Video card question

Why would anyone want or need more than 40 FPS.



This might shed some light on why -


http://joz3d.net/html/fps.html



Movies

I have seen film students write in to columns about how anything over 24 fps is wasted. Why 24 fps? Movies in theaters run at 24 fps. They seem pretty smooth to me, so why would we need more? Well, let's take a look at movies from the eyes' perspective.
First off, you are sitting in a dark movie theater and the projector is flashing a really bright light on a highly reflective screen. What does this do? Have you ever had a doctor flash a bright light in your eye to look at your retina? Most of us have. What happens? A thing called "afterimage". When the doctor turns off the bright light, you see an afterimage of the light (and it is not real comfortable). Movie theaters do the same thing. The light reflected off the screen is much brighter than the theater surroundings. You get an afterimage of the screen after the frame is passed on, so the next frame change is not as noticable.
Screen refresh is also a very important factor in this equation. Unlike a television or a computer monitor, the movie theater screen is refreshed all at once (the entire frame is instantly projected and not drawn line for line horizontally as in a TV or monitor). So every frame is projected in its entirety all at once. This then leads back to afterimage due to the large neurotransmitter release in the retina.
Perhaps the most important factor in the theater is the artifact known as "motion blur". Motion blur is the main reason why movies can be shown at 24 fps, therefore saving Hollywood money by not having to make the film any longer than possible (30 fps for a full feature film would be approximately 20% longer than a film shown at 24 fps, that turns out to be a lot of money). What motion blur does is give the impression of more intervening frames between the two actual frames. If you stop a movie during a high action scene with lots of movement, the scene that you will see will have a lot of blur, and any person or thing will be almost unrecognizable with highly blury detail. When it is played at full 24 fps, things again look good and sharp. The human eye is used to motion blur (later on that phenomena) so the movie looks fine and sharp.


TV, Video Tape, and DVD

TV's run at a refresh rate of 60 Hz. This is not bad for viewing due to the distance we usually sit from the TV, and the size of the phosphors on your average set and the distance between phosphors (between .39 for a high end one, to .5 and higher for cheaper models). This is actually quite big and fuzzy for most of us, but as long as we are not doing any kind of productivity software (such as word processing) and just watching movies at least 6 feet from the TV, that is just fine.
Now TV transmissions, video tape, and DVD play at 30 fps. The increase from movies is due mostly to the environment that the TV is watched in. It is usually quite a bit brighter than in a movie theater, and most importantly a TV does not do a full screen refresh, rather each frame is drawn line by line horizontally by an electron gun hitting the phosphors in the screen. So basically each frame is drawn twice by the TV (60 refreshes per second, 30 frames per second). Now because the frame rate is 1/2 the refresh, transitions between frames go a lot smoother than if you had say a 72 Hz refresh and a movie playing at 30 fps. Don't ask me why, it is due to wave behavior, which is higher level physics, and I can't go into that without making this a 30 page paper. Needless to say, the physics behind this make video and DVD look very smooth.
Motion blur again is a very important part to making videos look seamless. With motion blur, those two refreshes per frame give the impression of two frames to our eyes. This makes a really well encoded DVD look absolutely incredible. Another factor to consider is that neither movies or videos dip in frame rate when it comes to complex scenes. With no frame rate drops, the action is again seamless.


