AI Frustrations. Please help.

[narrowgauge]

Folk

The way this is going I will be getting stuck into the 'Christmas cheer' a little early.

I am groping in the dark now and I need someone to take my hand.

The problem is this.

Line conditions:- One engine in steam, no track obstructions, all junctions set to the main as default.

I want to send a train from station A to station B about 20 miles apart, under AI control at a maximum speed of 12 mph. I want it to observe mospeedboards and travel at the maximum set speeds at all times, changing speed rapidly. I want the same speeds to apply to the train in both directions while the zig-zags are negotiated. I want it to slow and stop at intermediate stations under 'drive to trackmark/wait/drive to trackmark' orders. I want it to leave those stations and accelerate quickly.

For this purpose I am not concerned if the chosen loco is overpowered, and configured like a startled rabbit.

Can someone help me, please.

Questions.

1 Why don't AI trains accelerate/deccelerate at the same rate as DCC? What can be done to alter this?

2. Why does the a railcar under AI control go faster forward, ignoring speedboards and then struggles to achieve 1 kph in reverse?

3. How can I tell the AI that it has a clear line right the way to the target trackmark. I have tried Charlie Whitedogs 'Signal Thingy' but that behaves as though it is a stop signal.

4. Where can I get or how can I make an invisible signal that is permanently set to a 'Proceed' aspect.

5. Why isn't this logical and simple like Gmax?

6. Why am I unhappy and frustrated.

Yup! I feel better now but I will relapse if no-one helps.

Happy Christmas to one and all.

Cheers

Narrowgauge

 

[Euphod]

I have much experience in getting AI to do what I want. This sounds all wrong. AI trainz should do precisely what they are ordered, and should accelerate and decelerate more quickly than the DCC..
This sounds like a signaling problem to me.
Ed

 

[Euphod]

Is there any other traffic on the line?
Is there signaled track beyond the starting and the stopping station long enough to not be seen as a stop signal by the AI?
The intermediate stops....are the track marks in the zone of a working industry?
When the train stops at the last station, I assume it reverses then? Is it facing a signal when it stops?
All trains should act in reverse the same way they act in forward.
The signal thingie is just another signal, if you place it before a red, it should show a yellow aspect. If the AI already have a yellow aspect ahead though, it will be seen as another red.
Are there directional track marks on the line?

Ed

 

[narrowgauge]

Ed

Thanks for the comments.

No other traffic, one engine in steam situation.

At the moment there are no signals and as the protoype is 'unsignaled' I was hoping to avoid them.

All the trackmarks are randomly placed at the moment, in the final event they will be placed at intermediate stations. There are no industries. This is a passenger only line.

When the train stops at the final track mark at the other end of a single track, the sequence finishes.

The signal thingie does just what you say and is not what I want.

No directional trackmarks, just the basic ones as drive-to points.

Some explanation, this is not a 'start the trains running and watch' scenario, I want to start the only train on the line at station A and allow the user, as a rider in a passenger car, to experience the line from the point of view of a tourist. Each division will be about 15 -20 miles and 12 mph it will be a long journey, just like the real one that takes about 8 hours for the 50+ miles. At the terminating point the experience stops.

There will be an alternative down hill run experience available for each division. The downhill run is headed by the loco running in reverse.

Further explanation. I have already run an AI train one end to the other with no problems, this run included negotiating three sets of switchbacks which it does without any trouble at all. The only problem was locomotive speed and I am told that without signals the trains will run at half the posted speed. It would be nice if it was possible to alter this default speed. I agree in advance that I could double all the speed limit settings but I would prefer not to.

Please keep the thoughts coming.

Cheers

Peter

 

[Euphod]

Okay, I know what you are doing now. I don't think you are going to get satisfactory results without signaling the line somehow. What you need is a signal that is camouflaged as something else, like if the Mongoose next to the track is sitting, it's green, standing, it's yellow, dead with a cobra attached to it's face....red.
I understand you also then are working with some rules concerning the switchbacks, do they involve signaling of any sort? Probably not, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
It's been my experience that a track that is signaled insufficiently will result in a yellow aspect, but track that is completely unsignaled can result in a drifting 20 to 40mph state of confusion.
Ed

 

[Lots_Trains]

Hi Narrowgauge

I've had the speed in one direction ok and in reverse 1km hr happens on an unsignaled track. To me it sounds like a signal problem

Add a couple of these Invisible signals should solve the problem

<kuid2:45324:24010:1>

Also I find one of the Autodrive rules are bit more reliable than the drive to trackmark rule

<kuid2:192081:4:3> or
<kuid2:30671:80001:1>

if you use them you will need the switch direction rule at the other end of the line

Cheers

 

[narrowgauge]

Ed

I have been thinking that if signaling is needed it can be done with invisible signals, A dead mongoose gets smelly after a while although that would be a nice gimmick.

There is no rule involved in the switchbacks, the AI is clever enough to do that using just a drive-to command.

Lots_trains

I can live with invisible signals if it is forced on me. You say add a couple, does this mean a couple used once at the end of each division or a couple used at interval.

