Time to face the music.

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Ben1337

Trainz operator
I come back from being off the forums for a long time, and I take some time browsing the forums... And what I see is thread-upon-thread about one problem or another... maybe some non-related threads but these problems especially occour with the off-PC versions such as Trainz Android, Trainz iPad and Trainz Mac.

Is it only me, or does this seem a bit of a problem?

What I mean is, is that what I see... is that the company's producing one game after another and expect the users to TEST a game THEY paid for, and expect the users to create workarounds for a buggy game THEY made... to "fix" the problem.

An expansion onto this: What are we really paying for? Sure, we are paying for Multiplayer, the DLS and some bug fixes...

That's it... that's all... all of the rest of the stuff is freeware including routes and content.

I'm not sure but trainz hasn't changed its looks for 10 years... sure they spit shined up some of their old content.

Just to prove how serious this gets, you can export stuff from TS2012 into TS2010, no major problems... The problems were just missing assets and the content that was broken in TS2010, you could change the build number to TS2010's build number and it would work fine.

So in the space and time between TS2010 and TS2012, what was actually done?

If you paid for a game... You'd expect it to work (not melt your computer's CPU, lag horribly with a STANDARD computer (YES, speedtrees ARE included)), wouldn't you?

With trainz, this is not the case, with trainz you could need to have an entire computer DEDICATED to it for it to run optimally. (in other words, you would have to dole LOADS more money to be able to play the game effectively.)

As for another aspect, I tried to give a friend a copy of a game which I didn't need... But it seems that I can't even be nice to a friend without auran getting on your back and denying the friend that I GAVE the game to DLS access.

So... (In my opinion,) According to my answer, what we are buying is effectively a USER-DRIVEN game, a game which helps its own community without the help of auran (practically, this does not always happen), the game's creator.

You know why this is? It's because all I see are WORKAROUNDS on the forum and not actual FIXES which actually FIX the problem once and for all.

People take their own time time creating these workarounds for users to use, not the company, the company's just there to subsidise the game and guide where it's going to go next.

In NO other game I have seen a game actually corrupt its own database.

Keeping in mind that trainz hasn't changed graphically in the last 11 years.

A thought came into mind, when did trainz win "game of the year"?

So, with all of this in mind, I ask the question again: What are we actually buying here?
 
Really? Did you really need to reopen the hundredth pointless debate thread? Really, is that all you have to do? Why not use the search feature and find one of a hundred other threads that debated this. Let's save some bandwidth.

Hey, look everyone has a right to say their piece, but this has been debated ad nauseum and past the point of ridiculousness.

Mods please close this thread before it gets locked like all the others seem to.
 
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Change is in the air.

RRSignal said:
Really? Did you really need to reopen the hundredth pointless debate thread? Really, is that all you have to do? Why not use the search feature and find one of a hundred other threads that debated this. Let's save some bandwidth.

Hey, look everyone has a right to say their piece, but this has been debated ad nauseum and past the point of ridiculousness.

Mods please close this thread before it gets locked like all the others seem to.
Click to expand...
Well... If it has been debated so much, when why do we seem to support it?

I mean if it has been brought up so many times, don't you think something should be done? Because I feel the users on this form have done a lot on this game to keep it alive.

I know I'm not standing around here watching time repeat its self in this once-loved forums and game (from the way I see it mind you, I don't like the game the way I used to love it). I am going to try to change auran's tune or at least unleash these forum's potential. I wonder if I can have any volunteers that might help change this game into something better. Because the users... are great, this forum's just great... Great teamwork, great abilities.... It's just the game.:D

Added: oh, and by the way, it doesn't TAKE bandwidth, searching TAKES bandwidth and server processing time.
 
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Ben1337 said:
I come back from being off the forums for a long time, and I take some time browsing the forums... And what I see is thread-upon-thread about one problem or another... maybe some non-related threads but these problems especially occour with the off-PC versions such as Trainz Android, Trainz iPad and Trainz Mac.
Click to expand...

Hello Ben and welcome back. There is nothing new with problems being reported, has been going on for 10+ years.

Is it only me, or does this seem a bit of a problem?
Click to expand...

Again, nothing new.

What I mean is, is that what I see... is that the company's producing one game after another and expect the users to TEST a game THEY paid for, and expect the users to create workarounds for a buggy game THEY made... to "fix" the problem.
Click to expand...

