A "what if" scenario...

[sawyer811]

Last night (like just about every night) I was perusing RRpicturearchives.net, randomly searching engines, mostly steam. In it, i came across a great pic of two D&RGW Narrow gauge Mikados, a K-37 and a K-36 (492 and 484, with 492 leading) sitting seemingly in the middle of a field without the benefit of rails while the fireman on the 492 unclogs the sand dome. Now i say this, because under the picture someone commented "I wish they would just rebuild the whole system." someone, predictably, replied, "you need money, and even then, where would the revenue come from?" (or words to that effect. If you were wondering, the pic is here: http://www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1532538)

That got me thinking: let's assume, for the moment, that the will was there (for our purposes let's say the Colorado and New Mexico state railway commissions) and money was no problem...I know it's far fetched, but bear with me. Also, let's assume there was a steady revenue source to be had (tourists, the Gramps oil field, take your pick). What would it take to rebuild, initially, the fourth divison (Alamosa to Silverton with branches to Farmington and Pagosa Springs) and later the whole system (the connecting line between the 3rd and 4th divisions...Alamosa to Salida...and the 3rd Divison, IE Salida to Gunnision with branches to Ouray, etc). I mean, money wise, obviously, but how much of the grade(s) is still usable? how many of the bridges are still standing and what would it take to rebuild them? What facilities are left for the railroad to use?

This is all very fantastic, I know, and more than likely is never going to happen. And above that I'm not sure anybody really knows what it would take. However, the idea was simply too intriguing to not pursue, and I just thought I'd post this as a "what if" scenario and see where the discussion goes. However, I really hope this doesn't turn into a thread where everyone scoffs and says "well, it's never going to happen, so why do you care?" Like I've said several times, this is a best case, fanciful, complete what-if.

Also, I have no plans of going off and doing this myself, just so you know:hehe: Feel free to have fun with this, god knows I'm going to!

 

[mjolnir]

The last value I had for the cost to build a mile of tangent single track with no grades, and with no turnouts or bridges, was a million US dollars per mile. Now, a narrow gauge right of way would be a bit smaller, so this could be reduced a bit, say by 20 percent, but the track is not all tangent, and you are going to need switches / turnouts / junctions, and bridges, and if you're hauling passengers, signalling. My first guess as to the cost of rebuilding the line you mention is that at a minimum the cost is going to be on the order of 5 to 10 million dollars per route mile.

ns

 

[bendorsey]

Just re-connecting the Durango & Silverton to the Cumbres & Toltec would cost an absolute fortune and the biggest problem would be right outside Durango. Getting permission for the right-of-way next to Uranium Hill (where the ore for the atom bombs used in WWII was mined). Even today close to 70 years later its fenced in and off limits. Be one heck of a great trip tho wouldn't it.

As for the entire system isn't there a dam in the Black Canyon of the Gunnison (that wasn't there way back when)? The Right-of-way is under water I believe (or at least part of it).

Ben

 

[wilh]

Yep Ben, most of the Black Canyon right of way would be underwater, so if they ever rebuilt the old D&RGW narrow gauge system, they would have to find an alternate route. (Which could be overly expensive). I don't really know for sure how much of the old right of way is still useable, some has probably been converted to dirt road, so that wouldn't be too difficult to convert back, but what about the sections that are now being used as highways and large paved roads, would that provide some major challenges and issues regarding the need to survey a new grade. Now as for the section over La Veta Pass (Alamosa to La Veta), I think that might be the easiest to do as all they would need to do is to lay a third rail for the narrow gauge, as that section is used by the standard gauge San Luis and Rio Grande (great excursion by the way, absolutely beautiful). So, would you propose to also add narrow gauge rail to sections that once were narrow but now standard? (Such as portions of Tennessee Pass, La Veta Pass, other sections I can't think of). Most of the revenue in my mind would come from the many tourists looking to see the past (in a way) by riding over the old D&RGW narrow gauge. Here is a silly thought for ya, how about adding a branch from Denver to the Colorado Railroad Museum, in Golden. (Seeing as they have such a large quantity of classic narrow gauge that really needs to be used).
Now lets say they wanted to add the old Colorado and Southern line to Georgetown (to connect with the Georgetown Loop), this is where the example of the right of way being converted in to interstate roads comes into play, as most of the interstate is either on or following the old narrow gauge right of way, so they would have to find a entirely new route, just to make the connection and it would cost tons of money.

