Assistance with turbojet engine research

LNERlover5

Average Grad
Hi, forgive me if my grammar is incorrect or if i have placed this thread in the wrong area as I am only young but i need some help. :)

For part of my college course i need to collect information on the turbojet engine. The information can't just be found off the internet as for this part of the course it needs to be primary.(Where i collect it from others instead of taking it from an article)

If anyone can provide me any information on the engine type i will be most grateful. :D

(Yes, i know its not totally train/trainz related. Jet engines have been used in locomotives in the past however so does that make it right?)
 
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I worked on military ones (electronics) for 15 years at Pratt & Whitney Aircrafts R&D facility in West Palm Beach, Florida. What exactly do you need?
Personal recollections of what I did and things that happened during testing perhaps? We blew our share up now and then (serious kabooms, lol).

Ben
 
@bendorsey

Any information on how they operated and how they were constructed would be most appreciated. What ever you can provide will be a god-send however. :Y:

@cascaderailroad

Thank you for those sources, i will look to use them if possible. Nice idea for the incline launch. :D
 
There's a good book I used in flight school though I can't think of the name at the moment, but if I can find it later today, I'll let you know what it is.

Your local airport, if it offers flight training, may have books on turbojets, though. It would be under Airframe and Powerplant or Maintenance. Sporty's Pilot Shop (U.S.) has a good one:

http://sportys.com/PilotShop/product/13462

This may actually be a newer version of the book I used in school.
 
There is tons of info available at the library on how they work and how they are built so I'm going to give you is how they are tested.

I was what P&WA called an instrumentation tech. All engines military or civilian must be extensivly tested before going into service. The same holds true for a new or modified part. What the testing involves or how long it goes on depends or so many factors I'm not even going to try to explian but basically a new engine can get tested for up to 3000 hours (running) and under very strict testing parameters. A new or modified part a lot less but it can be extensive depending on the part.

1. A new or modified part.
Comes from the assembly floor to the test area (where I worked) installed in an engine. Depending on what and where it is it can have a few or a lot of sensors on it. Sensors to measure temperature, pressure, stress (strain gauge), vibration, and others I can't tell you about since they are (or were) classified (I had a secret clearence). Depending on what and where it can take a long time to assemble an engine with many parameters as the wires, tubes, ect must be routed out of the engine in such a way as not to interfere with its operation. It can be a nightmare. The engine is mounted in what is called a strongback and this is then mounted in the test stand. Engines are hung from above. The entire assy is mounted in such a way that thrust can be measured. The stand crew (operator and 2 mechanics) then connect all the various systems, pipes, cables, etc. They only exception is the ones I measured (strain gauges and vibrations). I ran a data recording system built into an 18-wheeler trailer that could measure over 100 parameters on a single tape deck and either 60 or 120 IPS (inches per second). Obviously this was a very expensive tape deck. Once everything is conneted, calibrated, checked out, and signed off (lotsa paperwork, lol) it was started up. Lotsa eyeball monitering at this time. Engine was left at idle, N-1 (low rotor) around 4000 RPM - N-2 (high rotor) at around 9000 RPM for 5 minutes (during which an inspector would do a walk around leak check) then shut down. Any leaks (rare) were corrected and the oil level check. If all was well they ran the test program taking data points such as a static (compter system reads all parameters) or a dynamic (computer reads selected parameters while the engine makes either a slow accel or decel or a snap accel or decel. Thisd continus until the program is complete where the engine is dismounted, transported back to the assy floor, and dissassembled to check the part.

2. A completely new engine. Can takre up to a year to assemble. The first 1129 (a derivative of the F-100) had over 3000 parameters on it. So many that they had to use all the computer lines from both sides of the test stand (2 engines per stand). When done you literally could not see the engine from the side for all the cables. A static normally takes 10 to 20 seconds. It took 5 minutes for this one. They wouldn't go above idle for almost 2 weeks then finally started creeping up (ands mean creeping). Why? Darn thing cost over $50,000,000 to build, assemble and mount in the test stand and that $$$ was on P&WA. Once it gets to idle its USAF $$$.

