A little help with the surveyor

[VonBauer]

I recently got TRS22 and wanted to create my own route, but the surveyor is so complicated it's making my head hurt. I don't know how to add/update ground, rotate the locomotives and attach locomotives to one another. I tried attaching two freight locos but it just passed through the other one in a transparent manner. I'm new to this whole thing, so everything is alien to me. Can anyone explain how to use the surveyor properly?

 

[pware]

two freight locos but it just passed through the other one in a transparent manner

A loco or rolling stock object passing straight through another is a sign that they are not attached to the same track. Do you have two different track segments installed on top of each other or very close to each other?

You did not state which version of TRS22 you have - TRS22PE which has both Surveyor 2.0 and Surveyor Classic or TRS22 (standard) that has just Surveyor Classic

Surveyor 2.0 is a steep learning curve, Surveyor Classic is easier to use but very limited (in my opinion) compared to Surveyor 2.0.

As you are new to Trainz may I suggest a starting point for both Surveyor 2.0 and Surveyor Classic - the Trainz Wiki Page at Route_and_Session_Basics.

 

[VonBauer]

A loco or rolling stock object passing straight through another is a sign that they are not attached to the same track. Do you have two different track segments installed on top of each other or very close to each other?

You did not state which version of TRS22 you have - TRS22PE which has both Surveyor 2.0 and Surveyor Classic or TRS22 (standard) that has just Surveyor Classic

Surveyor 2.0 is a steep learning curve, Surveyor Classic is easier to use but very limited (in my opinion) compared to Surveyor Classic.

As you are new to Trainz may I suggest a starting point for both Surveyor 2.0 and Surveyor Classic - the Trainz Wiki Page at Route_and_Session_Basics.

I don't know for the tracks, but my TRS22 is PE, the new surveyor is quite difficult to understand.

 

[Frank_Dean]

As the initiator of the thread has said, surveyor 2.0 is quite difficult and this is said by one who started with Trainz 2004 and from the beginning and who got me hooked by the simplicity of the old surveyor.
The manuals to learn surveyor 2.0 apart from being only in the imperial language, are quite complex, simpler versions are needed or for dummies and that first explains what was done in surveyor 1.0 and now how to do it in surveyor 2.0. And leave for later, or a second part of the manuals, the new features or new tools of surveyor 2.0
Sorry if my opinion bothers the creators of the surveyor 2.0 manuals, but they are very complex and exhaustive.
I miss when you used to buy the physical version of the game in which a manual of the game was included in the local language of the country where it was sold.

 

[pware]

I miss when you used to buy the physical version of the game in which a manual of the game was included in the local language of the country where it was sold.

The supply of physical (printed) manuals was killed off by printing costs and the distribution of software through the internet. I doubt that they will ever return.

Written manuals in digital format (e.g. PDF, Web Pages, Wiki Media, etc) still needs human writers (if you ignore AI) and that is both time consuming and expensive (if done by professional writers). Add to that the need for constant updates as new features are added, bugs are fixed, new bugs appear, etc, in each new release or SP update of Trainz then the task is even more complicated and time consuming. The How to Use Surveyor 2.0 Tools Wiki Page, for example, was started well over 2 years ago, months before it appeared on the Wiki, and is still being regularly updated.

On the question of the lack of language options, online translation services are becoming better but probably still far from perfect.

If the style or format of the Surveyor 2.0 manuals are too "complex and exhaustive" and need "dummies versions" then anyone can contribute by creating and adding their own pages. That is the advantage of the Trainz Wiki!

No, I am not offended by your opinion of the manuals. All opinions are welcome.

Peter

 

[pware]

the new surveyor is quite difficult to understand

Yes, it took me about a year to make the change from Surveyor Classic to Surveyor 2.0 after 20+ years of using Surveyor Classic.

Perhaps you should start a brand new route by using Surveyor Classic (select Edit in Surveyor Classic from the Surveyor Tools menu - the third icon at the top of the screen). Select the Track icon (4th icon on the right of the screen) then select and and lay some track in a loop (it does not matter which track). Add a locomotive and some wagons (bottom icon on the right) to get the "feel" of how the program works.