 

[sawyer811]

Somehow I figured it would be harder than it looks (and it looked hard to begin with!) but hey, a guy can dream, right? personally, I'd love to steam out of La Veta, switch off the standard gauge, and ride up and around Mule Shoe Curve and along Dump Mountain with the Fairlie shoving with all her might on the rear. It's totally an impossible dream, but isn't that what trainz is for anyway?

 

[mjolnir]

Or maybe, you could do this as one (or more) TS routes. The cost there is not nearly as high. And for the cost of a (couple of miles) one could acquire a redundant cinema / movie theater, and a big projection system, and run the route there, perhaps attracting visitors....

ns

 

[wilh]

I'm not so sure about the Mule Shoe, as in a book I have, it shows a recent photograph of the right of way and there is very little evidence of it and it almost doesn't exist, but I would agree that seeing the Fairlie would be something. Although, most of the 2-ft gauge right of way that ran alongside the D&RGW over La Veta pass does exist....

 

[sawyer811]

the Mountaineer (No. 15, the Fairlie) was 3ft gauge though...right? that's what is says in Sand And Smoke, the mile-by-mile guide for the SLRG that I bought on the train. And yes, the Mule shoe would take some creative rebuilding to make it safe for trains to pass over it.

EDIT: wait, you mean the mining railway that was laid completely on sandstones. Yeah, that would be cool too, problem is you'd need a 2ft gauge porter or something to run it, and the big obstacle, the bridge they built, burned down at some point (I think, too lazy to dig out Sand and Smoke to confirm).

 

[wilh]

Ah yes, Sand and Smoke, I have that same book. I can't remember the name of the 2ft gauge line and I do think you are right about the bridge burning. I remember seeing the grade for the 2ft line on the opposite side of a steep valley, across from the standard gauge line. Yes, I do believe the Fairlie was 36 in (3ft) gauge. Ah heck, why just do the D&RGW, why not all of the Colorado Narrow Gauge Roads?

 

[sawyer811]

that would be awesome, but my computer would assassinate me if I tried that:hehe: Heck though, it would be cool to board the C&S at Denver Union Station, steam down to Como, up through the Alpine Tunnel, down into Gunnison, and switch to the D&RGW. then it's up Marshall Pass, down into Salida, sidestep to Poncha, over the pass and through the San Luis valley, down the third rail to Antonito, and...well, you get the rest

 

[Klinger]

Rebuild the C&S from Denver to Silver Plume!!!

I have an itch to take little 12 out of Union Station. Plus I want to smoke out most of downtown....

 

[wilh]

I think it would be really cool to revive all of the small, little known narrow gauge lines, such as the Book Cliff, Silverton Northern, Silverton, Gladstone & Northerly, Florence & Cripple Creek, Gilpin Tramway, Colorado Springs & Cripple Creek District Railway and the Argentine Central. But the one I would really like to see is the Uintah Railway with their amazing narrow gauge mallets. Sawyer811, I must ask, do you live in Colorado?
Three words: Narrow Gauge Circle
I do say, it would be nice to see alot of that equipment at CRRM running in their natural habitat again, especially D&RGW 346. (Such a nice little loco, has got quite a good whistle on her too.)

 

[sawyer811]

Sawyer811, I must ask, do you live in Colorado?