3. I worked on the J-52, J-58 (in the SR-71 Blackbird), F-100 (in the F-15, and F-16) TF-30 (in the F-14) and the new engine in the F-22 Raptor (super neat engine and plane). It didn't have an afterburner and again it stayed at idle for quite a while before accelerating. When the final testing was done they cranked it up to full military power and just let it roar to see how long it would take go go kaboom (bout 18 minutes if I remember correctly).

4. Jets are very quiet at idle. You could go on the test stand (with the operators permission) of an F-100 at idle without any ear protection at all. All you would hear is a low pitched hum - a high pitched screech would come out of the front and whatever you do don't look up the tail, lol. An engine at power is loud loud loud. We had mufflers in back ($1,000,000 each). I lived over 25 miles away and could sometimes hear them testing. The high frequencies get absorbed by the flora and fauna but the low frequencies bounce between the ground and cloud cover (like a wave guide) and can travel quite a distance. More when it raining (heavier clouds).

5. How do you attach a sensor to a rotating part. Extension cords don't work, lol. Two choices:
A. Telemetry (not the most reliable thing it the world tho it can work). Probablms are: it uses FM frequencies which can get interfered with by local radio stations, the transmitters aren't tiny so location is almost always a problem, and they tend to have a high level of noise along with the signal (which is usually in the millivolt range).
B. A slip ring. This is mounted on the front of the engine and has a series of metal rings that rotate with things that brush up against them (which do not rotate). Works quite well. Not nearly as noisy and you can have up to 100 channels. Takes a while to install tho.

6. Bird ingestion tests. A calibrated starling (soft lead BB's are inserted into the dead bird to get the weight up to a standard value) and shot into the engine by an air cannon. The engine has to be at full military power (after burner off) and after the bird hit it must return to full military power or it fails. Quite impressive to watch tho the assembly floor guys hated tearing one back down as they stunk to high heaven.

7. Do they blow up? Yup. Sometimes impressivly depending on what fails (usually a rotor). I've seen rotor blades sticking out of an H-beam like knives in a tree. If it cuts thre fuel line the entire test stand can be enveloped in flames. A test stand is strictly off limits at anything other then Idle. Stands all had a large fire system (water) except the stand that tested the J-58 which had dual Halon systems. However - titanium metal burns and can't be easily put out with water so they had covers for the front and rear then few CO2 into the engines to smother the fire.

Nuff for now - let me know if this is what you had in mind.

Ben
 
That is simply more than enough, you have been very helpful and for that i am extremely grateful! :D

It's a shame that the knowledge and skills related to the subject are so much more limited in the UK what with the decline in engineering. :(
 
Well its not great here either. There were close to 10,000 blokes at P&WA when I started. Less then 1000 now. I got laid off (18 years ago). Sent out 200 resumes but only had 1 job interview in a year. I had other income and wife worked at the local hospital so we had good health insurance so I just said to heck with it and retired. No one wants to hire you when your 50 years old and used to bring home (clear) $1200 a week (I had a heck of a good job, lol). If i hear "over-quallified" one more time I'll scream, lol.

Heres a bit more.

1. Engine controls. When I started they were mostly hydromechanical (tho they didn't use water - used special fluid or the fuel the engine ran on - can't remember which). Worked ok but were rather slow to react to rapid throttle movements. They also had a backup control but it would only run the engine to military power (no A/B). Idea was to get the plane and pilot home. New ones are called DEECs (Digital Electronic Engine Control). made by Hamilton Standard. Old F-100s had 5 spray rings (the things that blow raw fuel into the rear of the engine for the afterburner). Contol of them was mechanical based on pressure. Worked fine but was a bit rough and took a while (relativly speaking) to go from no A/B to full A/B. The new F-100 with the DEEC had 16 spray rings all of which were digitally controlled. Much smoother and quicker acting since the computer could anticipate this-n-that and start the different zones ahead of time.

2. Afterburners. Kick in the bum but costly in fuel usage. The big deal with the engine in the F-22 is it can propel the plane above the speed of sound without lighting the A/B. Called super-cruise.

3. Nozzles (also called tail-feathers, lol). Originally they were fixed in that they could only be open or closed (or anywhere in between). Open at idle, closed at full military power - open again in A/B. New ones not only open and close but gimbol (swivel) as well. We ran a test once with the lights out and they programmed the nozzle to make the mark of Zorro (Z). Quite impressive (the Generals loved it). Now days they are called vectored nozzles as they can help the plane turn quicker and in a tighter turn. Remember - if you can turn inside the turn of the guy in front of you he is history.