 

[autodctr]

I still use Surveyor 1 for almost everything....sooo much easier. Sur 2 I use mostly for moving large amounts of earth and for covering large amounts of earth with grass, dist, etc. It is especially nice for just putting a "hint" of dirt or grass somewhere....no sharp edges.

 

[pware]

I still use Surveyor 1 for almost everything....sooo much easier.

It could have been a simple move for N3V to drop the option to continue using Surveyor Classic after Surveyor 2.0 appeared - as some other software developers had done when a "radical" new interface or similar was introduced. But to their credit they did not - but, as I am sure someone will point out, that could still happen in the future. Does anyone here miss using MS-DOS or Adobe Fireworks? When MS introduced the Ribbon into their Office products, I was "cussin' and cursin'" for quite a while until it finally grew on me.

As I posted above it took me about a year to make the switch from Classic to S2.0 - it is a steep and long learning curve if you cut your Trainz "rail ties" using Classic. I am the opposite of @autodctr in that I now use S2.0 for almost everything and very rarely go back into Classic - but each to their own way of doing things.

I would be interested in hearing how other "Trainz newbies", whose first experience of Trainz is using Surveyor 2.0, are finding the experience.

 

[JCitron]

"I would be interested in hearing how other "Trainz newbies", whose first experience of Trainz is using Surveyor 2.0, are finding the experience."

Perhaps it's something like the old saying:

Fools walk where angels fear to tread.

 

[martinvk]

Being one of the "fools" that made the jump to S2.0 early, I now find it much easier to use and more able to do the common tasks in Surveyor. Says one who had been using the Classic version since the early days of Trainz.

 

[pware]

Fools walk where angels fear to tread.

To many people change is frustrating, it can even appear dangerous, and is to be avoided at all costs. Even when that change brings major improvements.

Trainz back in 2002, using what is now called "Classic", was a learning curve - as is all new software. The later addition of sessions, interactive industries and layers were all new frustrating changes. Even today, all those years later, some users still struggle with layers or even avoid them completely. A few will not add sessions to their routes.

The fact that users can still create workable routes without using layers, industries, sessions (and Surveyor 2.0) speaks volumes for the flexibility of the Trainz product.

 

[martinvk]

The fact that users can still create workable routes without using layers, industries, sessions (and Surveyor 2.0) speaks volumes for the flexibility of the Trainz product.

Or that Trainzers are very clever and ingenious people.

 

[UncleBuck]

I haven't used anything but S2 for ages now.
I use the layers extensively when modifying a route as I find it easier to just hide things I am not working on.
I tend to place bare industries and build the scenery around it, so sometimes it involves placing something directly over the industry track.
Without layers, being able to change the industry configuration was a nightmare due to always selecting the scenery rather than the actual industry.
At a minimum I always have four layers (route, scenery, trees and session), but when converting an old route it is not uncommon for me to use many more before I eventually narrow it back down to the basic four.
When I first started using S2, I had a lot trouble making turnouts or yards look correct, so I used to switch back to the classic surveyor to do them.
Now after persisting, I can very easily (easier than classic) quickly whip these up in seconds.

My suggestion to anyone who is afraid of S2 is to stick with it as you will eventually come to grips with it and rarely need to go back to classic.
It can take a while, but it is worth it in the end (this coming from a 64 yo who loves tinkering)

 

[pware]

My suggestion to anyone who is afraid of S2 is to stick with it as you will eventually come to grips with it and rarely need to go back to classic.

Well stated @UncleBuck. On the matter of layers, my current project has about 30 of them - you can never have enough!!!

 

[pitmilly]

I recently made the move to Trainz 22 PE Build 129335, principally to explore the supposed(?) advantages of Surveyor 2.0
Accepting the inevitable learning curve, I have cloned an HD copy of a WIP and have been using Surveyor 2.0 to fine tune the existing terrain, particularly track cuttings and embankments to improve on the limitations imposed by the 10 and 5 mm grid of the Standard Classic Surveyor. This is just my "one step at a time" approach and I have been reverting to standard Surveyor for other ammendments/additions.

