Jasonbarnos special thread to discuss things one on one with Tony Hilliam

[n8phu]

Edit 2: Can we create some sort of subscription plan based on that little diagram you put up where the "happy customers" that make the content that makes your game function get a chunk of the money from the subscription based on how used their content is? I mean, without content creators, the game sure is lacking and if you are going to force users to put their content on the DLS where it "automatically becomes N3V property" in order for it to be used in multiplayer surveyor you should probably pay them as well.

This... Thank You Jade.

The attitude displayed by N3V towards content creators over the past few years has been going downhill and picking up speed.

Before you ask for examples, how about I go ahead and do it.

1. People are allowed to harass content creators.

The N3V board is rife with examples of people being asses towards content creators and nothing getting done about them. We sure can get casino posts removed with abandon, but let luckyducky69 demand a content creators release his stuff early, demand to have his stuff posted to the DLS or luckyducky69 is going to do it himself, or is allowed to ask for content on end that he has no right to (IE payware or content for people who have removed their content from the community) and they are allowed to continue to do it.

I can only imagine the amount of harassment that is going to happen once people figure out that they can't use items that are not on the DLS for multiplayer route building.....

Solution: Maybe strengthen the COC to allow the mods to deal with these people? Quite the simple solution and it costs you no money.

2. Documentation.

While the Wiki has been lackluster in the past, it has had some improvements, but it still needs a lot of work. It is missing a lot of info that we as content creators need to build content. Do I even need to mention the documentation on scripting?
What we need is the nuts and bolts mechanics on how to do something, not "Oh, I created this already, just use mine".

The Content Creation guide is what you want us to follow to create content for this game, and it needs a serious upgrade. An upgrade that N3V was going to charge us for... remember the stretch goals for TANE? Item 18 on this list.

Solution: Give a few volunteers access to all the nuts and bolts with the explicit understanding that EVERYTHING gets posted to the Wiki?

3. Monetizing work done by content creators who made it for free.

Wow, where to start with this one.

Jade Bullet pretty much hit it on the nose. Monetizing work done for free by other and monetizing it is akin to slave labor.

For those with rustled jimmies, see here, definiton 3:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/slave-labor

This is why the many people have stopped contributing to the DLS and set up their own sites. People spend their time to make item for free to share with the community, not to be monetized by N3V and someone who is going to roll in and make a payware session for a route out of items that said person never created in the first place.

Solution: Jade Bullet already provided one

In Summation:

N3V, content creators are not your personal uneducated slave labor force for you to monetize. The more you try, the more of us will leave.
Anyone else feel the same way? Sound off and let them know now.

P.S. Those of you who will run in here right after I post this and try to convert me are wasting their time. I am immune to the kool aid and cat hair.

 

[Zeldaboy14]

The upgrade for the content creation stuff would be REALLY helpful sometime. Seeing how everything is more like mumbo-jumbo and most of it dates back to the UTC and 04 days...

 

[pware]

This, is completely on point.... something about paying subscription fees for a game that is 90%+community content based is just ridiculous. DLS? Fine, I got you, it costs money to run that service, so I can shell out some cash now and again for a fast download ticket, but this no.

Except the subscription option is just an option. Sure, it will not suit everyone but we will have to wait until the price structure and all the "fine print" details are released. It may be (speculating here) that the subscription may include access to all DLC assets. Certainly, anyone who purchases each new Trainz version as it is released (and there are several regular posters here who seem to have every version icon in their header line) may find it cheaper - but we wont know until the details are out so it is pointless to "bag" (or "hype-up") the whole subscription idea at this stage. Nothing wrong with discussion and speculation though.

 

[Ernest2d6]

Well Trainz as a MMO, this sounds great. I play EvE Online and its a subscription base game, I pay $260 a year to pay for two accounts, and sometimes I buy in-game currency. I also buy a train ticket which IMHO is also a form of subscription to download content from creators who give it away for me to download. You old farts think you own the game for $60 give me a break. An MMO will only improve the game over time, because an MMO is always a work that is never finished and only get better over time and it keeps everybody working.

There is always more ways to pay for this without just paying a sub.

