Wishlist: A sub-forum for route planning and data gathering

cressjl

Member
I would like to re-create three railroad areas in time: Hendricks, Douglas, and Thomas, West Virginia, circa 1920; Ceredo-Kenova to Huntington, West Virginia, circa 1970; and Lahaina Kaanapali Railroad’s Sugar Cane Train.

The first is the most historically intensive, requiring a lot of data gathering and planning. These are ideas and dreams, rather than reality. There are no sub-forums really suited to such discussions that I can see.

Would there be enough route designers out there to make such a sub-forum useful? This sub-forum seems more suited for actual layout work, routes, content, and so forth. I'm thinking more of a route wishlist, with history and collaboration that would be in the planning stages alone, where inspiration is motivated into reality.

What think ye?
 
Joel, I think it's a good idea, but since a route is content, I would argue that the content creator's sub forum would be an existing forum for such discussions.

There is a surprising amount of archival material available, if one knows (or learns) where to look. I started with the local libraries and historical societies, and found a significant amount of useful information on the tri-state area of Western VA, Southern WV, and Eastern KY. These institutions and organizations will also help you find if some local historian produced a self published book on one or more of these areas including the railroads. I'd especially expect to see on on the Hawaiian Train you're interested in.

But while route development should be an activity of interest to many trainzer's, it might be that the forums are not the best place to conduct the discussions. Since one can start and email list at no cost (well, except time) on Yahoo or Google, that might be the place to organize the discussions you contemplate.

ns
 
I would like to re-create three railroad areas in time: Hendricks, Douglas, and Thomas, West Virginia, circa 1920. ...

I'm not all that familiar with the railroad history of that section of the state, but I've always found it to be a fascinating area. The fact that Google Maps shows a "Shay Lane" and "Locomotive Lane" as being two of the streets' names in Douglas is by itself something that has always gained my attention! ;)

These towns were originally along the route of the West Virginia Central & Pittsburg Railroad, I take it, later becoming part of the Western Maryland? And this would be part of the Elk Garden coalfield, or is it the Upper Potomac?
 
I'm not all that familiar with the railroad history of that section of the state, but I've always found it to be a fascinating area. The fact that Google Maps shows a "Shay Lane" and "Locomotive Lane" as being two of the streets' names in Douglas is by itself something that has always gained my attention! ;)...
You would appreciate, then, this historical account of the towns in this area: http://wvbike.org/bct/history.html

I could restate what J. Watson has produced, but it is sufficient in itself. His dedication to documenting this history is exceptional. There is enough information on this site to get started with a route. Considering that I have spent some time in the area, and tend to go back there soon to capture some missing pieces, I should have enough data to get started.

Here's an example of the "Then and now" pictures he provides:

tan-thomas-coaling_station-1912-m.jpg
 
You would appreciate, then, this historical account of the towns in this area: http://wvbike.org/bct/history.html

I could restate what J. Watson has produced, but it is sufficient in itself. His dedication to documenting this history is exceptional. There is enough information on this site to get started with a route. Considering that I have spent some time in the area, and tend to go back there soon to capture some missing pieces, I should have enough data to get started. ...

Ok, the then-and-now pics are nice but the information found there looks like very general information that doesn't reveal much detailed, specific information about the rail lines of the area or details about all of the area's mining operations and doesn't seem to mention other industries at all. For example, looking through the (1923) US Geological Survey for Tucker County, it shows that Coketon may have stopped coke production in 1919 but in the neighboring town of Douglas the Cumberland Coal Co. was still making coke in the 1920s, and there was a broom handle manufacturer in Hendricks. Glancing the WV mines report for 1920 there looks like there were about 12-16 different mines working in this area of Tucker County. The USGS topo maps from the '20s for the Davis and Parson quads show a heck of a lot of rail lines (branch lines, logging lines, short lines, etc.) in the general area that don't seem to be mentioned...

I'm not an expert on the area but I do know there were also some short lines in the area operating in the '20s (that the WVBike site seems to have missed) that were using some pretty interesting stuff, such as the Central West Virginia & Southern Railroad's neat little Mack gasoline railcar with Brill "AB" body, aka a "doodlebug." ;)

getimage-idx
 
While I agree in part, being a route builder and one that has done some historical research, I have to say that this does fall under the Surveyor's and Operations & Engineer's forums. The reason is so much is intertwined between each of these aspects of each other, it's difficult to truly separate them from each other.

The photos are amazing how much has changed. A couple of other local Trainzers and I have been doing some historical projects. Among them, if you search my posts, you'll find is the Hoosac Tunnel to North Adams, MA. So much that was in the heydays of the B&M Railroad is no longer! What was once a 3-track main line, followed by a sidings, a wye to another branch, then the 5 mile tunnel which then lead to more triple track to a huge classification yard is all long gone today. The main line is a mere single track and the yard is only three tracks with one being so badly rotted that cars would probably fall over.

Another Trainz user and I travelled to eastern PA and visited the coal operations down there. So much is gone, like your photo on the right, that was once so full of coal crushers and even main lines, is all long gone as though it never existed before.

As you are aware, gathering information on these projects is extremely time consuming and can become expensive should you ever wish to visit the area in real life. The North Adams area is only a few hours from me, but still it's too much of a trip to go and come back in the same day due to mountainous drives on narrow roads in addition to the long highway drive in between. The trip to PA was much longer and more involved and cost quite a bit of money with extra hotel stays, and the gas for the vehicle.