4. Engines under test have an inlet screen in front to keep trash, etc from hitting the blades. Lotta suction at power. Anything going into an engine other the air (and that calibrated starling, lol) is called FOD (Foreign Object Damage) and damage it is. Doesn't take much as blades are titanium. Strong and able to endure high heat but a bit on the brittle side (relativly speaking. Some blades in the high heat areas are hollow and have cooling air fed thru them. Obviously when the engine is in the plane there is no inlet screen.

5. Part of calibrating an engine is water washing it. A mixture of something that smells like Benedictine & Brandy (but isn't, lol) is squirted in at idle, then the engine is powered down for 30 minutes, powered back up, and washed out with water. It makes a difference in performance since stators and rotors are only millimeters apart at 1000's of RPM. As the engine is run (over several years) erosion occurs and the clearences aren't as tight so performance is effected. You can squirt a heck of a lot of water into a jet engine at power without killing it.

6. Safety wiring. Each and every nut and bolt has holes in the ends for safty wire. The idea is to prevent it from loosening up when in service. If it does and falls out think FOD. One little nut or bolt can cause a lot of damage. Normally you can't see thru the engine (front to back) but after a catastropic FOD event you can. Its called corn-cobbing. Guys that do the wiring are almost artists. Its complex (and subject to serious inspection).

7. Speaking of inspection - as an engine is assembled and/or tested P&W inspectors and often USAF inspectors are present. They can shut it down or stop its assembly at the drop of a hat (and often do). Its a complex job.

8. Shock diamonds. Don't get these with engines without A/B's but an F-100 at full A/B at night with the lights out is beautiful. Flame 30 to 40 feet out the rear with bluish rings in the blast. They are static pressure waves in the gas path. Really pretty. Bound to be some video available showing them. The J-58 was the most impressive (but its not a turbojet - only has a single rotor).

9. Engines are started with compressed air. Very dangerous time as the little turbines that do it are turning very fast and often come apart. Doesn't hurt the engine tho as the blades don't hit it.

10. Bearings - Expensive - $40,000 to $50,000 each. I had the power to reccomend they shut the engine down if I saw something I didn't like (vibration or strain gauge out of limits). I only did it twice but I was correct (wouldn't have a job if I had been wrong, lol). Both cases it was a bearing going bad. The engineer is not in charge - the stand operator is (he is the gent that actually runs the engine). Was quite flap the second time I reccomended shutting it down and taking a look. Engineer was against it but I had known the operator for years and he just turned to me and said "Benjamin - what should I do"? I said "shut it down" so he turned around and chopped the throttle to cutoff. Engineer goes absolutely ballistic and calls the operators boss who comes over, looks the engineer in the eye and sez "get the H--l out of this test stand". They dissassembled it and sure enough a retaining ring in the bearing was cracked. If it had gone all the rollers would have gone thru the engine and corn-cobbed it. Once in a while they don't get it and ignore a warning. Very expensive error.

11. Altitude testing. Couldn't do that where I was. Did it in a facility in Talladega, Tennessee. Engine is mounted in a gigantic wind tunnel, equally gigantic fans blow air up to 650 MPH for testing. A jet engine sounds very different at power on the ground (stationary) as opposed to in flight.

12. Testing is very expensive. An engine just sitting in the test stand with nothing being done to it ran about $5000 a day. Running it cranks the cost thru the roof. I made $27/hour - time and a half on overtime, double time on Sunday and holidays and once I worked a whole week at triple time (week between Xmas and New Years). The tax man loved me, lol.

13. Oil - is expensive and it takes a lot (gallons). Keep in mind it has to lubricate bearings in the high heat (core) area so its nothing like what you put in your car. The oil in the J-58 isn't even oil - its a special plastic stuff made by Dupont (I think) that looks like karo syurp and costs $800 a quart. Won't flow below 60 degrees (F). They would dump some trichloroethylene into the oil tank after shutting it down fr the night so it would flow when the engine was started in the morning. All military engines must have oil tanks and lubricating systems that will work rightside up and upside down. It doesn't take long at all with no oil flow to trash a very expensive engine (and remember - fighter jets have the glide characteristics of a brick). One foot foreward for one foot down, lol. They like the engines running.

