Article: Setting expectations for the New Era for Trainz

[Tony_Hilliam]

You can view the page at http://forums.auran.com/trainz/content.php?114-Setting-expectations-for-the-New-Era-for-Trainz

 

[PerRock]

I do not have permission to view that page.

peter

Update. Ok if I follow the forum-like post for the article (which shows up in my "New Posts" search) the link in that thread tells me that error. But If I go to the articles tab and click on this article it works.

 

[amigacooke]

What we didn't say is "you get all this new graphical goodness without any impact on your game performance no matter what graphics card you have".

Actually Tony I think you did.

"In one sentence, E2 will provide a huge boost in power and performance to make routes more realistic and perform better than ever before."

 

[ChutePilot]

Actually Tony I think you did./QUOTE]

Umm, where do you see "you get all this new graphical goodness without any impact on your game performance no matter what graphics card you have", or anything like it?

People, you have to use common sense here. Many, if not most, major upgrades to game software and/or sim software result in a System Requirements list that specifies minimum hardware requirements that are steps ahead of the list associated with the original version of the software. The minimum hardware requirements are just that - minimums. The software will run, but you can't expect it to give you all the improvements without an equally aggressive hardware upgrade.

JMHO

Greg

 

[Roy3b3]

Thanks Tony, and congratulations to your team for all the hard work that it has taken to bring this project to fruition. We are all pleased that this is not the end of the story. We now have a product not only for the present, but for much longer into the future. We've all looked forward to the release of T:ANE and despite any criticism that has been tossed your way by some people, we have deep-down supported you. Great work guys!
Cheers,
Roy3b3

 

[Falcus]

I like lots of things about TANE. But some of the things I like most are covered. The Options you guys have added to the Graphical abilities of the engine are incredible. I particularly like that you guys gave us the "Adult Version" (Get your head out of the gutter), where when we Say "5KM Draw Distance", we GET "5KM Draw Distance", instead of the kiddie version "Sorry joey, you're only safe to have 2KM and I'm not even gonna tell you that so you don't throw a tantrum" (Not that it was ever as nefarious as that, but its much improved now regardless).

I will say that, I have definitely seen rigs that will Run TANE at Max Sliders all Performance reducing options On, and nary a drop in FPS. My Rig isn't quite that miraculous, but I'm glad you guys shot for the stars.

@Amiga,
"Perform better then ever before", it actually does do this. He said it in his article. At Comparable Settings to TS12 (IE all new features off, similar draw distance, etc etc), it should run at least a few FPS faster then TS12. For higher end PCs, Take TS12 settings, add in new graphical goodness at selected or all max sliders, and still performs. And having a Rig that sits in the middle, though nearer the top end, I would agree with that statement (i5-3330, 8GB Ram, GTX970).

-Falcus

 

[gch]

Tony,

Thanks for the thoughtful and timely strategic comment.

After so many months in beta testing and having been disappointed with speed (FPS) from day one I make the following 2 points.

Firstly, Tane is light years ahead of 12 in terms of what it gives me as a non technical user. I have made a decision to run without shadows whilst constructing scenes unless I want to spend a check u period to see how much better it looks with shadows on.

Secondly, I will need a faster machine but I have decided to do nothing now but to upgrade when Windows 10, DX12 and the very next generation of hardware to support them is in place.

Probably a bit more than a year but I always appreciated that TANE was going to be a long term rather than a DAY 1 solution.

It is important that you keep plugging away at those, as yet , unfulfilled promises.

You do have a pecking order set by your customers sp start delivering please.

 

[wva-usa]

Thank you, Tony. I found it to be the most informative article I've read yet to date regarding T:ANE and its performance capabilities. The information the article provides and the TS12 vs. T:ANE comparisons provided makes has certainly cleared up a number of questions I had, and is much appreciated.

 

[amigacooke]

I'd be delighted to hear of someone who's had a huge boost in performance.

I've had a look at the KS and I'm struggling to find anything that suggests that a hardware upgrade may be required.

In fact the text suggests that the new engine (not new hardware) will deliver a major upgrade in performance.

"We've been busy working behind the scenes designing and creating an all new custom-built game engine,code-named "E2". This new engine will deliver a major upgrade in graphics capabilities and performance.

E2 features the latest technology including HDR (High Dynamic Range) rendering, whole-world real-time per-pixel lighting, native multi-threading support, 64-bit processing support and unlimited seamless streaming. With customized "graphics shaders" a huge new range of special effects will be possible such as reflective surfaces, heat haze effects, depth-of-field effects and atmospheric fog.

By offloading major systems to separate CPU cores and maximising performance, E2 will support additional physical effects. For example smoke will be affected by local wind conditions or hitting an overpass, and weather (rain, snow, even autumn leaves) that will collide against solid objects.


So what does that all mean in layman's terms? It means E2 will support:

• larger, more detailed routes/environments;
• lighting which automatically casts shadows from all solid objects including terrain;
• fully detailed and animated pedestrians, passengers, wildlife, cars, trucks and trains;
• realistic environmental effects such as locally modelled environmental conditions including cloud formation, volumetric fogging, localised rain and snow effects, wind-blown trees and grass;
• smoke billowing out of a tunnel or rain splashing in a puddle;
• heat shimmer from hot diesel engines;
• substantially improved in-editor performance.

In one sentence, E2 will provide a huge boost in power and performance to make routes more realistic and perform better than ever before."