Games on the Computer

This is the second toughest part of this article. TV and Movies are easy to understand, and the technology behind it is also easy to understand. Computers and the way games are projected to us is a lot more complex (the most complex is the actual physiology / neuro-ethology of the visual system).
First off, the hardware used for visualization (namely the monitor) is a very fine piece of equipment. It has a very small dot pitch (distance between phosphors) and the phosphors themselves are very fine, so we can get exquisite detail. We set the refresh rates at over 72 Hz for comfort (flicker free). This makes a very nice canvas to display information on, unfortunately because it is so fine it can greatly magnify flaws in the output of a video card. We will get into refresh in the section on the human eye.
Let us start with how a scene or frame is set up by the computer. Each frame is put together in the frame buffer of the video card and is then sent out through the RAMDAC to the monitor. That part is very easy, nothing complex there (except the actual setup of the frame). Now each frame is perfectly rendered and sent to the monitor. It looks good on the screen, but there is something missing when that action gets fast. So far, programmers have been unable to make motion blur in these scenes. When a game runs at 30 fps, you are getting 30 perfectly rendered scenes. This does not fool the eye one bit. There is no motion blur, so the transition from frame to frame is not as smooth as in movies. 3dfx put out a demo that runs half the screen at 30 fps, and the other half at 60 fps. There is a definite difference between the two scenes, with the 60 fps looking much better and smoother than the 30 fps.
The lack of motion blur with current rendering techniques is a huge setback for smooth playback. Even if you could put motion blur into games, it really is not a good idea whatsoever. We live in an analog world, and in doing so, we receive information continuously. We do not perceive the world through frames. In games, motion blur would cause the game to behave erratically. An example would be playing a game like Quake II, if there was motion blur used, there would be problems calculating the exact position of an object, so it would be really tough to hit something with your weapon. With motion blur in a game, the object in question would not really exist in any of the places where the "blur" is positioned. So we have perfectly drawn frames, so objects are always able to be calculated in set places in space. So how do you simulate motion blur in a video game? Easy, have games go at over 60 fps! Why? Read the section on the human eye.
Variations in frame rate also contribute to games looking jerky. In any game, there is an average frame rate. Rates can be as high as the refresh rate of your monitor (70+), or it can go down in the 20's to 30's. This can really affect the visual quality of the game, and in fast moving ones can actually be detrimental to your gameplaying performance. One of the great ideas that came from the now defunct Talisman project at Microsoft was the ability to lock frame rates (so the rate goes neither above or below a certain framerate). In the next series of graphics cards, we may see this go into effect.


The Human Eye (and Visual Cortex)

Contrary to the belief that we cannot distinguish anything over 30 fps, we can actually see and recognize speeds up to 70+ fps. How can you test this? You can quickly do this with your monitor at home. Set the refresh rate to 60 Hz and stare at it for a while. You can actually see the refreshes and it is very tiring to your eyes. Now if we couldn't see more than 30 fps, why is it that flicker free is considered to be 72 Hz (refreshes per second). You can really tell if the refresh is below 72 by turning your head and looking at the screen through your peripheral vision. You can definitely see the screen refreshes then (due to rods being much more efficient and fast).
 
I have 40 FPS set in trainz options.txt and that is where it stays. Why would anyone want or need more than 40 FPS. By the way, I believe msi rates the data transfer rate at 65gb/sec, which is not too shabby.

I just looked at mine and it is set to 200. What is the advantage of lowering it to 40?
 
I believe 200 is the default rate. Based on my experience with an older, slower video card than the 6670, I was experiencing widely fluctuating frame rates, stutters, slow scene draws and random crashes in driver mode. I subsequently came across a post on this forum recommending setting a slower frame rate in trainz options.txt. By experimentation, I settled on 40 FPS with that older card and experienced much improvement all around, especially the random crashes. With my new msi 6670 I could probably increase the setting to 50 or 60 FPS, but I have not seen any need to do so. It is a good card at a good price and 40 FPS is as smooth as glass.

@djt. Thanks for the information. I now feel qualified to teach the subject. By the way, not all video cards of the same type are not created equal. My personal opinion is that MSI gives you the most bang for the buck.
 
Kind of a miracle that the card you mentioned can get a steady 40 FPS. It has a pretty low benchmark rating. http://www.videocardbenchmark.net/gpu.php?gpu=Radeon+HD+6670&id=96

Bob: We do not know the specs of the card they benchmarked. Mine has a clock speed of 800Mhz and 1Gb of DDR5 memory. MSI says it can be O.C. to 900 MHz, but I don't see any need for it. Besides, it will probably last a lot longer at 800MHz. Incidently, the MSI 6670 has two fans which I set to auto, and I never hear them running even while cruising the NS mainline. All I can hear is the PS fan (barely)

In addition, I am running an Intel i7 @ 3.6MHz and 12GB of high speed ram, which probably answers your question.
 
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@djt. Thanks for the information. I now feel qualified to teach the subject. By the way, not all video cards of the same type are not created equal. My personal opinion is that MSI gives you the most bang for the buck.

