amigacooke
Well-known member
I'd check post #102 before making rash statements.You're the one who brought up the concept of "loyal N3V customers".
Still, I guess this is another discussion where we're not going to agree.
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I'd check post #102 before making rash statements.You're the one who brought up the concept of "loyal N3V customers".
Your logic, not mine, but T.A.N.E. certainly qualifies.
I'd check post #102 before making rash statements.
Still, I guess this is another discussion where we're not going to agree.
COLD and Calculating... YES! A minnow trying to act like a MS whale... YES. But as their apologists have been saying, they're in it to make money. Have no problem with THAT. TAKE OFFENSE as a programmer at their methodology, and some that the community has let them get away with it since 2009. These non-errors I'm concerned about were likely mentioned, but they stonewalled, and it's cost each of us mucho grando TIME--and robbed us of the enjoyment when doing so of using the programs in the way and for the purpose for which we have it. IT'S UNETHICAL and UNFORGIVABLE.I feel the unsupport, in September 2014, of 09 and 10 is a bit premature, as T:ANE is not even completed, and we don't really know if T:ANE will really work, or pan out to be a future version of Trainz. After the unsupport, TS12 will be the only working version that is supported, and all we have seen so far is the alpha and beta T:ANE
Oh, we get it, but YOU and the rest of the SHEEP championing the arbitrary line in the sand seem not to care that many an asset does not need the higher trainz-build tech to be valid. You seem not to get the justifiable agner that the programmers don't handle known and predictable cases of data organization and rearrange on validation with some elementary exception handling--predictable at that!--so the content is processed with a flaw-by-fiat, instead of a proper teensy bit of code to reconcile the old with the new preferred (Note, preferred vice necessary word choice!) way of organizing the data. Let me ask you this:Thank you - my thoughts exactly. Its just that some people don't seem to get it.
Obsolete vs obsolescent. It's only the latter if someone still finds it useful. Unless you SPIN it as being obsolete. //FAmazing how well software can work even when it's "not supported", huh?
Right, because Trainz wouldn't have existed past 2004 without the founding of the DLS and it's predecessor's sharing assets in UTC. The DATA is the question, not the operation of an less capable version of Trainz. Every data base software vendor since the 50s maintained, indeed put their major programming efforts into maintaining backward compatibilty. Upstart microcomputer companies made their inroads in business by having a faster better translator so the companies stuck with expensive Main Frame computer leases could leave Univac and IBM, et. al. and do the same task. THE TASK is the point. There is to my mind an implicit promise when you buy a Trainz release that the DLS and access to it are part of the licensing. That includes adequate processing of older data to run on newer releases. That's what they are deliberately trying to break, and it needs push back or they will get away with it. // FAny version of Trainz will continue to work with or without N3V's support.
As is apparent in this thread, all you lose is (free) DLS access and uploads. My FSX works fine too, but as a reasonable person I cannot expect to click on the Gamespy Multiplayer button and expect it to work almost a decade since release. Inexplicably, to some people the same logic doesn't apply to Trainz.
EXACTLY the point, and the reason some sporting "THIS IS OKAY" attitudes differ with those of us who feel it is not OK.Inexplicably, N3V seems to think it's logical to disallow uploading of perfectly good assets that meet all the criteria to work in later versions. Inexplicably, they are deliberately breaking functionality for no technical reason, but simply to shut out a pool of loyal customers and perhaps even some content creators. But, sure, life will go on. Perhaps with fewer customers and content creators.
Whoe gives a Flying Fart over the software industries 'License' charade, or cash out of pocket use of something I bought. If they want it back, let 'em come with a court order! // FI trust they are all still licensing you to use the software in its present environment
YEP, nor should any of us be. They've screwed us over with all these curable faults since 2009. How smart do you feel knowing that is so? Don't. It's rather dumb. // FThey might be loyal Trainz users, but they're not loyal N3V customers.
Ibid WGAF above.For the most part, old software didn't have EULAs.
YEP, and they do milk it. Hilliam's family and the board wouldn't be running it still if they weren't getting a reasonalbly good return on investment. SOME of which is at our TIME expense since they didn't maintain compatibility translation for predictable data dislocations. Why are you lot complacent for having to MANUALLY code bogey to bogies { ...} et al, not to mention patching texture paths... // FGood solid read here. Seems to me there are two kinds of developmental principles: dev to maximum potential of machine/system - eg computing, weapons, space exploration; and dev of already maximised machine/system purely for profit - eg motor cars, washing machines etc. The former increase the economic and social potential, the latter merely sucks it dry until only debt remains.
SNIP
But 'everfail? It seems over the years to have modelled itself on Microsh*t, pushily exploitative, devious, happy to forget its past mistakes in the certain knowledge that hopes springs eternally. But Ms is merely splashing about to save itself now, SNIP
Be easy to say that 'everfail is milking Trainz, but the truth is Trainz can't be milked. You can't do a Borderlands -Borderlands 2 with Trainz: it's still those bloody tracks stretching out into the distance and some veg on the side. So it might be that despite the more crass intentions, 'everfail are obliged to actually produce a decent renovation of Trainz.