1. Game money in Trainz can be earn using a trading activity.
2. Real Money can purchased Monthly Game Time (MGT).
3. Game money can be used to buy monthly game time using a player run market system.
4. Game money can be used to buy content for railroads in the player run market system.
5. Players could form rail road companies to compete against each other.
6. Rail roads can go bankrupt for lack of activity (Not paying the bills).

So some kind of competition is needed to keep the game active and interesting.

So the question is how do we gather the resources? What is the build time? Can we trade between shards? How does interchange work.

E.g. I'm a content creator and I build a saw mill that builds railroad ties. A railroad needs to lay track but it needs the ties, the rail, spikes, and all the other stuff for one mile of track. Another player will lease the mill from me, as a content creator any lease money earn with game money can be converted into time and sold for real money. N3V will tax the sale. The player who leased the mill will contract for logs to feed the mill and the railroad(s), own by other players,will supply the contracted carloads of logs to the mill. The mill will sell carloads of ties through a player run market using a contract. Railroads get game money for moving cars to complete contracts. Everything wears out and needs to be repaired or replaced, this needs to be done to keep the game going.

Lots of luck building this.:udrool:

 

[Vern]

N3V, content creators are not your personal uneducated slave labor force for you to monetize. The more you try, the more of us will leave.
Anyone else feel the same way? Sound off and let them know now.

+1 from me on that.

Well if you're lucky you might get a free tee-shirt out of it but royalties or any sort of financial reparation - forget it!

The one thing these events have incentivized me to do is to re-load TS2010 and have a go at making a route in the original unpatched version using only built in(or (as a last resort) my own items. That is pure standalone for if/when N3V kick the bucket and the patches and DLS are no longer there, so long as you have the TS2010 DVD copy, you can run the route. Upload to TS.com, Trainz.net, hell even seek a rapproachment with UKTS will be better than gambling intellectual property on the DLS.

 

[wholbr]

Hi everybody.

Well Trainz as a MMO, this sounds great. I play EvE Online and its a subscription base game, I pay $260 a year to pay for two accounts, and sometimes I buy in-game currency. I also buy a train ticket which IMHO is also a form of subscription to download content from creators who give it away for me to download. You old farts think you own the game for $60 give me a break. An MMO will only improve the game over time, because an MMO is always a work that is never finished and only get better over time and it keeps everybody working.

There is always more ways to pay for this without just paying a sub.

1. Game money in Trainz can be earn using a trading activity.
2. Real Money can purchased Monthly Game Time (MGT).
3. Game money can be used to buy monthly game time using a player run market system.
4. Game money can be used to buy content for railroads in the player run market system.
5. Players could form rail road companies to compete against each other.
6. Rail roads can go bankrupt for lack of activity (Not paying the bills).

So some kind of competition is needed to keep the game active and interesting.

So the question is how do we gather the resources? What is the build time? Can we trade between shards? How does interchange work.

E.g. I'm a content creator and I build a saw mill that builds railroad ties. A railroad needs to lay track but it needs the ties, the rail, spikes, and all the other stuff for one mile of track. Another player will lease the mill from me, as a content creator any lease money earn with game money can be converted into time and sold for real money. N3V will tax the sale. The player who leased the mill will contract for logs to feed the mill and the railroad(s), own by other players,will supply the contracted carloads of logs to the mill. The mill will sell carloads of ties through a player run market using a contract. Railroads get game money for moving cars to complete contracts. Everything wears out and needs to be repaired or replaced, this needs to be done to keep the game going.

Lots of luck building this.

Ernest 2d6, I believe many would agree with your above thoughts if they wish to see Trainz leave the present niche market it is in and appeal to a much larger customer base than it has at present. However, for that to happen N3V would have to make a much wider presence in the mobile market than they do now with only a downgraded version of the windows product available in either in Android or iOS.

Your ideas Ern could have great appeal to casual gamers much in the way that many millions of us played Hay Day last year growing, processing and selling our products and then building our farms ever larger ( or smaller as the case may be) very often in hilarious circumstances.