14.. Spark plugs - yup they got them but they are called ignitors and run continuously for the core (high rotor) but not the A/B. When the A/B ignitors go on the fritz and they snap to max A/B the raw fuel from the spray rings auto-ignites causing a seriously big boom. Doesn't hurt the engine but its a waker upper up for sure.

15. Stall testing an engine. When a stall occurs the gas path thru the engine actually reverses for a second or two. If the lights are out you can see the flame shoot out of the inlet (front). This is also a seriously big kaboom. We ran what we called stall margin tests (to determine under what conditions the engine would stall). Even tho we knew it was going to stall its a bit of a shock and just about everybody jumps, lol. These are run on commercial engines too but a bit differently as they have those gigantic inlets (turbofan as opposed to turbojet) so they primarily test for cross wind stalls by blowing air in from a big fan powered by a small jet engine.

16. Computer systems were gigantic. Fill a large grocery store (be a lot smaller today of course). We even had a Cray XMP in the main plant tho I never saw it (doubt many did). We used to be able to run 8 or 9 engines at the same time. Last I heard today they can only run 2 and one can only have basic parameters recorded.

17. Throttles are similar to the stick in the plane (but no button for the cannons). Instead the button is to release an indent and allow the A/B to be lit.

18. Fuel is different for different engines. Specs are set by who is buying it (USAF or USN usually). Same basic stuff - the biggest difference it the additives for lubrication, etc. JP-7 is used in the J-58 (blackbird engine) and won't light even if you throw a lit match into it. Won't light from an ignitor either when the plane is at altitude so they squirt a hyper-golic chemical in called TEB (Tetraethylboran) to light the A/B. When tank runs dry it auto-ignites as well (with the usual big kaboom, lol).

Hope this gives you enough for an A.

Ben
 
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Kinda fun as it brings back a lot of memories. Most interesting job I ever had too (tho I miss those big paychecks, lol). Some years I made more in overtime pay then regular pay. I would often go 7 and 8 weeks without a day off and since I worked second shift (3:30 to Midnight) I often stayed over until 3:30 in the morning when I would get relieved buy one of the guys that worked day shift (7 AM to 3:30 PM). Plant was 25 miles out of town so most folks car-pooled but I rode a motorcycle so it was easy for me to stay over. Once in a while I stayed until 7 am (guy supposed to relieve me didn't show up). In theory I could have gone home but they woulld have had to shut the engine down (I was moniterring parameters that were critical to engine health) but I wouldn't have had a job the next day, lol. BTW - pretty much everything I've told you would apply to the RAF's engines and where ever they test.

Well - I've babbled enough - good luck,

Ben
 
Ben, unlike LNER, I'm not doing a project but your reminiscences are very interesting. My father in law is full of such stories (not about yet engines!) and I always thought he should write or dictate a book. Some of it would make most amusing reading indeed.
 
I suspect all of us will eventually have reminiscences like that about whatever it was we did. I had a very unusual job. Not many people did it. I used to make power transistors at one time but lotsa folks do that. Very interesting but the company didn't pay diddly squat. P&WA did and had great benifits as well. I get a retirement even tho I was laid off. $660 a month (beer and pretzel money, lol). A book - no - a lot of what I did was classified. Like I said I had a secret clearence and thats not easy to get as a civilian. Takes around a year. The one I had in the USCG was basically a rubber stamp, lol. One guy I worked with had a top secret clearence but he worked on something associated with nukes when he was in the USAF.

Two weekends ago I went to my 50th High School reunion. Had a blast. Met 5 people I literally hadn't seen in 50 years even tho they lived within 3 blocks of my house. We graduated 418 - 180 showed up - sadly 54 have passed away. We are all 67 to 69 years old so its time we start checking out at an increasing rate. I highly reccomend going to yours when the time comes. My class of 61 has always had them every 5 years starting at 10 years. The classes of 60 and 62 have never had one. Just depends on who gets on the reunion committee I guess. Ours were all in the band or into sports so we tended to keep in touch anyway. Guy in the class of 62 found out we were having the 40th reunion at the hotel where he worked and begged his boss to let him work one of the portable bars. He said he probably knew half of us. He did and I remembered him - he had a ball.

You guys sure got me wound up, lol.