Many people have not experienced problems. It may be unfair to say that N3V deliberately publishes new games without testing. Also, that may upset beta testers who devoted countless hours to provide a good game experience for all users.

An expansion onto this: What are we really paying for? Sure, we are paying for Multiplayer, the DLS and some bug fixes...
Click to expand...

Many people wanted MP and N3V responded to these requests. And, N3V issues hot fixes and patches to correct possible errors.


That's it... that's all... all of the rest of the stuff is freeware including routes and content.
Click to expand...

No one here is privy to the contracts made with N3V and the Content Creators.

I'm not sure but trainz hasn't changed its looks for 10 years... sure they spit shined up some of their old content.
Click to expand...

Is that a bad thing?


Just to prove how serious this gets, you can export stuff from TS2012 into TS2010, no major problems... The problems were just missing assets and the content that was broken in TS2010, you could change the build number to TS2010's build number and it would work fine
Click to expand...

I fail to see your problem.

So in the space and time between TS2010 and TS2012, what was actually done?
Click to expand...

Well, as you said above, N3V added MP and better graphics, etc. etc.


If you paid for a game... You'd expect it to work (not melt your computer's CPU, lag horribly with a STANDARD computer (YES, speedtrees ARE included)), wouldn't you?
Click to expand...

For many people, it works just fine. N3V details system requirements up-front, so if people do not have the a PC that supports these changes, no one is telling them to buy the new product.

With trainz, this is not the case, with trainz you could need to have an entire computer DEDICATED to it for it to run optimally. (in other words, you would have to dole LOADS more money to be able to play the game effectively.)
Click to expand...

Again, N3V is NOT telling people to buy new PC's.

As for another aspect, I tried to give a friend a copy of a game which I didn't need... But it seems that I can't even be nice to a friend without auran getting on your back and denying the friend that I GAVE the game to DLS access.
Click to expand...

Nothing new there. Of course, you could let your friend use you login name and password.

So... (In my opinion,) According to my answer, what we are buying is effectively a USER-DRIVEN game, a game which helps its own community without the help of auran (practically, this does not always happen), the game's creator.
Click to expand...

Always has been a user driven game. N3V does support the Community. Perhaps in your absence from these forum you may have missed those N3V posts that help users.

You know why this is? It's because all I see are WORKAROUNDS on the forum and not actual FIXES which actually FIX the problem once and for all.
Click to expand...

Then you may have missed all the hot-fixes and patches that correct issues reported by users.

People take their own time time creating these workarounds for users to use, not the company, the company's just there to subsidise the game and guide where it's going to go next.
Click to expand...

And people are willing to help other users. Has been that way for 10+ years.


In NO other game I have seen a game actually corrupt its own database.
Click to expand...

If you think about it, it may be the users who corrupt their database by making changes without experience.

Keeping in mind that trainz hasn't changed graphically in the last 11 years.
Click to expand...

Many people are happy with the graphic changes made in TS12.


A thought came into mind, when did trainz win "game of the year"?
Click to expand...

What year? Also, it may be a marketing tool.


So, with all of this in mind, I ask the question again: What are we actually buying here?
Click to expand...

People are buying a game that makes them happy.

Regards,
 
I see you have been a member and "user of the software" for quite some time now, and yet you still don't quite get it do you! :p
 
Actually I am quite happy with where the game is now. I recall back in the old days that it would crash constantly. I have never had ts12 crash for me. Not once. The rolling stock and Locomotives have never looked better. It is not the game engine that is the problem it is the learning curve for making quality items. Take a look at Jointed Rail products (just using them because I have a lot of their products) in the game. There are none better in any trains game. The quality of the skin is the make or break in this game and we have varying levels of quality there. Is there room for improvement? Sure but all in all I am very happy with TS12 and will stand by it.
 
mikeman said:
Actually I am quite happy with where the game is now. I recall back in the old days that it would crash constantly. I have never had ts12 crash for me. Not once. The rolling stock and Locomotives have never looked better. It is not the game engine that is the problem it is the learning curve for making quality items. Take a look at Jointed Rail products (just using them because I have a lot of their products) in the game. There are none better in any trains game. The quality of the skin is the make or break in this game and we have varying levels of quality there. Is there room for improvement? Sure but all in all I am very happy with TS12 and will stand by it.
Click to expand...