So, yes I would be on board with the above and I may also consider paying a subscription for such great gaming entertainment. However, the application would need to be available on a wide cross platform with the mass Google Android market being made available at the very forefront to ensure it's success. With large screen Android devices coming onto the market later this year the the release of such a game could be the “real money spinner” that the N3V management state they are looking for

That said Ernest2d6, do not expect too much support on this forum as with the greatest respect for its members, the vast majority are not members of the target audience your ideas would find support with.

Bill

 

[Vern]

The Android business paradigm is totally different to traditional PC gaming, largely consisting of download, play and delete junk or games like Clash Of Clans which let you get so far then suddenly you are being attacked by players from 20 or 30 levels above. Quite loathsome. Most of the train games on the tablets are utter pants, the only decent one for Android being Hmmsim which costs £1.50 (no ongoing subscription :Y and allows you to play imported BVE routes/trains.

I'm an anti-social misfit train simmer who has zero interest in any sort of MMO or online interaction, other than occasionally sharing my route creations. At the risk of repeating earlier comments, if N3V want another penny out of my pocket, especially after the TANE debacle, it needs to be a straightforward conventional product, that works well out the box, no ongoing subscription (other than if I wish to make use of the DLS) and no irksome little nine year olds demanding I let them have my route so they can put Thomas-copyright-breached-junk everywhere on a serious prototype route.

 

[pware]

1. People are allowed to harass content creators.

The N3V board is rife with examples of people being asses towards content creators and nothing getting done about them. We sure can get casino posts removed with abandon, but let luckyducky69 demand a content creators release his stuff early, demand to have his stuff posted to the DLS or luckyducky69 is going to do it himself, or is allowed to ask for content on end that he has no right to (IE payware or content for people who have removed their content from the community) and they are allowed to continue to do it.

Yes, the "gimme pigs" can be annoying. At best they lack manners, at worse they, as you say, can make all sorts of threats if you don't comply with their demands. Some make their requests out of ignorance ("It must have been really easy for you to create that station building, so can you please make me one of the main station at ..."). There are some content creators, like bendorsy, who seem to have a bottomless well of generosity when it comes to creating assets, on request, for others to use - and thank heavens for people like him.

Unfortunately, freedom of speech means that you can make any number of requests of others to do things for you, no matter how impractical or annoying those requests may be - but you also have the right to ignore them or reply in an appropriate but non-abusive manner. Of course it is not right to accompany those requests with threats. If the "gimme" requests are not threatening, not abusive, not insulting, then quite frankly, people have the right to post them, as annoying as they obviously are.

I am somewhat surprised that someone from the USA, the "home of free speech", would expect that such posts must be removed from the forums. The best thing to do is to ignore them, or rebuke them for their "lack of manners" - I have seen that happen often enough. If they break the CoC then take action.

But lets not change the CoC - that could easily lead to posts being removed for all sorts of trivial reasons.

2. Documentation.

While the Wiki has been lackluster in the past, it has had some improvements, but it still needs a lot of work. It is missing a lot of info that we as content creators need to build content. Do I even need to mention the documentation on scripting?

I totally agree there. I have not looked at the Wiki since T:ANE came out but I do recall my frustrations at trying to find information on how to do something for TS12.

3. Monetizing work done by content creators who made it for free.

This is why the many people have stopped contributing to the DLS and set up their own sites. People spend their time to make item for free to share with the community, not to be monetized by N3V and someone who is going to roll in and make a payware session for a route out of items that said person never created in the first place.

...

N3V, content creators are not your personal uneducated slave labor force for you to monetize. The more you try, the more of us will leave.
Anyone else feel the same way? Sound off and let them know now.

I fully understand what you are saying here. Say I create a house as a scenery item and I upload it to the DLS. If that house is used as a scenery item in a payware (DLC) route, should I be paid for the house I created? This question has been debated numerous times in these forums without a satisfactory result.

A payware route or session would be impossible without DLS content unless the route/session creator was prepared to make all their own content themselves and either upload it to the DLS or make it payware as well. You could easily argue that all the creators of DLS content used in payware should receive some payment - but if a payware route sells for a few dollars and my house was just one of 400 (or more) DLS assets used, how much would I get? Would it be worth it without significantly increasing the cost of the payware? You would get nothing if the sales were zero as a result.