I’m glad you feel you can teach the subject lol; at least it puts to rest the B.S. that the human eye can’t see anything above 24-30 fps that we’ve been seeing in various train-game forums for years now. It also shows that the smoothest any game is going to be is when the frame rate consistently matches the refresh rate of the monitor, which for most of us LCD users is 60Hz or 60 fps.

As far as video card brands go I usually base it on the warranty and quality which has led me to usually using EVGA for my Nvidia purchases and Asus for my AMD GPU’s.
 
djt
From the foregoing what should the settings be in trainzoptions.txt should we use
-framerates=60
-framestoaverage=16

Or not make any settings in case the GPU cannot cope with the variety of routes.

Ken
 
I believe 200 is the default rate. Based on my experience with an older, slower video card than the 6670, I was experiencing widely fluctuating frame rates, stutters, slow scene draws and random crashes in driver mode. I subsequently came across a post on this forum recommending setting a slower frame rate in trainz options.txt. By experimentation, I settled on 40 FPS with that older card and experienced much improvement all around, especially the random crashes. With my new msi 6670 I could probably increase the setting to 50 or 60 FPS, but I have not seen any need to do so. It is a good card at a good price and 40 FPS is as smooth as glass.

@djt. Thanks for the information. I now feel qualified to teach the subject. By the way, not all video cards of the same type are not created equal. My personal opinion is that MSI gives you the most bang for the buck.

Some of the information in the articles that were quoted is not correct. Movies at 24FPS are actually refreshed at twice or three times that speed or 48-72 times per second. The shutter in the movie projector is opened and closed twice or three times, for each frame. If this was not done, you would see flicker, due to the persistence of vision characteristic of the human eye.

In TV, that is interlaced , the frame rate is a bit less than 30 FPS, but the picture is shown in two fields. All the odd lines are scanned first, or 262.5 lines per second, and then 1/60 of a second later, the even lines are scanned. The odd and even lines are called fields, so the field rate is 60 hz. So you are seeing 30 comlete pictures a second, shown 1/2 at a time. In Europe where the PAL system is used, the frame rate is 25FPS, or 50 fields per second which is almost the same as what you see in the movie theater for a film projector.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlaced_video


HDTV, and computer monitors use progressive scan, or all the lines are scanned from top to bottom, usually at 60 FPS but sometimes even higher than that. By the way, now they are starting to shoot movies at 48 FPS, such as the Hobbitt, but this is done at special theaters using Digital Projectors. http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2403746,00.asp
 
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Bob: We do not know the specs of the card they benchmarked. Mine has a clock speed of 800Mhz and 1Gb of DDR5 memory. MSI says it can be O.C. to 900 MHz, but I don't see any need for it. Besides, it will probably last a lot longer at 800MHz. Incidently, the MSI 6670 has two fans which I set to auto, and I never hear them running even while cruising the NS mainline. All I can hear is the PS fan (barely)

In addition, I am running an Intel i7 @ 3.6MHz and 12GB of high speed ram, which probably answers your question.

Still a pretty low end card, and the CPU would have little bearing on the GPU's performance capability.
 
djt
From the foregoing what should the settings be in trainzoptions.txt should we use
-framerates=60
-framestoaverage=16

Or not make any settings in case the GPU cannot cope with the variety of routes.

Ken

Ken, that all depends on what version of Trainz you’re using.

From what I’ve been told not all of the options in the trainzoptions.txt even work in TS2012.

That being said the settings are obviously going to depend on what your hardware is capable of. If you can maintain a consistent 60 fps then lock the frame rate at 60. You don’t even have to use the trainzoptions.txt to accomplish this. I just enable v-sync which will lock the frame rate to the refresh rate of the monitor as long as you can consistently maintain that frame rate.

Triple buffering can also help dramatically at smoothing out the frame but with Trainz it’s only supported in OpenGL.

Some useful information on v-sync and triple buffering can be found here –

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794
 
Ken, that all depends on what version of Trainz you’re using.

From what I’ve been told not all of the options in the trainzoptions.txt even work in TS2012.

That being said the settings are obviously going to depend on what your hardware is capable of. If you can maintain a consistent 60 fps then lock the frame rate at 60. You don’t even have to use the trainzoptions.txt to accomplish this. I just enable v-sync which will lock the frame rate to the refresh rate of the monitor as long as you can consistently maintain that frame rate.

