A question about "Unfinished Routes"

TucsonCoyote

New member
Tucsoncoyote here, and I had a bit of a question dealing with routes that were unfinished by other folks and who have literally abandoned the projects to sit in the DLS for others to download.

The main question is this:

Is it okay to download an unfinished route that you want to modify or change to a more appropriate level of "Completeness". than what it is in right now.

Let me give an example here.. There's ont the Download Station a route by a creator by the name of Mousefart who created a route called 'PRC' that was initially designed for Trainz (SP3), and has by now had enough assets that are no longer available that it would be considered "Abandoned".

The question is basically is it okay to take such a route and bring it up to say TRS2004 or TRS2006 standards, because of the fact that while some of the older content might be "Outdated" and some of that content might still be useful with slight modifications, wouldn't it be logical to download the layout, work on it bringing it up to 2004 / 2006/ TC Standards and then re-releasing it?

It's just idle thought here, but if anyone wants to discuss this feel free to.

PS-- If I did finish this route, I still would give Mousefart the initial credit for creating such a route. But still the question remains.. are there a lot of Abandoned routes out there?

Tucsoncoyote--
 
First I would suggest to send the creator a PM or an email to ask him/her for permission to finish it. As sometimes/often happens, people for one reason or another do leave TRS or the forum and disappear and can not be contacted but the creator still retains the copyright for his creation. Usually (but not always) there is a readme text in the description or config.txt which for example could state for anyone to upgrade or finish this route and re release it. Then you can do as you please with it.

Courtesy demands to still give the original creator some credit for starting this route :)

Cheers

VinnyBarb
 
After reading the read me, I'm kind of stumped.

Well I got the KUID number and found the readme file in the config, and in fact here's what it says (Verbatim):

Pine Ridge Central (PRC) route for Trainz - v1.0
==========================================
Copyright 2003 by Paul Doty (Mousefart)
pauldoty@optonline.net
-------------------
This route may be hosted on any Trainz related website provided it is in it's original *.cdp file and hasn't been modified in any way.
-------------------
You may merge sections of the Pine Ridge Central route into your own route. If you are going to distribute the route the following conditions must be met:
1. State in the readme that some portions are from the Pine Ridge Central route By Paul Doty.
2. You may not call the route Pine Ridge Central v2, v3, etc.
3. If the route is payware, throw something my way.
4. Auran's 75% rule applies to the PRC route too. You cannot just add a few sidings to the PRC route and upload it as your own. At least 75% of the route must be your own work.
-------------------
There is a chance that in the future, Auran may make changes to the Trainz program that may cause the PRC route to be unusable. If I cannot be reached for a period of 3 months after this change was made then another individual may make the changes needed to make the route operational again. The modified route MUST be uploaded to Download Station using the individual's KUID. The individual may take credit for the modifications but not for the entire route. The route does not become the property of the individual but remains the property of Paul Doty.
------------------
The provisions of this readme file apply to Pine Ridge Central v 1.0 only. The provisions of the readme file for future versions may be different.

What I am interpeting on this:

Now after reading this, this means:

(1) I can't really do anything including adding anyting onto the route , be it either major (or minor) changes to the route, including adding trackage/ Lengtening sidings and/or improving sidings to the route or improving items / industries to be 2004/2006/TC compatible, however:

(2) I can email him, but considering that this route is over 5 years old, and I haven't even seen him post in over 5 years time, it makes me wonder if he's still around the Trainz Forums at all.

(3) Add to that in fact that there has been some content that is no longer available on the DLS, to make the route completely viable, and other content that is badly formated or has faulty config files, that it would need to be removed and/or modified, plus the fact that this would be redistributed under a different name (other than Pine Ridge Cental), plus the fact that there would be no selling of this product (I.E. It would be free for the good of the community,

this means that I'm in a conundrum as to what to do.

After all, this is his route, and by improving it, this would tend to violate the rules.

In short, I guess this route will remain unfinished ad nausum.

So if that is the case, I might as well just try and create my own route rather than expand/modify someone else's route.

At least that's the way I see it..

I'll try a PM first, then an email then barring that, what's left for me to do?

Tucsoncoyote
 
It would seem #4 and the part after answer you.

For missing items, missing textures are easy to see, other content I replace with something like an antenna then look for where they are and sub something else.

