Bemusing railway situations

[rjhowie]

Although i live in Scotland have been over to Northern Ireland since I was a wee boy and well travelled the rails. Anyway there have been decisions made that were expensive then changed back years later. Here are a couple of examples.

A number of years ago the service from Belfast to Londonderry was altered. The company decided to re-route the service from it's more direct route and the trains then travelled south of Belfast (and away from Londonderry) down to Lisburn then back up via the Crumlin branch to the Londonderry line so south of Antrim ceased. This however added a distinctive added time to the journey and not helped by the detour south and the limited speed on the Crumlin branch. Then later as time passed this decision was reversed and the track north of Belfast re-done thus going back to the original!.

Secondly in the city centre the short track to Great Victoria Street Station closed and the rails to the junction lifted meaning folk had to get to the new Central Station at an inconvenient place on the edge of the city centre. Nearly two decades later tjry relaid from the junction back into the city centre and a new Gt Victoria St station.

 

[Bill69]

so can this be called the Crumlin Gap now?:hehe:

How may times in various countries have railway officials made stupid decisions like that?

Cheers,
Bill69

 

[JCitron]

so can this be called the Crumlin Gap now?:hehe:

How may times in various countries have railway officials made stupid decisions like that?

Cheers,
Bill69

Come over and up here to Boston Massachusetts, guys.

Our state officials and "T" know how to waste money really well.

John

 

[amigacooke]

Nothing like 20/20 hindsight for criticising a decision.

 

[rjhowie]

Well amigacooke the geography over the water shows this ti be too easy an expnation. The adding to time and a circular journey in the opposite direction as well as removing a city centre station then having to put everything back speaks for itself i reckon.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

Nothing like 20/20 hindsight for criticising a decision.

Amigacooke, you do not need hindsight to realise that many of the decisions and actions that Network Rail carry out are often ridiculous both in the past tense and the present. If you just look at the current electrification of the great Western main line between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads you soon realise just how “stupid” the plans are.

Work on the above electrification of the line is currently underway and should be completed by 2018. However, the electrification will cease at Bristol Temple Meads meaning that all rail commuters travelling out of North Somerset and North Devon to London will have two change trains at Bristol. The foregoing is due to the fact that no diesel HST services will be allowed on the Bristol to London section of the Great Western Main Line due to their lower performance to that of the new electric powered consists which will be introduced.

With regard to the above, surely anyone with any semblance of a brain planning the electrification of the GWML out of London Paddington would realise that once work started the electrification would have to go right through to Exeter if it was to make any sense whatsoever. First great Western has advised passengers travelling from North Devon and North Somerset to London that there will be a “minimum” transfer time at Bristol Temple Meads of 15 minutes. As the time saving on the new electrified service between Bristol and London will only be 20 minutes most rail commuters like myself travelling from the West of Bristol to London feel we will have a reduced service in terms of time and convenience than we have at present.

However, the above is not the end of it. At Bristol Temple Meads platforms 15 and 14 are currently used for London bound services with platform 15 used for services terminating at Bristol and platform 14 used for services passing through. When the new electrified schedules are introduced both the foregoing platforms will have to be used for terminating services as obviously nothing electrified will be passing through. Therefore, two new platforms are having to be built at the station to accommodate the London bound diesel services arriving from Somerset and Devon which will be terminating their.

The upgrade to the station will cost several million pounds as the plans involve demolishing the part of the station currently used as a car park. Work on that is yet to start as first great Western who operates Bristol Temple Meads station and network rail argue regarding who should pay for the conversion.

As paulw2 once stated in another thread on this and a similar subject “you could not make it up, could you”

Bill

 

[amigacooke]

Well amigacooke the geography over the water shows this ti be too easy an expnation. The adding to time and a circular journey in the opposite direction as well as removing a city centre station then having to put everything back speaks for itself i reckon.

I'm no expert (obviously), but didn't falling passenger numbers and increasing private car ownership suggest that the infrastructure would not be needed in the then future?

 

[amigacooke]

Amigacooke, you do not need hindsight to realise that many of the decisions and actions that Network Rail carry out are often ridiculous both in the past tense and the present. If you just look at the current electrification of the great Western main line between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads you soon realise just how “stupid” the plans are.