Both of you

Here is where I get a little wobbly. If there is a distant and a home signal at the destination will that suffice for the full division distance? What tells a signal that it should show a green at all times? All the signals I have played with recently go to Stop or Caution immediately. Are there rules to command signals? Can I tell a trigger to set a signal to Proceed?

Despite my years in Trainz, I'm a beginner in the Trainz signals area so words of one syllable are the best I can handle at the moment.

Cheers

Peter

 

[Euphod]

Well, to have a signal in a constant green state, the signals past it can be no less than caution and stop, and it must have at least two signals past it, or it will be a constant stop signal. Problem is the AI is hobbled by the signaling state of Trainz, in that the signals remain red, until approach.
I recommend when placing your mongeese,er....sorry, I mean invisible signals you test with the McHUD so you can observe the relation of the locomotive to the aspect of the signals, or alternatively work from map view.
There may be a rule or two that will allow a signal to remain in constant green, you'll have to cruise the DLS for that. I know there are rules affecting crossovers that allow "If switch A is lined this way, then switch D must be aligned that way...." You may have to get tough and "force" it using a rule or two.

As far as the AI is concerned the more signals the better. They abhor unsignaled track, and if they can't get a proceed signal when they need one, they sometimes reverse to find one, then proceed as if nothing had happened. I would recommend a track bumper (red signal) at each end of the layout, and no less than five or six signals along the way.

Ed

 

[narrowgauge]

Ed

Thanks.

I'll try that but first I will haunt the DLS, that is the (only) good thing about 2006 and CMP, it is a better interface to the DLS.

I expect there may be more comment in this thread, with this level of assistance I should be able to get something sorted out.

I will posts results whatever they may be.

Cheers

Peter

 

[narrowgauge]

Ed

I found this which from the description may do the job:-

Signals Details Rule KUID 137715:20011

Description

"This rule adds a window for each signal details.<br>You may now set signal states (red/yellow/green/automatic) directly."

Hopefully once set the settings can be reproduced. If not I'll keep looking. Too late to try to now, it is 'beddy byes' time here in Oz

Cheers

Peter

 

[laldfordo]

Interested to know if you get Signal Details Rule to work. I gave up as it did not seem reliably to revert to automatic from the fixed red that I wanted. (Watching my spelling and grammar carefully as Euphod looks at this thread!) Since I wanted a signal that the dispatcher could fix at red, I used an invisible junction instead of the Signal Details Rule.

 

[nismit]

famous DLS classics

Posting Deleted.

 

[Lots_Trains]

Hi Narrowgauge

You should place 2 invis Signals at each end of the track and one where you start off, if you just place one the train will proceed at half speed, 2 will allow you the last signal you use to show green. If the signal stays red at the start often its a distance thing, 30 odd Kms might be a bit far so do as Ed said add probably 5/6 invis Signals along the way is best. it will not give you problems

You DO NOT need any signal changing rules they will just complicate things, keep it simple

Cheers

 

[narrowgauge]

Guys

I thank you all for the help and information, signaling is definitely not for the faint-hearted or someone who has spent nearly all his Trainz life head down in Gmax.

I found something interesting. Initially I found that an AI train would do what it had to without signals but at a reduced speed. This was ascribed to the lack of signals. Accordingly I put signals in and eventually had a route where a series of two aspect colour signals flipped from green to red as the train passed, very nice to look at but this did nothing for the speed problem. I experimented with different DHR locos but to no avail, they were all slow. Remember that these are all locos that under DCC will respond very smartly to the throttle. Saddened at heart I imported the Vulcan from Northbay and lo and behold, it went up the route like a stallion at or near the posted speeds all the way.

I then proceeded to back-track and progressively removed all the signals, nothing made any difference, still that loco did what I expected of it. Finally I reached the point that there were no signals and still the Vulcan climbed the hills steadily and at the right speed. To confirm this, at great expense, I shipped in the Northbay Garratt, and this performed in exactly the same way.

Conclusion. Based on what I postulate as the condition of no other working locomotive on the track, it appears that I do not need signals at all. Junctions and reverses do not faze Alistair or Adrian, they manage quite well without. All I need is a DHR B class loco with adequate hauling power, provided specifically for this AI session.

No doubt someone will say, what if a user wants other locos working at the same time and I have an easy answer, he or she can do their own signaling.

I thank you all for your assistance, I have learned a little about signaling, and a lot about the willingness of Trainz people to help.

Again, thanks.

Cheers

Peter

 

[narrowgauge]

Folks

I thought I should post back about what I have achieved.

I have successfuly coaxed the AI system to keep on the straight (very twisty really) and narrow over a 20 scale mile track. No signals, only trackmarks. The speed problem was solved reasonably well by setting the loco top speed to about 25 mph and using the Max Speed rule to control the speed with a speed limited passenger car. As the consists all remain the same this works well.

I did strike one quirk. From one station the train has to back out on one leg of a Wye and move out on the other. I could not make the AI behave. I finally twigged it, the AI was seeing the line it was directed to as being open ended, solved by creating a balloon loop of invisible track under the scenery which made the driver very happy.

Thanks for all the help.

Cheers

Narrowgauge