A general observation about routes...

[BLACKWATCH]

You're not that witty either, even though you think you are.

Enjoyed your ban, my good sir?

I may have deserved that ban, but isn't it against CoC to actually refer & gloat over it ?

Learn to understand the language that you presume to type (speak I doubt ), and you will understand my last post.

 

[nicky9499]

Says the one who came in here unprovoked, insulted people and then gave everyone the finger. Don't bother editing your post anymore, I've reported it and will not participate any further in this pointless altercation.

You know, if you had just wanted to flip me off, you could've sent a PM.

 

[BLACKWATCH]

I thought you'd wait till I logged out.
Yes report it, that's how you got me the last one (see above gloat), but as for "insulted people and then gave everyone the finger", I didn't insult people, I just gave my opinion (to which the law says I'm entitled), to your post with a little humour (lost on some), as for the finger, that was just for you.

 

[ryanstrains]

Guys using vulgar language or images is not acceptable behavior.

 

[cvkiwi]

I come on here to learn something and all I see is people just being dumb
This is TRAINZ NOT PLAY CENTER
Grow up
cms

 

[Vern]

Back to the OP and further to my initial response... Just bear in mind that what one person sees as poor quality may be someone's pride and joy that they have laboured on for weeks and months. There are many routes I would happily see produced in a not altogether perfect state, than never see at all.

Most route builders, certainly myself, strive towards improvement and constructive criticism is the best way to encourage better results. Also, again not making excuses for shoddy work, anything offered up to the DLS is freeware, the author gets no reward and in addition to their time may have invested considerable money or research into the project. (Although I guess that level of interest probably ensures they are more clued up and articulate when it comes to using the editors). We need to be encouraging more freeware, not putting people off or Trainz will end up like Railworks where 95% of the add-on routes are payware, at £25 a shot, with freeware all but dead.

 

[pware]

There have been many good points made in this thread (ignoring the "flame war" posts) and I find myself agreeing with Vern (above), with Hot_Box_Detector's original post and with Davesnow and others. It was a few years of using Trainz and creating my own layouts before I summoned up the courage to upload a layout. I learned my creation skills, such as they were back then, by looking at the work of others.

Looking back at my first DLS upload (April 2004) with what I now know, I think I would have deleted it shortly after downloading it if i had obtained it from the DLS. It was another 2 years before I posted my second layout. Most of us are not professional railroad engineers or track layers, or graphic artists for that matter. We learn from our experiences and past mistakes, and sometimes those past mistakes end up on the DLS (oh for a "deleted by creator" option for uploaded assets).

 

[Racn]

I have found what the OP and the next posters were saying, both informative and encouraging. As a creator in training with 1 1/2 years of Trainz experience, I have 0 uploads because I knew they just weren't good enough, and there were way to many AI headaches.
My current fictitious route has given me many hours of training, having tracked the entire map twice. The second track laying chose a JR track, and with improved switches and curves, the annoying switch derailing last few cars syndrome, has dissappeared. (approximately 1000 km of track laying)
Still got tons to learn, still enjoying the heck out of it.
Link to pic of fictitious route http://www.4shared.com/photo/rm10J56nce/screenshot185.html

 

[rickf77]

Yeah, it's not easy making a really good route. I have no plans of ever uploading my route (if I ever get it finished). This is also my second attempt at the route. I'm liking it a lot better than the first time. I think what I'm best at (not great by a long shot) is doing the scenery. I hope that I will get good enough in that dept. that perhaps someday I will be able to help out with one of these routes that a group of people work on. Until, and if that ever happens, there is nothing I can do to pay back the community. I feel pretty bad about that, but what's the sense in uploading a piece of crap? There's enough of that already.

Cheers .... Rick

 

[ex-railwayman]

I agree with most of what has been stated already, especially, by Dave Snow and Vern. In all the years that I've downloaded Trainz routes, chiefly freeware offerings, I have to say the one thing that VERY few folks do is get it beta tested before they release it. I've done a lot of beta testing over the years on Trainz for various content creators, I always give my 2 penneth regarding what I consider needs to be rectified before the community see it, it saves on embarrassing comments for later, still, if those creators aren't bothered about being picked on for making gross errors, floating vegetation, and lots of other faults, that's up to them, but, getting any route looked at by a second pair of eyes before you allow the community to install it is always a bonus, but, very few folks do it, I can't understand why.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

 

[JCitron]

As we've been discussing this issue, I recently opened up some older versions of some routes I worked on and had a good laugh at myself. I thought these were the bee's knees back then, but looking at them now and I wouldn't let them off my hard drive for anyone else to look at! How one improves over the years with a bit of practice.My current work is much improved and I definitely thank the great route builders for leading the way and showing me how it's done. It if wasn't for George Fisher, Dave Snow, Deremmy, and others, my routes would still look awful!

John

 

[Dermmy]

@ John - thanks for the comments

I have to say the one thing that VERY few folks do is get it beta tested before they release it.

Cheerz. ex-railwayman.