Honestly, no, but my heart will always belong there. the first steam-powered train I ever rode was the Cumbres and Toltec, riding out of Chama. I'll never remember the road engine (I think it was 484) but I'll always remember the helper: little 463, dragging the silver water car of Rotary OM behind her, rigged to spray a jet of water out to put out any brush fires set by cinders from the engines, and roaring like a howitzer, as if she was trying to prove something to someone (IE this guy). Since then, I've been smitten by the Narrow Gauge bug, I fell in love with the magnificent scenery, the remoteness, and the sight of a little engine doing battle with the Rocky Mountains. You can't go far in Colorado without coming across the roadbed of some long-gone railroad, and to me, the whole place just oozes history, the past speaking from abandoned trestles, rotting roundhouses, and discarded boxcars sitting beside the road...if you're just willing to listen. If you do, the haunting whistle of those long-dead Uintah Mallets are never far.

Yes, I may live in the midwest, but Colorado has taken my heart and my mind, and it did it with the howling whistle and barking exhaust of a K-27 Mudhen.

 

[BobCass]

sawyer811: I too have been bitten by the narrow gauge bug..It started when I took the trip from Durango to Silverton..What a exciting trip, loved the scenery..I have a sister in law that lives up in Florrisant and we visit her once in awhile..I love watching for old RR Bed and Imagine what it would be like too see the old engines smoking around..I have often thought it would be nice to see the ole NG line open up again from Durango to Chama..I would imagine it might increase tourism.. :wave:

 

[sawyer811]

Bob, you and I are so much alike...I've dreamed of old steam engines smoking up those grades all my life. On my colorado trip last summer, we drove up from Alamosa to Cripple Creek via Poncha Junction. I knew we were pacing the grade of the connecting line between Alamosa and Salida, but in the flat desert of the San Luis Valley, I didn't see a thing (though my mind--and overactive imagination--was going haywire, LOL). Suddenly, out of nowhere, off to our right, there was the wooden base of an old water tower; I'd know the design anywhere. Then, up came the mountains, and the grade was suddenly very apparent, with numerous concrete and rock abutments of old trestles...I swear i could see a covered turntable somewhere, though that was probably my overactive imagination again. All the while, I could just feel the ground shaking as a pair of K-36s slogged uphill with 90 cars behind them. Heck, I could even see it if I concentrated enough.

gotta love imagination, and the narrow gauge!

 

[wilh]

With the Argentine Central, apparently you can see the grade of the roads switchback while driving aling whatever interstate it is that goes through the mountains. Anyway, I have also read about a location along the highway that you can see it, but I still have yet to find it. With your covered turntable, you may have very well seen some remains of one.

 

[kws4000]

Well, since someone brought up connecting to Denver...

Denver has a streetcar system (?) or is in the works of building one. Add a third rail, and let your mind wander...

BTW, have I missed something? Someone mentioned a "Fairlie" , and I don't recall one ever being used (in the US) except the JANUS sampled on the Central Pacific and used briefly on the LV or some other eastern coal line.

One other thing: was there ever a 0-4-4-0 used in Colorado? I found a pic of one that claimed to work in CO but I can't find the site again.

 

[sawyer811]

There was a Fairlie used by the D&RG (precursor of the D&RGW) No. 15, the "Mountaineer." It was an 0-4-4-0 that was more or less shoved down General Palmer's throat, and when the Fairlie works in England pressured the line to buy more of their locos, a race was set up between a Baldwin 4-4-0 and the Mountaineer over Veta pass. When a D&RG engineer named William Walk and Master Mechanic Nat Sample learned of the engine to be used, they modified the steam gauge on the Baldwin to show 130 pounds in the boiler when there was really 180. Thus, the Baldwin easily won the race (which it never could have done if it was running with only 130psi) on apparently less pressure than the Fairlie needed. Presto Chango, out with Fairlie and in with Baldwin! As an endnote, it should be noted that the Mountaineer was only ever used as a pusher on Veta Pass.