Could I suggest that the line is being electrified only as far as Bristol because that is where the bulk of the traffic on the line travels? Even that well known idiot IKB only took the GWR as far as Bristol originally.

 

[wholbr]

Could I suggest that the line is being electrified only as far as Bristol because that is where the bulk of the traffic on the line travels? Even that well known idiot IKB only took the GWR as far as Bristol originally.

Things are very different these days amigacooke. Several thousand (if not more) commute to London for work needs each and every day. That is the needs of the many small businesses here in North Devon and North Somerset that this government has pledged to support (so say).

Bill

 

[amigacooke]

Things are very different. We don't have to guess about use, figures are available.

For example http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/15366/station-usage-infographic.pdf

http://orr.gov.uk/statistics/published-stats/station-usage-estimates

It seems that in the south-west neither Taunton or Exeter feature in the top five stations. I'm not sure all the small businesses in North Devon and North Somerset have a need to commute to London regularly.

 

[JCitron]

What I don't get is the changing of service, meaning going from one platform to another because of the switchover from diesel to electric? If this is the case, this is the biggest way to discourage railroad travel as it makes passengers disembark and then inconveniently cross over platforms to another train instead of making a single ride and connection to their destination. This is one of the problems with getting around Boston by train. To go from the North Station to South Station, or points north to New York City, passengers need to disembark at North Station, swap to an Orange Line subway (underground), then swap to a Red Line subway, or take the Green Line LRV (tram) and then a Red Line subway to South Station. Making connections can be iffy in the rush hour due to overcrowded trains and stations, in addition to the tie ups on the underground services. In many cases, I have actually walked the 2 miles faster from North Station to South Station, luggage in hand. It was much easier and less stressful than to go under and play Charlie on the MTA!

A food for thought, and hopefully British rail companies are thinking about this. From the beginning of the New York, New Haven, and Hartford (aka New Haven) electrification in 1910 until the early 2000s, New Haven was the changeover point from steam and diesel to all electric. A train coming in from Boston, Worcester, and Springfield, would stop at the station to pick up passengers. While the train was in the station, the diesel or steam engine was swapped out, and the electric coupled. This process took all of 10 minutes even in the steam days. For those of us going through to New York City, there was no disembarking from the train. We simply waited on the train while the changeover took place. A few people, though, even though I didn't do it, did get out to watch the process complete with camera in hand!

Today, this process is obsolete as the full dream of continuous electric service from Boston to New York has finally been fulfilled. It took close to 100 years to complete the dream, but the original creators of the New Haven electric service would be proud of the new fast service between Boston and New York with future plans to electrify up to Springfield someday, which was another part of the New Haven's dream. Hopefully this isn't the case in the UK where it will take another 100 years to go beyond Bristol Temple Meads.

John

 

[amigacooke]

For those who want to look into this in depth http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/western-route-study/

The Network Rail site has lots of useful information.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

For those who want to look into this in depth http://www.networkrail.co.uk/long-term-planning-process/western-route-study/
The Network Rail site has lots of useful information.

Amigacooke, what you are offering to the forum in the above Network Rail study is supposedly their predictions of passenger traffic movements and requirements for up to the next 30 years. That study has been put forward by the same top executives at Network Rail who could not even predict the catastrophic consequences of the organisations large-scale engineering work which took place over in the last Christmas and New Year holiday period.

The foregoing programme in many thousands of cases totally disrupted or in many cases destroyed the travel and holidays arrangements of rail passengers at what was for them a very special time of the year. Thankfully the Rail Regulator’s Office acted swiftly in January to impose severe financial penalties on network rail for the debacle and also ordered them to refund passengers ticket prices and pay compensation to all affected. The press and media coverage of the almost total breakdown of rail services through several London terminus stations and in other rail centres throughout the country at that time has totally destroyed the credibility of the network rail bosses which is still ongoing at present time.

Therefore, with the above in mind do not feel that many people are going to accept or wish to comment on statements given by the present network rail executives regarding long-term planning when they cannot even understand the consequences of the actions of their engineering Department over a fortnight period (LOL). So, it might therefore be more beneficial to this debate if those of us who actually travel regularly on the Great Western Main Line state our recollections and expectations regarding what should be its future.