...there's a bit more to it than that. I suspect most route builders do in fact get their routes tested, the problem lies in finding good beta testers. Far too many people think the role of a 'beta tester' is to send back one email which says "Gees this is really nice." The route builder sends back an email that says "Aw shucks - Really?" End of beta testing. Wrong approach. Over the year I have built up a small group of testers and we have a mutual trust and respect level that lets them say "Mate - this bit just sucks". My deal with them is that they can tell me anything and I will look at it. Finding testers who will point out the bad bits is hard and it takes time. Finding a tester who will run the same session ten times looking for that one vagrant signal that jams up for no apparent reason on the eleventh run, or who can tell you that you forgot to set the phase on the crossing gate on the south side of the track near MPxx.x is almost impossible.

The other thing I suspect doesn't get done is getting routes 'tested' continually during construction, not just as release approaches. My core testers have a version of my latest effort (Hutchinson KS) already - there is like 5 miles done out of what will be a pretty big route. The thing is though that they can tear that 5 miles apart in detail in just a couple of evenings and I can attend to anything that needs 'fixed' straight away. No way can a big route get looked at in that sort of detail if the 'testers' don't get it till the community is clamouring for release.

A 'good' route is as much a credit to good beta testers as it is to the route builder but if there is a 'secret' it is test early and test often. And still expect to miss a lot - I know we do....

Andy

 

[nicky9499]

A picture says a thousand words, so I made a handy picture guide of how to treat Bad Trackwork Intolerance Syndrome...

 

[Vern]

Fair points Nick, but how much of that is down to the bugs and inefficiencies in Surveyor as much as the route builders' efforts to compensate for them?

 

[nicky9499]

Without a doubt, Trainz is a terrible piece of software, but personally I don't think this is a valid excuse for shoddy construction. It is up to the route builder how much effort he or she is willing to put in to achieve a desired quality level.

All of the things I've listed are personal pet peeves. Some are ok with it, some aren't. I'll tell you one thing though; I have yet to come across a single route that does not commit some or all of these errors.

 

[Vern]

Including some of those built in to TS12, as part of the core commercial content! If you can get it to run at all, the Appalachian route has some very dubious track laying in places.

 

[nicky9499]

Precisely. Above all else, trackwork is the most important element of any route (this being a train sim and all). If the creator cannot even be bothered to put in effort in his trackwork, it says a lot about his overall attitude and 9/10 the route is going to be downloaded, looked at for 30 seconds then deleted (or disabled, in the case of built-in content).

It's like building a house with no foundations.

 

[Hot_Box_Detector]

Faster horses, bigger women, better whisky !

Dang!! While I agree with about 50% said here, routes I've DL or layouts that have all this so called realism, don't run well on my PC. So in my humble opinion less is best, as the ruining of the TRAIN,s being the main purpose. I've yet to find any route that can run the traffic { including my own } I'd like with high detailed content, without a considerable loss of enjoyment due to frame rate lag. As one who enjoys both yard switching and main line running,( with a lot of traffic and static cars) this has been a challenge in my own route.

With a new PC and new trainz coming, I have my fingers crossed this isn't going to get worse?

RW:
Trainz is the main reason I have upgraded my PCs over the years. Like you, I hope the new era engine will use PC resources more responsibly... But, It's always a wait & see case. I just bought a new PC. Yes, another Dell, 8700/8GB memory,i5 core, @ 3.2GHZ & a low end Nvidia something or another video card. I did this so I could change the video card at will, as this seems to be the big bottleneck. My TS12 routes all run smoothly for now.

Didn't we go to the moon & back 45 years ago with 4K of memory? Now, that's some programming !:wave:

 

[Hot_Box_Detector]

I've just been reading back thru this thread... Let me say that a very high percentage of routes are JUST FINE. It was not my intent to start a flame war here...
Thanks, MD, K4TQF

 

[Railwoodman]

After rereading and seeing what some have said and about track laying and whats consider good and bad in route building, I'm struck to how much this this discussion bears similarly to the disagreements of some of the model RR clubs I no longer belong to had. As for prototype track, with just the PRR as a guide, there's many examples I still can't be-leave existed as laid. And when others model this track, were condemned for there efforts. In trainz there are what I find to be great routes, or layout that have what has been said here as unfinished or poorly done track work. Then don't run them.

If a stander is to be made, then lets start with what can be enjoyed to all that buy the simulator trainz. I have gone thought three PC, and a forth being made. And I have no expectation that I will be able to run the traffic I would like to see with out a considerable amount of more money with the top content that now available. In the pic's shown as issues with route builder, I have had the experience of spending hours on construction, only to go back to find these issues in my route, they were not done intentionally. And with some of the larger routs, would be a job in itself to find and fix. The same issues with trees, new content while looking more realist, make the frame rate unacceptably, and a job to change out to run the layout or session. So it falls to ones goal of what you wants to represent in trainz. Run what you like, and have consideration for the most part given freely for enjoyment.

I am contentedly impressed what can be done and has been done in trainz, these top line routs are of rare talent. But to hold all us to these standers is in my opinion is not except able. It's a hobby, not a job.