I don't see why you cannot do your #1 as #4 on his list would allow it.

Just add a few baseboards or do a small module add-on as well. You could also replace items you have found with more recent work.

And still try to email him.:)
 
Eric, aka Storknest, if you're interested, Terry Franks made a bunch of placeholder kuids, very easy to spot as they are a BIG checkered exclamation points. They're available when you download Trainz Objects. The great things is there's bridges, junctions, industries, splines, etc. Just change the kuid number in the folder, then import it.
Norm
 
Actually, it is very simple for you to improve or finish this route. As the original creator states you must add at least 75% of extra work and/or alterations to it. I do not know how "unfinished" this route is but if any/some textures, building, tracks, signals etc. are not done on it, just add these. If 75% of improvements have not been met by such, just add some extra base boards or some UM modules to the route to meet these 75% of extras.

If you intend to upload this improved route to the DLS, name this route anything you like and just add a few lines into your description stating this is an improvement of the original creator's route with his/her name included.

This covers you as the original creator intended it with his creation's improvement and you have what you want.

Easy :D

Cheers

VinnyBarb
 
There is a chance that in the future, Auran may make changes to the Trainz program that may cause the PRC route to be unusable.
+Surely the above lines means you can alter it to bring it up to 04 standards. As most of the content used cannot be downloaded into 04 or later versions or as stated no longer available. By doing the alterations you would only be making it useable in the later versions of trainz.
 
...
wouldn't it be logical to download the layout, work on it bringing it up to 2004 / 2006/ TC Standards and then re-releasing it?
...

No, it wouldn't be logical.

Whilst nobody and nothing can prevent you from doing what you like with downloaded routes on your own PC, in your own time and to your own tastes - attempting to or proposing to then upload a modified or 'improved' versions just isn't worth the likely hassles and heartache.

Setting aside the amount of grovelling and boot-licking you will have indulge in (which you have already alluded to), in today's World control-freaks outnumber the truly interested community ten-to-one. You will be under pressure to comply with poorly worded or entirely unitelligible, but otherwise completely unenforeable 'licences' (unenforceable except by way of Auran removing a modified version from the DLS - which is bit of a joke when one considers that Auran's main problem at present seems to be getting stuff onto the DLS in the first place).

Mind you, I don't care. I have heaps of modified, altered, merged and improved routes which provide me with hours of enjoyment. I am, of course, grateful to the originators but, because of the issues that I have pointed to, seeking to upload one or any of them would be illogical.
 
It's a matter of respect vs principle..

No, it wouldn't be logical.

Whilst nobody and nothing can prevent you from doing what you like with downloaded routes on your own PC, in your own time and to your own tastes - attempting to or proposing to then upload a modified or 'improved' versions just isn't worth the likely hassles and heartache.

Setting aside the amount of grovelling and boot-licking you will have indulge in (which you have already alluded to), in today's World control-freaks outnumber the truly interested community ten-to-one. You will be under pressure to comply with poorly worded or entirely unitelligible, but otherwise completely unenforeable 'licences' (unenforceable except by way of Auran removing a modified version from the DLS - which is bit of a joke when one considers that Auran's main problem at present seems to be getting stuff onto the DLS in the first place).

Mind you, I don't care. I have heaps of modified, altered, merged and improved routes which provide me with hours of enjoyment. I am, of course, grateful to the originators but, because of the issues that I have pointed to, seeking to upload one or any of them would be illogical.

Noted...

But then still that leaves a rather odd conundrum for the creator of the route who originally released it. Since this is his route and he sees it fit to abandon it, then my question might next be to Auran as to why they allow content that is outdated, or that is no longer useable onto the download station. That's the real point of this question.

Now granted some folks never really went beyond either Trainz SP3 or even UTC, yet others who like myself have moved on to other later versions (The latest being 2006), It would seem logical to some point for the folks at Auran to either remove old or outdated material. After all there is still a lot of good content out there, and I'm not afraid to use it. The only issues I see are if there are content that is either faulty or non usable.. Since no one will bring these up to code, this really then makes the point of my arguement moot when it comes to this layout in particular.. That's why I always have alternate plans and ideas for a layout if it seems to be non-negotiable.