What I don't get is the changing of service, meaning going from one platform to another because of the switchover from diesel to electric? If this is the case, this is the biggest way to discourage railroad travel as it makes passengers disembark and then inconveniently cross over platforms to another train instead of making a single ride and connection to their destination. John

John, changing services will mean that passengers from North Devon and North Somerset will have two disembark from one train and cross the platform to board another train when the electrification of the line is completed between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads station. The foregoing will take us back as rail passengers to arrangements prior to 2006 when the above was the norm.

Before the above date the there were three main train operators running in the West of England. First Great Western who operated HST services between London and Bristol Temple Meads. The second was Wessex trains who operated all regional and district services throughout the West Country and finally Virgin Trains who operated at a lower level running cross-country services between Penzance and Glasgow via the West Coast mainline.

In 2006 First Great Western took over control of Wessex trains and immediately started to introduce HST through services between London Paddington and the North Somerset town of Weston-super-Mare via Bristol Temple Meads. First great Western then extended some of those services still further to Taunton and Exeter. Those services have proved very beneficial and popular to Somerset and Devon rail commuters and given a good financial return to the train operator.

Of course, network rail now in their wisdom have decided to electrify the great Western main line but only between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads. As stated their decision to debar diesel powered HST services from the electrified section line means that once again for Devon and Somerset rail commuters it will be all change at Bristol. It is once more case of the executives of a large national organisation/company becoming so obsessed with their own self-interest and supposed importance that they forget the people that they are there to serve and who pay their huge salaries, namely the rail travelling commuters and taxpayers of this country.

North Somerset where I live is a fast-growing but pleasant area of the country where people seemingly wish to live, work and retire to. How is that development going to continue if once more infrastructure improvements are solely directed around London and the South East area of the country. Many other areas of Britain have similar arguments to the above and it is an argument that is slowly but surely tearing the United Kingdom apart.

Bill

 

[amigacooke]

Amigacooke, what you are offering to the forum in the above Network Rail study is supposedly their predictions of passenger traffic movements and requirements for up to the next 30 years. That study has been put forward by the same top executives at Network Rail who could not even predict the catastrophic consequences of the organisations large-scale engineering work which took place over in the last Christmas and New Year holiday period.

Sorry everyone. Just trying to inject some data into the discussion, from those who are responsible for the infrastructure of the UK railways. What was I thinking?

PS http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/south-wales-rail-electrification-scheme-8146631

 

[JCitron]

Hi everybody.


Amigacooke, what you are offering to the forum in the above Network Rail study is supposedly their predictions of passenger traffic movements and requirements for up to the next 30 years. That study has been put forward by the same top executives at Network Rail who could not even predict the catastrophic consequences of the organisations large-scale engineering work which took place over in the last Christmas and New Year holiday period.

The foregoing programme in many thousands of cases totally disrupted or in many cases destroyed the travel and holidays arrangements of rail passengers at what was for them a very special time of the year. Thankfully the Rail Regulator’s Office acted swiftly in January to impose severe financial penalties on network rail for the debacle and also ordered them to refund passengers ticket prices and pay compensation to all affected. The press and media coverage of the almost total breakdown of rail services through several London terminus stations and in other rail centres throughout the country at that time has totally destroyed the credibility of the network rail bosses which is still ongoing at present time.

Therefore, with the above in mind do not feel that many people are going to accept or wish to comment on statements given by the present network rail executives regarding long-term planning when they cannot even understand the consequences of the actions of their engineering Department over a fortnight period (LOL). So, it might therefore be more beneficial to this debate if those of us who actually travel regularly on the Great Western Main Line state our recollections and expectations regarding what should be its future.



John, changing services will mean that passengers from North Devon and North Somerset will have two disembark from one train and cross the platform to board another train when the electrification of the line is completed between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads station. The foregoing will take us back as rail passengers to arrangements prior to 2006 when the above was the norm.

Before the above date the there were three main train operators running in the West of England. First Great Western who operated HST services between London and Bristol Temple Meads. The second was Wessex trains who operated all regional and district services throughout the West Country and finally Virgin Trains who operated at a lower level running cross-country services between Penzance and Glasgow via the West Coast mainline.