 

[reijmerink]

I have no problems with the older graphics, as i understand what's being said. the game runs great on my i7 system, the surveyor works fine for me except one thing, when you save your progress it randomly sends you back to the windows desktop! No save, just start all over again, hope Tony reads this and that it will come to the attention of the development team. Somewhere is an aanoying error when the game just shut down when you're saving your progress.. Its mentioned several times in the forums by several people, but to play this game with pleasure we need a hot fix for that issue!

 

[Vern]

We have to take Tony at face value that E2 is not a warmed over version of Jet. However that perception is not helped by the same old interface and everything still working in pretty much the same way it always did. Even the graphical artefacts you get when working in Surveyor are similar, such as terrain momentarily whiting out after a save and occasionally when applying textures the chequerboard effect before they render correctly.

Comparisons with other games are inevitable, when I can run titles like Skyrim, Deus Ex even Railworks pretty much maxed out but not TANE which in truth even on high detail still looks several years behind the aforementioned titles.

The Standard edition should have shipped with more and greater variety of routes than the rather odd selection we got. (Avery - Drexel would have been much better than the godawful Hinton and TBH a refurbished S&C more useful than the behemoth and sadly dated looking ECML).

Of course it's not all bad and TANE remains competitive against the other sims by (for me) the ease of route building, but you need to work with Roland Ziegler as to why DEM based maps are importing with odd environmental artefacts. Procedural track needs optimising as my experience so far is that it's the biggest frame rate killer once present in a scene, not to mention odd behaviours when being placed.

 

[shaneturner12]

To be honest, having the same interface is one of the prices one pays for backward compatibility.

Shane

 

[dougtrain]

Having the same interface is maybe not such a bad thing as it is at least familiar to the people that used the old system. Perhaps the interface will change and improve over time. As Shane pointed out, it has to be backward compatible, at least for the moment. What else can we do unless we go back to pre-sp and trainz 2004? We are starting again just as we started back then with a new engine and this time we can utilise 64bit, more RAM and CPU cores. It is the way forward and it will not be perfect. I knew that when I pre-ordered but I am happy to sit here and patch and fix. Having the experience of all the other versions behind me and some forum friends along the way I feel quietly confident.

So Tony, Well done and a pat on the back from me for you and the teams efforts. There are points that I am not happy about but they are trivial and you have more important issues to get on with. I am sure that after all the grumbling you have encountered then you must have put your head in your hands and wondered why you bothered.?

You will not hear me saying I want it all and I want it all now. It will come with time so keep going and do your best, nobody should expect more than that.

Regards
Doug

 

[napierdeltic]

TBH a refurbished S&C more useful than the behemoth and sadly dated looking ECML).

So for 3 years building the ECML TANE version of around 55 - 60hr a week on top of my 40hr paid job was a waste of my time extending to Edinburgh and Moorgate. I may as well give up and not bother any more ??

Cheers
Stuart

ECML Project Leader

 

[Vern]

So for 3 years building the ECML TANE version of around 55 - 60hr a week on top of my 40hr paid job was a waste of my time extending to Edinburgh and Moorgate. I may as well give up and not bother any more ??

Cheers
Stuart

ECML Project Leader

Now come on Stuart, you know that's not what I mean. The effort is more than appreciated, but the fact it has been under construction for so long inevitably means there will be corners that look less up to date than more recent routes. It's also no reflection on your and your teams efforts that TANE doesn't quite deliver the improved appearance we were all expecting and the sad reality is, if it was built in TRS2006/TS2010/TS12 it still looks like TRS2006/TS2010/TS12. I look at my Glasgow to Falkirk in TS2010 and cringe now at how crap it comes over, but at the time thought it was the bee's knees when it was state of the art in UTC.

 

[nathanmallard]

If it's any consolation, I think the ECML looks fantastic and is a testament to what the surveyor system can do in Trainz. It is unlikely you'd get a route that long, and with the same amount of detail, in Railworks! I appreciate all the work you and your team have put in to it, and it still gives me a bit of a thrill when I drive through my nearest station! (Hessle, BTW)

 

[gawpo50]

much better than the godawful Hinton

I beg to differ.....like to see you do anything better.........probably be waiting a long time

 

[SailorDan]

"Given that comparisons between the old and new are ongoing, it is worth going into more detail about how to accurately compare performance between previous iteration of Trainz (TS12) and the current T:ANE version."

Why just performance? what about features? I don't think anyone expected that we would go backwards as far as features are concerned.

For instance, I just tried downloading from the DLS in CM - a fairly straightforward process. I started the first download, it worked out the dependencies, and started downloading. So I selected my second item. The dependencies were evaluated and then - abort. It appears that the downloads cannot run in parallel (perhaps a limitation of not having a FCT) so instead of simply stacking the downloads into a queue like TS12 did, it just abandons the download.

A sceptical person would assume this is a deliberate change to force people into a FCT. The more generous would accept it is a fault and lodge a bug report (noting, btw, that there is STILL no option to nominate TANE as the product in the error reporting system) while others will just shrug and move onto another product. But no-one will find any sort of warning that this change was coming.

 

[Vern]

I beg to differ.....like to see you do anything better.........probably be waiting a long time

Well without getting into a peeing contest, my various routes on the DLS and at TS.com would indicate otherwise.

Edit: In any event I'm sorry if my comments came over unduly harsh, with regard to Hinton I should really have stated "performance sapping" in context of godawful, not the route itself which I'm sure is perfectly fine once able to play it.

 

[Tony_Hilliam]

Have you installed Hotfix 1 Vern?
My GTX 560 goes from slide show to smooth at default settings (not that I expect to play at those settings as the article above indicates...)