Am I correct in thinking that that this now part HD cloned route can now only be played on Trainz 22 PE and above? I ask because I have other WIP's which I have shared with other Trainz 22 users.

 

[JCitron]

I recently made the move to Trainz 22 PE Build 129335, principally to explore the supposed(?) advantages of Surveyor 2.0
Accepting the inevitable learning curve, I have cloned an HD copy of a WIP and have been using Surveyor 2.0 to fine tune the existing terrain, particularly track cuttings and embankments to improve on the limitations imposed by the 10 and 5 mm grid of the Standard Classic Surveyor. This is just my "one step at a time" approach and I have been reverting to standard Surveyor for other ammendments/additions.

Am I correct in thinking that that this now part HD cloned route can now only be played on Trainz 22 PE and above? I ask because I have other WIP's which I have shared with other Trainz 22 users.

If I'm remembering this correctly, HD Terrain works only in Plus and is read-only in TRS22 PE. If the routes are imported into regular TRS22, they are converted to 5-meter grid terrain. Editing an HD terrain in TRS22 PE, will convert that route to 5m or 10m when edited.

 

[pware]

Relying on my memory as well ...

If I'm remembering this correctly, HD Terrain works only in Plus and is read-only in TRS22 PE. If the routes are imported into regular TRS22, they are converted to 5-meter grid terrain.

... that is correct.

Editing an HD terrain in TRS22 PE, will convert that route to HD Terrain.

From my understanding, a HD route can be "played" in TRS22PE but it has to be converted to a lower resolution (10m or 5m) to be edited in TRS22PE.

 

[JCitron]

Relying on my memory as well ...

... that is correct.

From my understanding, a HD route can be "played" in TRS22PE but it has to be converted to a lower resolution (10m or 5m) to be edited in TRS22PE.

Thanks, I was a bit confused there. I edited my post accordingly.

 

[pitmilly]

Thank you John, Peter.
Have moved on to 22 Plus.

 

[skittlekicks]

When I got Trainz 22 PE (my first ever venture into the world), I found that Surveyor 2.0 was way more organized and less clunky than it's classic counterpart. For me it was less than 5 minutes to learn how to find things, but don't get me wrong I got really PO's when things didn't work like I expected (splines like track were my nemesis to keep them from becoming wavy) I am aware 2.0 was the newest version and a big selling point for the franchise, there is still a lot of conversation from the long time Trainzers and those of us new to the world.

Many here will point you to the Trainz Wiki to learn the basics of Surveyor, and I find it useful if there is something I scratch my head over. I'm also VERY stubborn and I refuse to let a game force me to rage quit (which Trainz has done to me a few times).

You do end up creating your own techniques for route development, and there is no wrong way to build a route. If you love it, then it's as it should be. Never be afraid to delete things and start again. That's even if you have hundreds of hours in your route. I've had to fully delete routes because they became corrupted (never figured it out). This is a building block to becoming an expert (defined by 10,000 hours of doing a thing).

Experimenting with your creation is very satisfying. Use your camera hot keys to go walking level and explore from that POV. You'll get a better understanding if you need to add or remove something. If your scene feels cluttered, then just remove assets. If it feels lacking, then add things.

I do disagree that Surveyor 2.0 has a difficult learning curve. It may be for those that only ever used Surveyor Classic (aka S10), but for me it was not hard. It's like Photoshop in it's tool and pallet layout in my book. I never felt a need to buy into the subscription model of Trainz (I view this as game rental). Nothing that Plus offered was enough to convince me to get it. I don't need HD graphics when only one section of the Trainz community can enjoy it. I also didn't want to deal with beta testing new thing (instability is aggravating for me). Too much risk and little reward for my money. This just my view.

Finally pace yourself. Don't do what I did at the peak of playing (136 hours over two weeks or 9 hours daily. Also played 40 hours with no sleep). Take breaks, get rest, don't obsess over the creative process and just have fun.