In 2006 First Great Western took over control of Wessex trains and immediately started to introduce HST through services between London Paddington and the North Somerset town of Weston-super-Mare via Bristol Temple Meads. First great Western then extended some of those services still further to Taunton and Exeter. Those services have proved very beneficial and popular to Somerset and Devon rail commuters and given a good financial return to the train operator.

Of course, network rail now in their wisdom have decided to electrify the great Western main line but only between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads. As stated their decision to debar diesel powered HST services from the electrified section line means that once again for Devon and Somerset rail commuters it will be all change at Bristol. It is once more case of the executives of a large national organisation/company becoming so obsessed with their own self-interest and supposed importance that they forget the people that they are there to serve and who pay their huge salaries, namely the rail travelling commuters and taxpayers of this country.

North Somerset where I live is a fast-growing but pleasant area of the country where people seemingly wish to live, work and retire to. How is that development going to continue if once more infrastructure improvements are solely directed around London and the South East area of the country. Many other areas of Britain have similar arguments to the above and it is an argument that is slowly but surely tearing the United Kingdom apart.

Bill

Bill,

This is one of the arguments I have about our area being forgotten as usual. When it comes to rail travel, north of Boston, we have few trains on very infrequent schedules compared to the rest of the state. It gets worse as people head west where there is no rail service, except, for a couple of trains per day to Springfield. Beyond there, are none, absolutely none as that service was stopped in the 1960s and some a bit after that, albeit, the single Chicago bound Amtrak Lakeshore Limited, which runs as a night owl anyway. Where I am north of Boston, we are one of the faster growing regions and are demanding more service, but like you are faced with roadblocks at every step of the way. Instead, we're facing with more and more commuters stuck on highways and roadblocks getting in and out of Boston.

The Network Rail executives, sound to me like they're catering to as you say their big egos. They're typically giving the best service to the money regions, meaning greater London and the Southern Region, even though Devon and Somerset are faster growing. In some ways it sounds like they're catering to where they live rather than what's best for everyone. This as you've pointed out is a step backwards, and I wonder how long before some heads will roll. Did someone forget what it was like in 2006? If I were you, I'd contact the MPs for your region and see what can be done. Perhaps some pushing from above might get the heads in the right place.

John

 

[amigacooke]

They're typically giving the best service to the money regions, meaning greater London and the Southern Region, even though Devon and Somerset are faster growing.

Could I ask where this interesting 'fact' came from?

 

[wholbr]

Hi John, amigacooke and everybody.
At #15 of this thread John Citroen posted the following:-

They're typically giving the best service to the money regions, meaning greater London and the Southern Region, even though Devon and Somerset are faster growing.
John

Amigacooke replied with the following:-

Could I ask where this interesting 'fact' came from?

amigacooke, John was perfectly correct in his statement as the “fact” was made clear in the following North Somerset district Council sub-committee statement.

BBC. Edited report :-
In a recent update the South West Regional Spatial Strategy Committee advised that a total of 26,750 new homes need to be built around Weston-super-Mare and North Somerset by 2026 to fulfil an urgent need. The demand is being caused by the fact that North Somerset has the highest number of people in the UK moving into it over and above any other area of the country.
Statement ends

Further information on North Somerset development can be found following this link:-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/somerset

amigacooke, you also advise in your posting at #14 of this thread that the electrification of the line between Swansea (South Wales) and London Paddington has been agreed and funded. However, as demonstrated by your link in the same posting £170 million of the funding will come from the Welsh government with £123 million coming from the central Westminster government.

I believe that the plans for the electrification of the line originally brought forward intended that the electrification would end at Cardiff leaving the population of Swansea and surrounding district in the same position as those in North Somerset and North Devon. However, the intervention of the Welsh government with its agreed funding has now alleviated that problem and London bound HST through services will continue in the Swansea regional area which is very different to the present outcome in North Somerset.

So, well done the Welsh government. Why was the Welsh government created? Because like the people of Scotland they were fed up to the back teeth with “stupid” decisions made in Westminster seemingly without regard or knowledge to the real needs of the people in Scotland and Wales or the situation on the ground.