Nice it if works, very nice. Even nicer is 'everfail recognised the reality.
No your arguement is invalid. Those people believed the DLS would always be there. Pragmatically they make money, so should maintain compatibility. The code was already in TRS2006--TCs... why did it become vaporware? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. This community out to be OUTRAGED that a few lines of code COST YOU a lot of time over the years. They can be mercenary by providing a product that people feel they must have because of features, but don't try to sell me a CON that the version creep is anything but contrived and totally unnecessary. ASK YOURSELF: Why do YOU put up with it? // FAvast Software S.R.O. also SNIP
Your argument is invalid.
Additionally, it seems people still can't grasp the concept of money. Say (for example), a user who bought TRS2004 10 years ago. Since then he/she has been happily playing it without any additional payment, uploading and downloading from the DLS with a free connection How do you suppose N3V earns money to fund development? By shaking the money tree?
Agree that some version creep is acceptable, but the arbitrary five years given their failure to address a TS12-SP2 for it's flaws grates quite a bit. At the least, the community needs to push back to enlarge that, and as I pointed out somewhere, NOTHING prevents them from having last years pre-upload checking routine applied this month when they can branch on the CC's assigned trainz-build level. NOTHING. So this is all managerial mismanagement skinning the sheep. Don't Baaaaaa! Complain! Stop uploading and steal the fuel. // FI think you have a valid point there.
If people would still be allowed to upload 2.9 assets, and people without TS12 but with a FCT can still download these assets, this can still be a profitable structure. Note that I do not have an insight of the actual figures; it might just be something worth calculating IF (and only IF) this would result in people without TS12 (or later) still being motivated to buy a FCT.
In that case the cut-off for pre 3.5 assets could be delayed by (example) a year (or just 6 months till TANE goes life for example).
Something to consider?
Why not? We traded money, I expect to be treated as a customer and for you to act like you want my business going forward. If you want my good will, perform. If you want word of mouth from me, don't F*** me over. Simple. // FNot really, I don't think I suggested anywhere that you had to buy everything that N3V produces to be a loyal customer. However, and perhaps I'm misunderstanding here, you seem to be suggesting that if you ever bought anything from Auran/N3V you are a loyal customer.
COLD and Calculating... YES! A minnow trying to act like a MS whale... YES. But as their apologists have been saying, they're in it to make money. Have no problem with THAT. TAKE OFFENSE as a programmer at their methodology, and some that the community has let them get away with it since 2009. These non-errors I'm concerned about were likely mentioned, but they stonewalled, and it's cost each of us mucho grando TIME--and robbed us of the enjoyment when doing so of using the programs in the way and for the purpose for which we have it. IT'S UNETHICAL and UNFORGIVABLE.
Agree that some version creep is acceptable, but the arbitrary five years given their failure to address a TS12-SP2 for it's flaws grates quite a bit. At the least, the community needs to push back to enlarge that, and as I pointed out somewhere, NOTHING prevents them from having last years pre-upload checking routine applied this month when they can branch on the CC's assigned trainz-build level. NOTHING. So this is all managerial mismanagement skinning the sheep. Don't Baaaaaa! Complain! Stop uploading and steal the fuel
A quick look at Secunia's Vulnerability Database suggests that OSX' record of unpatched vulns doesn't seem any better or worse than Windows'. One of them, a flaw with Apple Java, appears to be a potentially serious one, a system-compromise sploit. The rest appear to be DoS'. Below is an abbreviated list:
http://secunia.com/advisories/product/96/?task=advisories
Edit: I should point out, though, that OSX has more known vulns than all modern versions of Windows combined, and Windows XP predates these records by 2 years. And many of these vulns are the same on different flavors of Windows.
Even I, (the biggest tightwad, cheapskate of all time) has bought 04, 06, TC1&2, TS10, and TS12, as well as multiple FCT's, and DLC assets ... I like to think that I am a loyal customerN3V are ditching their Stone Age versions because they want us to buy their newer stuff. Seems pretty capitalist to me.
Right, because Trainz wouldn't have existed past 2004 without the founding of the DLS and it's predecessor's sharing assets in UTC.
Have you lot considered the extra burden the newer asset graphical demands will add to a newbie content creator's LEARNING CURVE. Why do you all think a content creator should be a perpetual slave to the whims of the arbitrary and needless breaking of a standard that worked fine? Evolve new capacities, sure. Break the old--is what they've gotten away with in many DLS errors. The cost has been to you all. I avoided them for more than five years having seen them second hand as my son struggled with them back in 2007.
Those people believed the DLS would always be there. Pragmatically they make money, so should maintain compatibility.
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Originally by Nicky9499
You moaners can remain in your technological backwater - that is your right - but if you think N3V, or any tech company for that matter, is going to stop moving forward because of a bunch of nostalgic old men complaining about software EOLs you need a reality check.