However as has been pointed out by StorkNest, the 75% rule does apply here and in fact that's just my point, as I was going to merge the original route into a larger and even more expanisve run that would well exceed the 75% rule (and this would be with or without the original route, as the run would not be doubled or even tripled but rather.. quadrupled. (Think of the original route getting a major makeover with 2004/2006 and an even longer run with portals eventually tying up the loose ends.

I was just asking out of respect to the original owner and since It's been long and far since he's made an appearance here, it is rather odd that even such a route would exist even with faulty content (though as pointed out by Vinnybarb, content can be replaced with alternate content.

So really as far as I'm concerned, I do have the same attitude but I do wish to respect the original creator's wishes. If he never ever wanted folks to touch his route, well that's his choice but as clearly stated he does allow it..

Sounds convoluted but still in the end, either with or without the PRC Expansion module, I probably will go on and do my own route.. for others to enjoy.. if they want to beta it, that's fine with me, as I'm not planning to get any money out of the deal.. Think of this as a hobby, and not a job.. that's how I see the work...(And speaking of such.. I might as well get startted on this one large section of route i am working on.. initially 1500 boards total but when it's finally weeded down it'll probably be 300 to 400 in all..

(time to get out the cows, and begin "Gandydancing...with Cows."

Tucsoncoyote--
 
if you want to take my route, the "Fairford Branch" and finish it you're welcome to. Though the route needs a ton of work, since only the trackplans are accurate.

Sometimes modelers will upload unfinished routes when people keep asking for them. Other times they (as in my case) are getting new computers and can't work anymore.

Still, you should try to ask before uploading something that another person started.
________
Emillia
 
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There is a chance that in the future, Auran may make changes to the Trainz program that may cause the PRC route to be unusable. If I cannot be reached for a period of 3 months after this change was made then another individual may make the changes needed to make the route operational again. The modified route MUST be uploaded to Download Station using the individual's KUID. The individual may take credit for the modifications but not for the entire route. The route does not become the property of the individual but remains the property of Paul Doty.

If the route is genuinely not useable in TRS, then this clause would make it reasonable (after attempting to make contact) to upload a fixed, but otherwise largely unaltered version of the route. Otherwise, the 75% clause would have to apply.

It's actually good to see a creator put so much thought into their licence conditions.

BTW - what items have you found that are outdated? Not many things on the DLS don't work at all, and most of them are fixable.
 
if you want to take my route, the "Fairford Branch" and finish it you're welcome to. Though the route needs a ton of work, since only the trackplans are accurate.

Sometimes modelers will upload unfinished routes when people keep asking for them. Other times they (as in my case) are getting new computers and can't work anymore.

Still, you should try to ask before uploading something that another person started.

I was wondering what had happened to this one!

As I've abandoned my Norwegian project largely due to a brain burp on my part, I'm thinking about the Fairford branch as a more humble project (well, Oxford and the yards would be a real challenge without some rationalisation). However would probaly look to start over with Transdem for the terrain. Have got plenty of reference material apart from the gradient profile, which I need to track down again.

Reading this thread though, glad I'm not the only one who sometimes finds it difficult to see a project through to the end. I've got a catalogue of vapourware behind me now for MSTS, TRS and KRS of routes started with great enthusiasm, but somehow fell by the wayside for one reason or another.
 
Just making a point and not trying to start an argument.
Just how do you judge a 75% change to a route ???
How much time did the original creator put into it in the first place and how do you judge change anyway.
Using a utility you could change all the track in five minutes, labour wise you have done virtually nothing but you have made a big impact on the route, change the sky ditto, change the water colour ditto, yet you could spend plenty of hours changing objects, moving roads around a bit etc etc, and change the looks only marginally.
One way with a small 2 or 3 board route would be to just enlarge it with nothing but water, so a 2 board would become an 8 board, bingo 75% change :hehe:

In other words the 75% rule is a joke and should be ignored by both sides.

Now my take on this, and remember it is MY opinion only, is that if an unfinished route is uploaded to the dls it is done so with the expectation that someone will download it (duh) and finish it, and you cannot expect them to then NOT upload it to the dls again, so as long as they are given the credit for the first half of the work I don't see why you need their permission via email.
That would be like me demanding anyone that uploads a route with my content on it must ask my permission first, or is my content not as 'protected' as theirs :'(

Cheers David
 
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