Many content creators make assets for the DLS without any expectation of payment. I have no objection to my DLS content being used in DLC payware without getting any payment for it. For me, the return would not be worth the hassle of dealing with tax and other legal requirements and it helps support Trainz and N3V. I am sure that others feel the same.

Obviously some content creators do not feel the same way, as is their right. In which case I can only suggest that they do not upload any of their content to the DLS. But not all content creators that post their work on third party sites are doing so because of this "monetizing" issue. Third party sites were around long before the DLC was established - retaining control over their work and simply being "independent" are common reasons.

Any "kool aid" or "cat hair" was unintended.

 

[jadebullet]

Well Trainz as a MMO, this sounds great. I play EvE Online and its a subscription base game, I pay $260 a year to pay for two accounts, and sometimes I buy in-game currency. I also buy a train ticket which IMHO is also a form of subscription to download content from creators who give it away for me to download. You old farts think you own the game for $60 give me a break. An MMO will only improve the game over time, because an MMO is always a work that is never finished and only get better over time and it keeps everybody working.

Haha, hahahaha. Fury.

Also, if you believe for one second that a niche game is going to survive a subscription payment basis, I have an invitation to goonfleet to sell you.

Also, I would like to point out that most MMOs end up going free to play within a year. I mean, you have some successful ones that do the whole, you buy the game no subscriptions, like Guild Wars and Guild Wars 2. You also have free to play games that are either run by good companies, and have a reasonable premium structure, or they are run by poorly managed companies who nickle an dime everything with microtransactions and a ****ty grind. I hate to say it, but guess what category I feel N3V could fall into.

I don't even know how an optional subscription system would work other than, "congratulations. You placed 5 trees. Please wait one hour, or buy a subscription in order to place infinite trees" which I can guarantee would result in a multiplayer landscape filled not with quality route builders all working together, but instead just a bunch of people with more money than brains.

And do you really think that N3V would actually set up a PLEX style system? Please.

This isn't trainz the MMO btw. There is no gathering resources. There is no trading between shards or build time. It is just multiplayer surveyor. We already have multiplayer driver(not that it is that stable) And if they did do some sort of MMO style thing, that would probably really push people away as this is a simulator. (Unless they did something like ETS2/ATS)


Also, $260 per year to play microsoft excel the game? No wonder you are willing to pay a subscription to play TANE. Eve is really not that great of a game, with the only fun things happening coming from goonfleet when they go around screwing things up. Even when I played for a bit(Thankfully on goonfleet footing the subscription bill thanks to Hulkamania and Burn Jita) the only fun in the game was with scamming idiots and blowing up PLEX.

As for "old farts" thinking they own the game that they purchased for $60. Yes I know the stupid bullcrap about only owning the rights, but this is how it should be. Especially since 98% of the games content is user created, even the stuff that N3V has claimed as their own with that payware tag.

And speaking of that payware tag. It is pretty damn stupid when the content creator himself can't even edit his own damn content due to the tag. And people wonder why most of the good content creators dislike putting things on the DLS anymore.


Also, I too agree with n8phu's suggestion of punishing gimme pigs.


BTW, I am not going to pull an N3V and take credit for this image, but I found it and it is a perfect representation of what N3V's business plan should be.

(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)

 

[boc61]

So what Ernest proposes is a modern version of Railroad Tychoon? Nice idea, probably would make a lot of money. Why not make it as a separate product for those who would be interested?

I'm not. I don't play MMO's or any online game. Any game I play that has online capabilities I play in single player mode. I don't care about mobile platforms, I don't own any mobile devices not intend to.

Like Vern I am not interested in any online socializing beyond what may take place in a forum discussion. For me the social side of the internet is a cesspool, I want no part of it, I have plenty of real life friends.

N3V is well within their rights to make whatever product they wish and to make as much money they can, I'm a capitalist at heart. I don't begrudge them that. If Trainz next is something appeals to me, fine. I will wish them well and continue to use whatever versions of the game that I still have on my computer.

Also I am not a content creator but I am 100% behind them in their concerns over the use of their content for the profit of others. Just as N3V espouses DRM to protect their interests, I see no reason why the 3rd party creators should not be allowed to do so as well.