Triple buffering can also help dramatically at smoothing out the frame but with Trainz it’s only supported in OpenGL.

Some useful information on v-sync and triple buffering can be found here –

http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794

Thanks very much, I like most other people have been using 30FPS locked being under the false impression that Frames on the TV = FPS on the PC. I will have a further look at the link but in the meantime how do you enable V-sync - I can't see where that topic is discussed or if it is I didn't understand it.

Thanks

Ken
 
The entry -vsync in the Trainzoptions.txt file will do this, but be aware that this will affect other Trainzoptions entries.

Shane
 
Thanks very much, I like most other people have been using 30FPS locked being under the false impression that Frames on the TV = FPS on the PC. I will have a further look at the link but in the meantime how do you enable V-sync - I can't see where that topic is discussed or if it is I didn't understand it.

Thanks

Ken


Ken I should have added that if you can’t maintain a consistent 60 fps, 30 fps is the next best thing.

If you are using an Nvidia video card you can use the adaptive v-sync option which will momentarily turn v-sync on and off when the frame rate drops below the refresh rate of the monitor. It also has an adaptive v-sync option that runs at half refresh rate. In other words if you are using a monitor with a 60Hz refresh rate it will divide it (30Hz/30 fps). It works very well by the way; you can read more about here -

http://hardocp.com/article/2012/04/16/nvidia_adaptive_vsync_technology_review/
 
Ken I should have added that if you can’t maintain a consistent 60 fps, 30 fps is the next best thing.

If you are using an Nvidia video card you can use the adaptive v-sync option which will momentarily turn v-sync on and off when the frame rate drops below the refresh rate of the monitor. It also has an adaptive v-sync option that runs at half refresh rate. In other words if you are using a monitor with a 60Hz refresh rate it will divide it (30Hz/30 fps). It
works very well by the way; you can read more about here -

http://hardocp.com/article/2012/04/16/nvidia_adaptive_vsync_technology_review/

Thanks for your explanations but it seems too technical for me. I think I will try to experiment instead, that might be the best course of action for me. Without the technical ability it is too easy to mess thing up. (confirmed by Shane)

Ken
 
Does anyone know if this will run Trainz really good? Thank you! :wave:

AMD FX Quad Core 4.2ghz processor
EVGA Nvidia GTX 680 Video Card
4gigs PNY Ram
Asus 720g Motherboard
600gig Western Digital Hard drive
 
I'd imagine that is more than sufficient, round off the RAM to 8GB, nothing will hold that setup down.
Does anyone know if this will run Trainz really good? Thank you! :wave:

AMD FX Quad Core 4.2ghz processor
EVGA Nvidia GTX 680 Video Card
4gigs PNY Ram
Asus 720g Motherboard
600gig Western Digital Hard drive
 
I would really look at the ATI 7970 3GB over the Nvidia 680 2GB, i have been buying up to date parts for my computers
and in my opinion you can"t go past the 7970 3GB Sapphire, even the good people at anandtech back the 7970 over the 680,

for starters it has a much higher bandwidth at 380 odd compared to 256 with nvidia and that makes one hell of a difference in game play also 7970 has 3GB of onboard ram compared to 2GB with the 680,

both of these make the wow factor much more of a wow, not to mention the overclocking ability of the 7970 OC 3GB Sapphire, this is one hell of a crazy video card, really think about it,

steve
 
Maybe a better way to suggest a card, what do the developers of Trainz use most, or is it optimized best for, Nvidia or AMD/ATI?
 
Trainz runs best with ATI Video cards why is this so you ask because of the bandwidth being far greater than Nvidia and the on board ram being much more ATI 3GB, Nvidia 2GB, better with an Intel CPUs 2600k Sandy bridge , don't worry to much about what the box states that the game came in, when it comes to graphic hungury games like Trainz only the best will do,

yes you can get away with smaller components to run the game but don't expaned the game by to much or you graphic card dies a fast death so if you can afford it go the better card even the ATI 7970 6GB

The 3 and 6 gb of ram remember your map far better than 2GB will do, it is like jumping from one part of your route to another the ram remembers it and it dosen't lag or shutter trying to recall the textures,

but at the end of the day it is up to you, good luck

steve
 
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