Ben
 
Ben,

This is cool stuff, as PFX says. You were laid off at the age I'm at now. I was lucky to get the job I have right now, otherwise I'd have Romney Care, which stinks! (no politics, just a statement).

The sad part is General Electric, Pratt & Whitney, and Sigorsky have all pretty much shutdown up here too. Many of the jobs have been farmed off overseas, leaving 1,000s of workers out of work. the P&Wh plant in Cheshire and East Hartford, CT are slated for closure, or will be closed soon.

The sad part is once the engineers retire, or the schools no longer create more, it'll become more difficult to bring in a qualified workforce should the jobs ever return.

John
 
Sadly, my work as a desk jockey for the government here doesn't provide me with even a hint of amusement. I spend most of my days despairing at the number of inept people within the organisation, most of whom seem to get promoted. Contrary to the old adage that crap rolls downhill, there is a physical anomoly here in that it rolls both ways!

Such an example of which follows. Driving the desk as usual, my boss came into the room with a thick wad of paper which she started to unfold. I realised what she had was an Excel spreadsheet printed onto numerous pages and taped together to produce one enormous sheet. Her and my colleague then proceeded to start adding data to this sheet in pen, taken from another spreadsheet on the PC.

That's bad enough but once they'd finished, they returned to the original electronic version of the spreadsheet, added the figures they'd just written on the paper one, and printed it out again! I had to leave the room as they both enthused over how much fun it was sticking it all together. No wonder government is so damn inefficient.

It's interesting what John says though about jobs being farmed out overseas. The same thing happened with call centres which were at one time, a massive employer (but awful job). Now that the countries where these jobs were farmed out to, catch up economically in terms of wages, more and more companies are starting to move the jobs back here.

To keep things sort of on topic though, although I'm far from retirement yet (I hope) and it's getting further away each year thanks to the government increasing the retirement age, I decided some months back to treat myself to a footplate experience and ended up driving the loco in my sig. It's a fine piece of US engineering by GM dating from the 60s. Despite that fact, it is past its most reliable days of service and I've found that I am now learning new skills in engineering, some of them very heavy indeed. There are constant repairs required and I find it very interesting in learning how these are done, not having had reason to be around a loco before now. That said, one of the biggest issues is rust. Mechanically, it's all still original which is credit to GM.

The most surprising thing about it all is the process involved in starting up. Unless the loco is in constant use, this involves a lengthy set of tasks before even touching the starter switch. In all, it can take up to half an hour to prep the loco to run but once it is, it drives beautifully and the sound of that 8 cylinder 2 stroke is immense.
 
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Hi JCitron:

Yup - know what you mean. P&WA was laying everyone off at around age 50 or just before they would have become eligible for an early retirement at age 55. I had such an unusual (and needed job for the engine in the F-22) they couldn't let me go but I only got that retirement by 3 months. When laid off I got a package showing what retirement options I could take at 55. They said drop us a line about 2 months before you turn 55 and we will send you the package. I did and when I got it lo and behold all the numbers were exactly half of those on the original package (which I had stuck in our safty deposit box). Took both to our lawyer who sent them a letter about it. Neeedless to say I got a new package in the mail with all the original numbers and a "we must have gotten something crossed up somewhere" excuse. Bout 6 or so months later I was slurping sudz and ran into one of the guys I worked with who got laid off a year earlier. Mentioned that to him and he said "I'll be damned - they tried the same thing with me". In other words it wasn't an error but a deliberate attempt to cheat me out of half my retirement hoping I didn't remember or hadn't kept the first set of numbers. And corporate America doesn't understand why workers don't trust them.

Sikoriski took over 2 floors of the big assy building down here to assemble that new chopper. Thay are actually hiring and transferring folks from up north.

I knew several people who opted to move to East Hartford rather then get laid off. To a man the realized in the end it was a mistake.

Wonder if P&WA of Canada is having the same problems? Think they were in Hamilton, Ontario.

P&WA was always trying golden handshakes to reduce the workforce but no one would ever take them. Finally the only bigwig with a brain came down and asked why no one would take them as they were good packages. Everyone said they were but had no provision for health insurance at the time in thier lives when they needed it the most (between retirement and medicare eligibility). Put something in and we will take it. Bigwig got the hint, put it in, and folks were leaving by the bus load. Management never listens even when its thier job to listen.

