it seems to take into account the increase in volume, but not the cooling, thus making the boiler pressure even higher.
Also, how can there be more than 100% coal in the firebox.
But perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance?
Chris.
Also, how can there be more than 100% coal in the firebox.
But perhaps I'm just showing my ignorance?
Chris.
Hi Chris,
You are right, adding water in a real loco does have the effect of cooling the boiler so to a lesser extent does adding coal, but that does not work in Trainz.
In Trainz 100% is the amount for ideal burning, theoretically any thing more or less will give a slower burning rate but I doubt if that makes much difference in Trainz too.
Cheers,
Bill69
The entire way a steam engine behaves in Trainz is unrealistic.