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\..\parent's_Brother_folder\texturename.tga
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\Sister_folder\texturename.tga // this is one up one folder level, over to sister subfolder normal form... [/SIZE][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\..\texturename.tga // this would be form with the tga in the asset_root folder from a sub-subfolder... [/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Primary=..\texturename.tga // this would be normal form... [/SIZE]accessing folder in parent level folder
Well, their banking on the flash to bring in new customers, though how they hold them once they experience a plethora of errors given the already trashed internet reputation they got, is beyond me. [That's per my two twenties something gamer sons... N3V and Trainz has a horrible reputation on various gamer community forums.]Inexplicably, N3V ...SNIP...
But, sure, life will go on. Perhaps with fewer customers and content creators.
I refer you to Jcitron's We've been had thread and Tony Hilliam's response to John therein. (Linked below) Supposedly, N3V has loads of cash and is rock solid with really good annual performance. That funds a development project sufficiently, using your in-house people wisely, and the servers, Nick. // FYou've lost me, Bolshy Yorkshireman. Please explain to me; where N3V would have obtained the funds to develop all the Trainz versions we've had so far, had everyone stuck with Trainz 1.3, refused to buy newer versions and demanded that N3V continue supporting old versions? The Kickstarter Money Tree?
I think I pointed that out above, the parameters the two camps apply are from opposite points of view. Watching some of you snipe at one another is just like being married and still speaking to the wife! // FYou are correct, and that was poorly put by me. Ultimately, yes, we're probably going to have to agree to disagree on what constitutes a "loyal customer".
TARL was all hand fixes compiled and hosted where people can get at them. The successor--by the same VOLUNTEER and GIVING technical brains behind that is AssetX, and with IanWoodmores scripts, it supposedly fixes over 95%, or expects to (per Paul Cass, who was writing much of the user help for it in the Spring). Nick had nothing to do with it though.Agreed on all points. For the record, I HAVE stated in the distant past that an automated repair process, be it in-game via pre-processing or via a scripted DLS Cleanup, could have prevented many of the problems we're seeing. I'm about 80% certain some kind of automated repair did occur at some point around the first round of DLS Cleanup (including Trainzbuilds being unnecessarily raised to 3.3, even though all the repairs that I ended up repairing worked fine when reverted back to 2.9). There have been a variety of proposals in the past including TARL and I think some other stuff.
Agreed, it's human nature for people (and companies, governments, etc.) to get away as much as their constituents will put up with, and creeping restrictions is usually far more palatable than dropping a bucket of whoop-{bleep}. Vigilance and push-back is the only option that *might* slow down or stop bad decisions. But, there are always blind followers, too, who are quick to rubberstamp any action, no matter how nonsensical or counterproductive. Such is human nature: It was this way long before N3V existed and it will be this way long after N3V is gone.
Not according to Hilliam's defense -- everything's pretty rosy according to him on April 14th. // FI can still understand why N3V are stopping support for TS2009/TS2010. They need money from new sources in order to survive, and supporting older versions is not likely to give them sufficient revenue.
Frank - In terms of the bug fixing, you had an opportunity (not sure if you took it or not as you haven't got a TANE badge next to your name) to pledge and be able to test T:ANE. That's the main way of getting bugs identified nowadays. Shane
I don't, but I'm a bigger tightwad when I've been burned! // FEven I, (the biggest tightwad, cheapskate of all time) has bought 04, 06, TC1&2, TS10, and TS12, as well as multiple FCT's, and DLC assets ... I like to think that I am a loyal customer
Since you want to get personal here Nick, perhaps you should consider that those rants as you call them, are based on a solid year of looking at exactly the reason those errors occur, and trying to get something EFFECTIVE done to have them not occur... in all that old junk any newbie can still download. Think of their reaction when they grab a route and 800 assets later 8-10 have faults (that if pre-processed properly, they would never see!). Sorry if you don't see that as a worthy goal, but I figure that's the very key the Company needs to survive. The key to stopping the internet reputation slide, and not only attract, but hold onto thousands of new users. Stop the bleeding. That's a key to saving any trauma victim. The broken legs can wait. // FrankI don't know if you have noticed but this thread addresses specifically the ability for users of older versions to upload and download new content from the DLS. Bring your wall-of-text rants somewhere else.
I can only say I am glad I no longer try and make quote "crap", for Trainz on reading the comments.
At one time I did make barges, canals, and made them so they could be pulled by the horses in Trainz and on the DS.
Also complex docks similar to what I make now in the Blender Game Engine.
But they certainly don't look like quote 'crap'. to me and even the criss-cross trees look fairly realistic along the canal banks...in the Blender Game Engine nowadays...whether anything of mine still works in Trainz I have no idea and have no interest whether judged as quote "crap" or otherwise.B
http://www.barrygandsw.co.uk/ukcoast.html
Oops! So sorry, but his rectitude and unwillingness to credit the other guys viewpoint has validity finally just got to me. //FGuys, let's not turn this thread into a flame war, you are free to discuss things and make points but please do not do so in an abusive manner.
HEY DUDE! That's plagiarism, even if you did phrase me a bit different! (So sorry, I couldn't resist!) According to Nick, I've papered enough wall here. so just let me say I feel your pain and anger too. A lot of us do. // FrankHey, N3V, here's an idea: give us a REASON for us to WANT to upgrade, don't try to force it with this "End of Support" bs. If we see something that we like in a new version, that is reason enough to upgrade.