AI Routing Direction Marker,<kuid:30501:1013>

[sniper297]

Possibly I'm using this wrong or misunderstood what it was. I read somewhere that AI Routing Direction Marker,<kuid:30501:1013> was a new and improved version of the old track direction marker, it was supposed to keep AI trains out of certain tracks while not causing false red signal aspects like the track direction marker did.

Right hand running, AI train going bottom to top on right track should stay on that track and wait for the block to clear if the signal is red. The AI routing direction marker should theoretically prevent him from diverging to the right.

So here he comes, the player train (2 engine MU) is blocking the main between him and the next trackmark, which is just in front of the player train.

He ignores the routing direction marker pointing towards him to take a "shortcut" through the engine house. Dunno what he's thinking, he rejoins the main on the other side of the player, then what? Can't back up to the marker with the player still sitting there. Even using Drive to/via instead of Navigate to/via it seems like movement is all to these AI trains sometimes, keep moving at all costs and worry about finding a path that actually works later? What are these markers actually for, since they don't seem to prevent AI trains from entering a track section?

 

[frogpipe]

All I've ever seen it do is set a red signal that when hovered over stated "Track has opposing direction marker" or something similar. As far as I can tell, they are worthless.

I have a short section where 1 track splits to 2 tracks then recombines into 1 track, like a passing siding, except neither track is a dead straight shot through like all the diagrams you see in the guides. Anyway, if I have a train going either direction, heading to a destination down the line it always takes the east side. Adding track marks I thought at least the south bound and north bound would take different tracks through that section. Nope. Made no difference what so ever.

So I added a trackmark and added "Navigate via trackmark" to the command list.

 

[Dermmy]

I have quite honestly never had an AI train ignore a direction marker. Never.

A couple of observations though: Only use them where you would put a 'No Entry' sign. Don't use them like 'One Way' signs. In your top pic the left-hand one needn't be there, it is doing nothing. The right-hand one is the right idea, but the wrong place. It should be on the other side of that vertex. I always place them immediately after the first vertex after the junction, yours is on the junction spline and needs to be moved back a tad.

You also look a bit over-signalled! The red dwarf near lever 348 can go, and as a general principal avoid signalling the lever end of junctions, only the trailing approach needs signalled. The AI wil treat the lever as the signal on the facing side. Not proto, but the AI will like it better....

 

[sniper297]

Nope, moving the AI routing direction marker past the vertex has no effect, the AI train flips the switch, sees a clear path, and goes. Replacing it with an actual track direction marker stops it, it still flips the switch back and forth but since it can't get a clear aspect either direction it has to wait for the preceding train to clear the block ahead. I can't see any practical use for the AI routing direction marker if it won't stop an AI train from going the wrong way.

 

[Dermmy]

Your terminology is confusing me a bit: "routing direction marker" v. "actual track direction marker"?

 

[sniper297]

Maybe we're talking about different things here.

Track Direction Marker,<kuid:-3:10124>

That's the one specified in the 0catch tutorial, if you throw the switch into a track that has one of those markers pointing out, the signal is red over red so the AI won't go in there.

AI Routing Direction Marker,<kuid:30501:1013>

It was my understanding that was a new and improved version which would keep the AI out while not causing false signal aspects that might confuse the player. I never had it fail either, but then again I never tried destructive testing on it until now. It APPEARED to work just fine on the Chicago Metro, but that was a much bigger route with fewer AI trains and fewer single track sections. This one has more AI trains per mile of track simply because there's less track, and I was astonished when I saw a traffic jam where one of the AI trains diverged onto a branch line that didn't even lead to anyplace where he could get to the next trackmark - I could have sworn I put a routing direction marker on that branchline to keep the AI out of there?! Checking in surveyor I found that yes, I had done that, the AI apparently ignored the marker. That's when I started actually testing by running the player engines out to block the mainline, and discovered that given an alternate route they will take that route despite the AI routing direction marker and the fact that the alternate route won't get him where he needs to go.

There's your suggestion, moved the marker beyond the first vertex past the switch.

The AI comes up to the red signal, stops, begins the usual routine of trying switch changes to see if he can get something other than a red signal, finds something that allows him to go.

After running through the engine shed NOW he remembers about the Drive Via instruction and figures out he can't get to the next trackmark that way, so he backs up.

Let's try the crossover to the wrong direction track, ignoring the AI routing direction markers facing outward on the crossover - but now he crosses back again, either he decided the wrong way markers on the track he's on now are worth obeying, or figured out he can't get to the trackmark in front of the player going that way either. Leave him alone and don't move the player train, he'll keep repeating that until you move or end the session.

I've heard of a "wait until not red" rule but I'm reluctant to add yet another rule, especially if it has to be added at every possible diverging signal to every schedule, so I'm making a KUID2 for the route that replaces all the AI routing direction markers with the old Track Direction Markers since those DO work, the AI will sit there and flip the switch back and forth trying to get a green but won't go because the original marker causes the doublehead to always show red over red when it's set for that track. Players can always opt to ignore the red signal in that circumstance, I just prefer to make everything n00b friendly whenever possible.

 

[Dermmy]

If the default track direction marker ain't broke, why try to fix it? Seems to me the 'fix' is broken!