 

[boc61]

Well Trainz as a MMO, this sounds great. I play EvE Online and its a subscription base game, I pay $260 a year to pay for two accounts, and sometimes I buy in-game currency. I also buy a train ticket which IMHO is also a form of subscription to download content from creators who give it away for me to download. You old farts think you own the game for $60 give me a break. An MMO will only improve the game over time, because an MMO is always a work that is never finished and only get better over time and it keeps everybody working.

Besides your cheap shot insult, there is one thing wrong with your logic here. IF the makers of that game ever go under, or decide to discontinue that game, however unlikely it may be, you are out all that money , with nothing to show for it. Us old farts, if N3V goes bye bye, will still have our basic game minus the DLC we may have purchased from N3V. We can, in theory play our copies of Trainz for many years to come.

I don't subscribe to anything. I buy, I own.

 

[MeowRailroad]

Trainz is not a railroad economy simulator, where you have to "compete" with other railroads. No! Trainz is a way to build routes at your own pace, on your own time, and however you want. Think about how stupid it would be if someone spends 6 months building an amazing 1930's era shortline, and then in 2 weeks it goes under becuase someone else made a terribly-built, modern-day, multi-bullion dollar Class 1 railroad in an hour that makes more money than the smaller road.

 

[Zeldaboy14]

Trainz is also a game where using your imagination comes in handy. And it's can also be about building new content for the game itself.

 

[bentrain14]

In Summation:

N3V, content creators are not your personal uneducated slave labor force for you to monetize. The more you try, the more of us will leave.
Anyone else feel the same way? Sound off and let them know now.

+1 here. If I made something free and released it for free, I want it to stay free. And why should a company make money off of what I make? Why should YOU make a profit off of my hard work and hours?

 

[shaneturner12]

For those referring to the monetisation, here's part of the DLS license agreement you may want to read (although even that's not 100% clear):

http://online.ts2009.com/mediaWiki/index.php/Download_Station_License_Agreement#Grant_of_license

Shane

 

[jadebullet]

Correct, which is why most content creators have moved away from the DLS. It really feels like N3V doesn't care about their veteran customers, and only care about trying to drag in and pander to newer customers.

 

[KingConrail76]

This... Thank You Jade.

The attitude displayed by N3V towards content creators over the past few years has been going downhill and picking up speed.
......

In Summation:

N3V, content creators are not your personal uneducated slave labor force for you to monetize. The more you try, the more of us will leave.
Anyone else feel the same way? Sound off and let them know now.

P.S. Those of you who will run in here right after I post this and try to convert me are wasting their time. I am immune to the kool aid and cat hair.

I agree, but you're too tame in your approach of more wait and see, or threats of "what if", or "we will" ... The time for talk is LONG over.

Don't talk about stopping, just STOP uploading to the DLS. Period. N3V will change their tune, they've already proven it's all about the money for them, cut off their income.

PS; Tony and crew, if you hadn't fouled up the DLS Servers, I'd be downloading and playing with Trainz, instead of having the time to speak out about your horrendous mucking of what was once a good platform.

 

[NIARTcar]

N3V, content creators are not your personal uneducated slave labor force for you to monetize. The more you try, the more of us will leave.
Anyone else feel the same way? Sound off and let them know now.

Well, said....

 

[KingConrail76]

Well, said....

True, it's well said, but you are still enabling N3V to keep taking advantage. You are giving them the power to do this by continuing to ask for them to change, instead of making them change.

You don't reason with a Toddler having a tantrum, you give in and spoil them, or you discipline them, sternly. It's time for some discipline.

 

[BlackDiamond1964]

Correct, which is why most content creators have moved away from the DLS. It really feels like N3V doesn't care about their veteran customers, and only care about trying to drag in and pander to newer customers.

I moved away from the DLStation a long time ago. I've also given up of getting answers from N3V. At one time I thought this was a hobby that was ready to take off. Now I see that it is just another money making scheme. It's not about sim railroading anymore. It might of started that way in the beginning but now it's all about money and keeping that cash cow alive. It's not just with this company, the Railworks franchise seems to be the exact same way. I've been turned off so much by how this place has treated me I can no longer play any rail sim. I'm done with it.