Same here. I installed it on a system I already had (no stand-alone Trainz system here), applied the released patch (not the hot fix), installed several routes, sessions, and assets available on either the DLS or third-party sites - both freeware and payware, and have never had TS12 crash on me or cause the system to crash.
 
BUGEPEDIA

General trainz:
parts & labour:TS2012:TS MAC:Trainz iPad:Trainz android:Trainz TS2010:
 
That Post... and more to search...

You CANNOT deny the fact that all of these problems aren't auran's fault.

Added: Don't you want something better? Something more stable? Something new that's not based on 2000s coding abilities?
 
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Ben1337 said:
You CANNOT deny the fact that all of these problems aren't auran's fault.

Added: Don't you want something better? Something more stable? Something new that's not based on 2000s coding abilities?
Click to expand...

I didn't look any further than your very first example, the guy has a Dell 530 with XP. So let me see if I get where you're coming from, it's Auran/N3V's fault if someone doesn't have the common sense to know what their system specifications are, and just buys the product that may be beyond what the system can handle and have problems with it, that's Auran/N3V's fault?

Because I can assure you without a doubt, if you meet the minimum system specifications unless there is something seriously wrong with your machine or operating system TS12 will more than likely run like it does on thousands of our machines, flawlessly. I can agree with what others have said, not once has it crashed.

I think the only one who needs to face the music would be people like you who don't own the product beating away on a keyboard night and day trying their best to keep others as miserable as they are.

Obviously it's not working out well for you simply because there's a lot of people who have bought TS12 and you are enjoying it while you're not. I can assure you as a content creator the game engine has changed. Things that we could not do in earlier versions we can do from 2009 forward and there are some things we can do in TS12 that we could never do before.

All you have to look at is jointedrail track that's built in to TS12, you won't see any track like it in 2010 or earlier. A lot of the things I'm creating now are actually light years ahead of what we could make for 2006 are any of the trainz classics. That's just a fact…

But I would suggest next time you want to blame Auran/N3V for supposedly failing that you don't include links from people who admit they don't know anything about computers and list a computer that doesn't meet minimum system specifications when presenting their problem.


If you wish to be taken seriously, that really should be your goal in life :hehe:
 
Batteries not included, accessories sold separately, some assembly required

I agree with many of your points, coming from railworks/railsim and before that MSTS I was appalled at the lunacy that most of the community seems to take for granted. More than half of what I downloaded when I first got Trainz didn't work "out of the box", requires some tinkering and/or google the KUID to get it to work in native mode. I recently downgraded to TS2009 since I assumed the fact that it had lower system requirements meant that I had enough horsepower to muscle past sloppy coding. TS2009 don't work right. TS2009 SP2 don't work right. TS2009 SP3 don't work right. TS2009 SP4 finally fixes the position and orientation bug - but introduces us to the wonders of Secret Agent TADDaemon. Any version from TS2009 SP4 onward I run in a window so I can have Windows solitare open at the same time, which gives me something to do after clicking routes in the main menu or changing tabs in surveyor, while waiting for TADDaemon to finish whatever secret mission he starts that freezes the game for several minutes. Switch to solitare until he's done and the tab pops out or the game unfreezes, I've played a lot of solitare this last year.

Then I come to find out my route and most sessions are listed as TS2009 SP4/TS2010 - and the label is a flaming lie. It all works perfectly in TS2010 and TS12, but in TS2009 SP4 the route has several unknown KUIDs and a bunch of faulty ones, the sessions don't run right because schedule library gets truncated to a single schedule in TS2009 SP4. I even tried redoing a session in 2009 SP4, the game crashes when I try to add the schedule library to the session rules, and you can't activate driver commands that aren't already activated. I would assume someone with TS2009 SP4 would have told me about this long ago, but apparently this community is so used to mediocre failures they just took it for granted that routes and sessions don't work.

Anyway, it could be worse, try Railworks - the latest fiasco makes the complaints on this forum pale in comparison. :hehe:
 
mrscsi said:
I didn't look any further than your very first example, the guy has a Dell 530 with XP. So let me see if I get where you're coming from, it's Auran/N3V's fault if someone doesn't have the common sense to know what their system specifications are, and just buys the product that may be beyond what the system can handle and have problems with it, that's Auran/N3V's fault?

Because I can assure you without a doubt, if you meet the minimum system specifications unless there is something seriously wrong with your machine or operating system TS12 will more than likely run like it does on thousands of our machines, flawlessly. I can agree with what others have said, not once has it crashed.