In just this one action the Welsh assembly has demonstrated it can create a better transport infrastructure for the people of Wales and through that much else can follow. Sadly as I stated in my posting at #13 of this thread, situations such as the above are slowly tearing this United Kingdom apart.

People in Cornwall are now requesting increased powers for their county council to deal with depredation in jobs, housing and their transport infrastructure especially rail. If things continue as they are doubtless people in Somerset and Devon will be making the same demands.

As stated above, more people are moving to North Somerset than any other part of the country. What a time to cut the rail infrastructure for the benefit London and the south-east once again

Bill
posted from a Liverpool to Penzance HST cross-country service.

 

[rjhowie]

About your earlier reply amigacooke. It is hard in hindsight to think what the objective was in redirecting Londonderry trains and at least they are permanetly vack where they should be. . Economy could have been one thought but it obviously whatever the intention the result did not work. But taking mainline trains away in abig further away circle was hardly going to encourage passengers and even mmore so as using the Crumlin line with a 40mph limit for about 18 miles even worse! And as I indicated replaying track back in the city centre and building a new station is something else. Then brining back the original exit route from Belfast relaying tracks! They had also singled the Londonderry Line between Antrim and Ballymena and I came a cross a reference a couple of years back that the NIR would like the see it doubled again. Talk about taking things away then at even greater cost bringing them bacl!

On tyhe postive side over the last few years passenger numbers on the system increased considerably and when I looked a while back the lowest increased line was 17%. Doing up stations, more modern and excellent trains plus better times have all helped. For now and indeed I expect for a while the presently mothballed Crumlin is something they would like to bring back. The one service that has a challenge is the cross-border Enterprise Express bewtween Belfast and Dublin. So although these things I mentioned are head scratching in the end the NIR has done well now.

 

[glbotu]

Of course, network rail now in their wisdom have decided to electrify the great Western main line but only between London Paddington and Bristol Temple Meads. As stated their decision to debar diesel powered HST services from the electrified section line means that once again for Devon and Somerset rail commuters it will be all change at Bristol. It is once more case of the executives of a large national organisation/company becoming so obsessed with their own self-interest and supposed importance that they forget the people that they are there to serve and who pay their huge salaries, namely the rail travelling commuters and taxpayers of this country.

North Somerset where I live is a fast-growing but pleasant area of the country where people seemingly wish to live, work and retire to. How is that development going to continue if once more infrastructure improvements are solely directed around London and the South East area of the country. Many other areas of Britain have similar arguments to the above and it is an argument that is slowly but surely tearing the United Kingdom apart.

Bill

Hi Bill

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick here. The HSTs are being replaced by 2 different types of Intercity-Express-Project Super Express Trains by Hitachi.

Class 801 will be electric only, designed to operate on GWML London - Cardiff and London - Bristol (as well as the ECML ones, but that's another story). The Class 800 will be Bi-Mode electric, with a diesel generator in addition to the standard OHLE pickup. This is designed precisely to allow services like the ones to Somerset, Devon and Cornwall, without having "diesel under the wires".

Hopefully, that will put your mind at ease somewhat with regards to losing through services.

 

[JCitron]

Hi Bill

I think you're getting the wrong end of the stick here. The HSTs are being replaced by 2 different types of Intercity-Express-Project Super Express Trains by Hitachi.

Class 801 will be electric only, designed to operate on GWML London - Cardiff and London - Bristol (as well as the ECML ones, but that's another story). The Class 800 will be Bi-Mode electric, with a diesel generator in addition to the standard OHLE pickup. This is designed precisely to allow services like the ones to Somerset, Devon and Cornwall, without having "diesel under the wires".

Hopefully, that will put your mind at ease somewhat with regards to losing through services.

This is one of the solutions developed by the former New Haven Railroad back in the 1950s. They worked with EMD and developed the FL-9 which was an F9 diesel with a modified traction motor with pick-up shoes. Even with some initial teething pains, the locomotives were very successful and these ran for another 50-plus years afterwards. There are still some in operation, albeit, as restored units. Today, MetroNorth runs the commuter service once run by the New Haven, and they run a modern version of the same locomotive.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EMD_FL9

John