Gotta agree with ya about shipping jobs overseas. Will bite them in the butt in the long run. I gave up trying to figure out why my brand new ($500) HP printer wouldn't work because I couldn't understand the Pakistani gent on the other end. Between his accent and high pitched voice (I've lost a lot of hearing - gee I wonder why, lol) I could figure out what he was saying. 3 brand new printers would not complete the initialization process. Finally got permission to ship them back and bought a Canon (which initialized and works just fine).

In Florida they are dumbing down the schools to the point attendence is meaningless. I read recently 90% of collage freshmen have to take remedial courses to get them up to snuff for collage. In other words high school hasn't done its job. They can't teach them but they can't flunk them either as they have to make room for the thundering heard coming upo from below. Called social promotion (BS).

Hi pfx:

P&WA wasted more monty by accident then I will ever see in 1000 lifetimes. Had a man making $120,000 a year with no one working for him. Forbes magazine once said a well run company has no more then 5 layers of management. P&WA had 11 before you even get to corporate headquarters (UTC). Too many chiefs - not enough indians, lol.

When I worked that week at triple time all I had to do was be there (in the test stand control room) in case something broke. I actually only worked for around 10 minutes. You can't run an engine without a main oil pressure readout. The one to the computer system went south. Oil pressure was ok as there was a readout in the stand so I walked out at idle and checked the transducer (pickup). Its supposed to be a 350 ohm balanced bridge. Read infinity on all 4 legs - transducer was shot. I stood up and made the chopping motion across my throat, operator cut the throttle, picked up the phone, and called the test admin building to get a replacement. Guy there like me was just there in case we needed something. Sent one over I checked - it read good, installed it, calibrated it to the computer, and back up an running endurance in 20 minutes. Thats all I did for 40 hours at $81 a hour. Guy over there probably made close to what I made as well plus there was a guy at the fuel farm, one version in the vibration moniterrig room, 2 folks in the computer room, and a test supervisior - all makeing triple time. Testing a jet engine is major money.

Frankly I'm glad I'm 68 years old and won't live long enough to see what shape this coutry will be in 10 or 20 years from now. Its a scary thought.

Ben
 
@JCitron

I can understand where your coming from regarding the lack of a skilled workforce. In England the only place you can learn engineering related skills at pre-16 are in specialist schools, Which my school is not. So to learn what i know i had to look elsewhere. I'm quiet fortunate to be learning what i am as the course is going to be canceled for future applicants. :(
 
America is utterly fixated on the idea that every kid not only can go to collage but should go to collage. Reality just doesn't support that. Like it or not some kids just aren't collage material and never will be so why clutter up acedemia with them? Waste of time and $$$. Some countries (Japan and Germany come to mind) have a mandatory test around age 14/15 (or thereabouts). Do well you go to collage - otherwise you go to a trade school and those trade schools are top rate. You want to go to collage - take the hard courses that will prepare you - math science, etc but don't take all the "easy-A" fluff courses (art appreciation, etc) and expect to do well in collage unless yoiu want to be an artist (and there is nothing wrong with that).

End soapbox mode, lol (sorry guys - this is a big sore spot for me).

Ben
 
Ben, I thought I was the only person who thought that. It is the same this side of the water where most kids are expeceted or expect to go to uni. That's fine but when they study ridiculous subjects and then can find a job related to that, well... It's the same as parents expectations that their little darlings are entitled to be in whatever class they fancy even if the kid isn't academically inclined. These are the kids who would maybe excel with a trade but alas, never get the chance to find out.

I had the grades to go to uni although I actually wanted to become a sparky but as my parents were insistent I went to tertiary education, I missed my chance. It's very hard to get any tradesman to take on an apprentice once you're over 20.
 
pfx:

I wanted to go to collage after high school but not necessarily right away. I wanted to go spend a year with my uncle in Arizona. but Viet nam was heating up and I was subject to the draft so started collage anyway. Heart wasn't into it and I almost flunked out beforeIi realized I best get off me bum or its Viet Nam as cannon fodder in the Army. Joined the Coast Guard after graduation. Spent 10 years in it (electronics).

Most kids don't really know what they want to do with thier lives until its too late, lol.

Ben
 
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