I think the only one who needs to face the music would be people like you who don't own the product beating away on a keyboard night and day trying their best to keep others as miserable as they are.

Obviously it's not working out well for you simply because there's a lot of people who have bought TS12 and you are enjoying it while you're not. I can assure you as a content creator the game engine has changed. Things that we could not do in earlier versions we can do from 2009 forward and there are some things we can do in TS12 that we could never do before.

All you have to look at is jointedrail track that's built in to TS12, you won't see any track like it in 2010 or earlier. A lot of the things I'm creating now are actually light years ahead of what we could make for 2006 are any of the trainz classics. That's just a fact…

But I would suggest next time you want to blame Auran/N3V for supposedly failing that you don't include links from people who admit they don't know anything about computers and list a computer that doesn't meet minimum system specifications when presenting their problem.


If you wish to be taken seriously, that really should be your goal in life :hehe:
Click to expand...
Oh and like you're the one to say it... With your 4TB hard drive.

That would supposedly last you quite a while, wouldn't it?;)


Added after inn's post: I also couldn't help noticing that you have a 24GB RAm and liquid cooling, so that is why you are running trainz so smooth?

NORMAL PEOPLE DON'T HAVE THAT STUFF! Get with the programme. XD
 
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This is a great post.. I'm not quite sure why your all so upset with him. There so many issues with 2012... and 2010.

I was happy with 2006, it was a game that worked.. Once I switched to TC (There was just flaw after flaw.. I got conned to get the game)... Now I'm using 2010.. It's better but there are still so many flaws..

Basically what NV3 should do is IMPROVE the game on each verison but you never get rid of them.. Blizzard is a GOOD example on how to run a company..

Also the Technical Support is just NEVER around when you need them..(The Forums are a decent place to have ur question answered thou)

Yes MP is a good direction Trainz is going with but it's NOT were it needs to be... Too many flaws and what not.

What NV3 or w/e the company should do is IMPROVE the game for each verison it puts out but never ADD that many new flaws..
 
Inn is right

Personally, I was exited with MP, but when it came out, it wasn't the same... as you said, it had too many flaws...

besides, trainz does need a lot of space, I mean to make content users have to leave content unncompressed and unoptimised, which tends to use LOADS of hard drive (which explains the reason why I said 4TB hard drive, you need to have a lot of HDD to run trainz), you also need a lot of computer power, because none of trainz has been optimised, it's like with every new version, each version becomes less optimised and thus, needs a better computer to run it.

Has anyone thought about the fact about running .cdps straight into the program, rather then having folders and sub folders with the uncompressed files?

Added: Or maybe keep trainz in beta testing for a bit longer?
 
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Ben1337 said:
Personally, I was exited with MP, but when it came out, it wasn't the same... as you said, it had too many flaws...

besides, trainz does need a lot of space, I mean to make content users have to leave content unncompressed and unoptimised, which tends to use LOADS of hard drive (which explains the reason why I said 4TB hard drive, you need to have a lot of HDD to run trainz), you also need a lot of computer power, because none of trainz has been optimised, it's like with every new version, each version becomes less optimised and thus, needs a better computer to run it.

Has anyone thought about the fact about running .cdps straight into the program, rather then having folders and sub folders with the uncompressed files?

Added: Or maybe keep trainz in beta testing for a bit longer?
Click to expand...

God help us if you ever get involved in software development.

Paul
 
Ben1337 said:
Oh and like you're the one to say it... With your 4TB hard drive.

That would supposedly last you quite a while, wouldn't it?;)
Click to expand...

So what does my total hard drive space have to do with anything?

Let me tell you a little story, 3 1/2 years ago I bought a first-generation Dell core I 7, now between then and now little by little and when I could afford it I switched things out a piece at a time. Motherboard, video card, case, power supply, upgraded the RAM, put bigger hard drives in, took the two original drives and put them in an external sata dock, put a $60 liquid cooler on it etc.

And again what is this have to do with anything? Do you expect to buy a PC and use it forever without making any modifications or upgrades? Is that really what you believe and is that really what you're faulting Auran/N3V for?

Because I'm not rich, but I don't expect that for 50 bucks Auran/N3V is going to keep making products that are better that are going to continue to run on an old machine, I don't expect that for a second for 50 bucks.