I can't see a problem with the red aspect set against a direction marker, the prototype would have a fixed red if a track was a no-go-zone. To my eye that is better than an AI train sitting at a green for no apparent reason! If a player train wants to pass a red induced by a direction marker just hover the mouse over the signal, confirm that it IS a direction marker causing the red and then treat it as a permissive, which is exactly the situation.

Edit: Now I think of it, a signal facing a junction protected by a direction marker probably should be a permissive!

 

[sniper297]

Mmm, no, unless the session includes a rule that penalizes the player for running red signals he can go thru absolutes with no problem. I don't use permissives except at yard entrances to set up an AI for couple at trackmark, if I use permissives on the mainline the AI seems to think they mean "go full tilt boogie until you hit something expensive".

Anyway looking at this AI routing direction marker, it's built in to TS2010, description says;

"Similar to the 'Track Direction Marker', however this object does not affect signalling."

I interpreted "similar" to mean used as an alternative, but according to this test it doesn't prevent AI movement in a given direction, so what exactly IS it for if it won't do that?

 

[JohnnyC1]

I brought this issue up a while back and the replies were the same. I am with you, just what is the purpose?

John

 

[sniper297]

Being an Auran creation I suspect only they can answer that. The other one;

AI Routing Priority Marker,<kuid:-3:10190>

Has no description but from the name I would assume it would be to designate a "preferred" route, but if the AI Routing Direction Marker doesn't always stop AI trains from entering, how is it different from the priority marker? Or did they get them mixed up?

 

[JohnnyC1]

I have used the AI Routing Priority Marker,<kuid:-3:10190> as a one would use AI Routing Direction Marker. It does seem to keep AI freight trains from entering the passenger station siding while allowing the pass anger trains to enter the station. This works even if you don't change the trains priority, just change the priory to a number not used on your route. On my routes all trains are priority 2. The priority 2 AI passenger trains will take the siding when routed there, even if the marker is set to a different number.

John

 

[sniper297]

Hmmm, I just tried the AI routing direction marker to see if that was it, clicking on one with the question mark tool just gives the option to name it, no priority setting in it.

 

[frogpipe]

I have numerous complaints about this game, but my all time biggest "Lewis Black" issue is the lack of GDMF'n DOC U MENT TA TION....

Both from Auran and 3rd party devs. I know it's a pain, and it's a zero revenue enterprise, but it's also necessary evil - I know it well, it was once part of my job.

 

[sniper297]

It is irritating, but coming from the other two trainsims I can tell you it's not unique to Trainz - and about half the tech docs included in the original MSTS were just flat wrong.

This should be pretty simple tho, the track direction marker is supposed to stop AI trains from running the wrong direction on one-way tracks, and that works as advertised, always. The description for the AI routing direction marker says it's "similar" which I take to mean used for the same purpose, but either that's not what it's for, I'm not using it right, or it's broken, one of those three.

 

[frogpipe]

Yes, I remember those dark days....

 

[sniper297]

Nobody home, leave a message at the tone.

Somebody has to know the answer to this, is it broken, am I using it wrong, or is it not intended as a replacement for the track direction marker?

 

[wylie]

I have numerous complaints about this game, but my all time biggest "Lewis Black" issue is the lack of GDMF'n DOC U MENT TA TION....

I think a big part of that is the "vibe" I get from the official trainzdev wiki - it seems very much N3V territory. Im hesitant to change (or add) anything there. The home page isnt very inviting, and while it does say that content creators can add "their own" pages, it seems more like an invitation to add info about your own creations, rather than to assist the documentation effort.


What Trainz really needs desperately is a well organized COMMUNITY WIKI, where all are welcome to jump in and add to the accumulated knowledge, The current trainzdev site certainly does not feel like that.

We cant expect N3V/Auran to document everything. We need to be able to maintain the documentation ourselves, whether that be on the official N3V wiki, or not (It would be better if it was). We could use whats there as a starting point, but the site clearly needs to go further towards becoming a community portal, or the only people updating it will be the devs themselves. Other games I play that need similar levels of technical "creator" documentation have thriving community portals, and are *VERY* well self-documented by the community, and the developers. Their Wikis feel open, inviting and well informed.

Sorry, not meaning to hijack the thread, but I feel that this needs to be said. Perhaps we should start a new thread about this?

As to the direction markers, I haven't played around with the newer one so I cant help there. Sorry

 

[sniper297]

http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showthread.php?75080-Session-rules-No-description-provided

Lot of that going around, but for this particular problem it's a simple asset created by Auran, somebody from Auran should know the simple answer - is it broken, am I using it wrong, or is it not intended as a replacement for the track direction marker?

 

[sniper297]

bump!

While testing a session that worked a year ago on Chicago Metro, I suddenly have AI trains that are ignoring AI routing direction markers on THAT route now. I did exhaustive testing before uploading a year ago and it always worked flawlessly, now the blasted things are crossing over to the wrong track completely ignoring the AI routing direction markers. Something changed since last year, what was it? Can't be the asset itself, only one version, no KUID2 replacement for it.

 

[nfitzsimmons]

It is irritating, but coming from the other two trainsims I can tell you it's not unique to Trainz - and about half the tech docs included in the original MSTS were just flat wrong.

It's been my experience that in general programmers write crappy program documentation and even worse user manuals.

I once spent six months writing technical documentation instead of doing my job because the company discovered I could write coherent user manuals.