My original statement still stands, IF your system meets the minimum system specifications (and I'm not talking about trainz diagnostics I'm talking about the written minimum system specifications) AND there isn't any serious problems with your machine or your operating system more than likely TS12 will run for you just like it does for thousands of us, without a hitch…

I know this might be hard for you to understand but it's true. And I really don't know what you're expecting for $50? Auran/N3V can't teach somebody how to use a computer, can't make sure everything in their computer is up-to-date and functioning properly, can't ascertain whether someone meets the minimum system specifications for 50 bucks. It's just not feasible.

The user has to take some responsibility in the process.

Now onto your last statement, actually what I do 4 TB probably won't last me a long time :p but the beauty of my system is I go out and buy a bare sata drive and drop it in the dock without ever turning the power off :hehe:

I'll probably be getting another 1.5 TB in the next couple of months, simply because I do a lot of creating, and each project takes up quite a bit of space.
 
paulhobbs said:
God help us if you ever get involved in software development.

Paul
Click to expand...
Too late, already designing a replacement for trainz with a friend as we speak.:D (E-Mail me for details at ben2337@gmail.com, include a reply E-mail.)

Just need coders (C++ or C# whatever users are more comfortable with, I presume you trainzers are more comfortable with C++?).

I believe I added a little bit of a hint http://forums.auran.com/trainz/showpost.php?p=898856&postcount=4

But that's getting off-topic.:cool:
 
Inn said:
This is a great post.. I'm not quite sure why your all so upset with him. There so many issues with 2012... and 2010.

I was happy with 2006, it was a game that worked.. Once I switched to TC (There was just flaw after flaw.. I got conned to get the game)... Now I'm using 2010.. It's better but there are still so many flaws..

Basically what NV3 should do is IMPROVE the game on each verison but you never get rid of them.. Blizzard is a GOOD example on how to run a company..

Also the Technical Support is just NEVER around when you need them..(The Forums are a decent place to have ur question answered thou)

Yes MP is a good direction Trainz is going with but it's NOT were it needs to be... Too many flaws and what not.

What NV3 or w/e the company should do is IMPROVE the game for each verison it puts out but never ADD that many new flaws..
Click to expand...

Now don't take this the wrong way, but how would you know? You don't own a registered version of TS12.

You're basing your opinion (flawed as it may be) on what a couple of hundred users? The majority of them can be traced back directly to the users system. I know you're not basing your opinion on the thousands if not hundreds of thousands of satisfied customers.

What I would suggest would be actually buying it and using it IF your machine meets the minimum system specifications and IF there's nothing major wrong with your operating system or machine you'll see exactly what the majority of us are talking about...:hehe:
 
mrscsi said:
So what does my total hard drive space have to do with anything?

Let me tell you a little story, 3 1/2 years ago I bought a first-generation Dell core I 7, now between then and now little by little and when I could afford it I switched things out a piece at a time. Motherboard, video card, case, power supply, upgraded the RAM, put bigger hard drives in, took the two original drives and put them in an external sata dock, put a $60 liquid cooler on it etc.

And again what is this have to do with anything? Do you expect to buy a PC and use it forever without making any modifications or upgrades? Is that really what you believe and is that really what you're faulting Auran/N3V for?

Because I'm not rich, but I don't expect that for 50 bucks Auran/N3V is going to keep making products that are better that are going to continue to run on an old machine, I don't expect that for a second for 50 bucks.

My original statement still stands, IF your system meets the minimum system specifications (and I'm not talking about trainz diagnostics I'm talking about the written minimum system specifications) AND there isn't any serious problems with your machine or your operating system more than likely TS12 will run for you just like it does for thousands of us, without a hitch…

I know this might be hard for you to understand but it's true. And I really don't know what you're expecting for $50? Auran/N3V can't teach somebody how to use a computer, can't make sure everything in their computer is up-to-date and functioning properly, can't ascertain whether someone meets the minimum system specifications for 50 bucks. It's just not feasible.

The user has to take some responsibility in the process.

Now onto your last statement, actually what I do 4 TB probably won't last me a long time :p but the beauty of my system is I go out and buy a bare sata drive and drop it in the dock without ever turning the power off :hehe:

I'll probably be getting another 1.5 TB in the next couple of months, simply because I do a lot of creating, and each project takes up quite a bit of space.
Click to expand...
Oh really? and why did you upgrade your machine? Too slow? Underpowered?;)

Yes, I also upgraded mine... but yea... Does everyone have that much stuff in their computers? I don't think so.
 
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