On the North Adams route, my Trainz buddy has been in touch with the local historical society and has gotten some nice information including access to some previously unpublished photos and videos, as well as an opportunity to meet the author and photographer who contributed to a book on the tunnel. This has helped substantially with the project, which of course is still a long way from being finished. So, don't give up on contacting the locals. Once you given them a taste of what you are doing, they will usually help out with much excitement. On our trip out west to North Adams, I brought my old Alienware laptop and TS12 to show off. The people that saw it actually giggled with excitement. It was quite amusing to see old grown men giggle like little kids, but it shows the joy they will have once you show them a finished project.

John
 
I started interviewing "the locals" about local history when I was about 12 yrs. old. I'd interview someone who seemed to have knowledge of a given subject and take notes written down in a spiral notebook. I soon discovered that human memories didn't appear to be 100% accurate, as accounts from different persons would sometimes vary, sometimes by a great amount. It seems many of the things some remember never really happened.

A common story in the area was that a given railroad bridge "fell down" because the railroad was "too cheap to maintain it properly." It wasn't just one or two people who repeated this account, there were a dozen of so people who swore it actually happened. Three or four different people (none of whom were related to each other) insisted that it was their grandmother that was the very last person to walk across the bridge just before the bridge fell down! Hearing "legends" like these repeated as fact is what convinced me to adopt the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" approach to research. :)

I soon learned that if you spend a little time searching for them, you'll find numerous written sources of information that were recorded in newspapers, magazines, trade publications, books, and so on, that normally offer a more accurate insight into history that often times can be used to clear up the "fuzziness" of human memories. In decades past, I spent a lot of my free time in the larger libraries of my area, and spent time at various county courthouses searching through old court cases, random dissertation papers written on historic topics, and old dusty incorporation papers.

With the advent of the Internet, research has become easier than ever before. Google books, archive. org, and numerous other sites offer a wealth of historical information just waiting to be (re)discovered.
 
Ok, the then-and-now pics are nice but the information found there looks like very general information that doesn't reveal much detailed, specific information about the rail lines of the area or details about all of the area's mining operations and doesn't seem to mention other industries at all...
I suppose you are right. I am a fool for expressing an interest in "historical accuracy." I haven't a clue.

I'll leave that to you experts, and when you get it done, I'll gladly purchase the routes from you.
 
I suppose you are right. I am a fool for expressing an interest in "historical accuracy." I haven't a clue.

I'll leave that to you experts, and when you get it done, I'll gladly purchase the routes from you.

I was trying to help you not discourage you. I thought you wanted historical information on the area, so I named a couple of additional sources of into and gave a few example of things the fellow's website doesn't seem to mention. Did I say something to upset you?
 
Well, I have waited a while to respond. I don't want to offend, for you have been helpful. Perhaps I feel that you are throwing water on a drowning man here. I only have myself to blame, in that I speak of historical accuracy as if it is an easy goal to accomplish, knowing fully well how nearly impossible this lofty goal is, even without a Trainz layout involved! :confused:

Offended? No, but only slightly put off by what seemed your marginalizing of Dave's wvbike.org information. No, it is not sufficient history in and of itself, but it is an extraordinary effort of a travel-logger who attaches historical perspective to his tenth-mile trail ride logs! When I first stumbled across his site, I was amazed that the pristine valley that I liked to fish and hike had once housed up to 20,000 residents working the area's heavy industry. His presentation was the seminal inspiration for my desire to see this history brought to life in Trainz. Inspiring, though not adequate, yet Dave's work deserves credit as credit is due.

On the other hand, the task is daunting. As one posted in another thread, I should not speak of route development that gives others false hopes, or something to that effect. This is probably true. Unless I can spawn collaboration, which I lack the clout to do, or come up with massive amounts of free time that I do not have, then I probably will have to scale my ambition back to match my potential, which is quite small.

The best I can do, at this point, is keep the baseboard to 5x15 mile layout, with most a single track from Hendricks to Douglas, then the railyard from Douglas to Thomas, stubbing off the wye at Benbush. A lot of content will have to be borrowed assets, until such time I can replace them. I figure the most critical task at first will be an adequate baseboard. On the positive side, most of the housing in the day was company-provided; all two-story salt-box style housing that was identical house-to-house, save for the color.

Anyway, I appreciate your input. Thanks!
 
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I am an historical route creator. I love the hunt for all the maps, track diagrams, pictures, stories and opinions (there are always more opinions than you need!) I started modeling the Ft. Dodge, Des Moines & Southern in central Iowa back in 2006. Still not done with it, but I have modeled other areas of the country as well. Jay Street Connecting in Brooklyn, NY, 1914 era was quite a challenge.

My latest big project is in West Virginia. I have created all the terrain from east of Charleston to 75 miles west to West Russell, including several lines that go south up into the hills. You are welcome to a copy of this route. It has no scenery, but all the terrain is accurately created using TransDem. It will save you a lot of time on your second listed project.

David
 
...My latest big project is in West Virginia. I have created all the terrain from east of Charleston to 75 miles west to West Russell, including several lines that go south up into the hills. You are welcome to a copy of this route. It has no scenery, but all the terrain is accurately created using TransDem. It will save you a lot of time on your second listed project.

David
Wow, David, that is an amazing offer! Thank you so much for offering to share. At this time, I am engrossed in learning the specifics of Blender, so it will be a while before I could promise to make good use of what you are providing. There is so much to learn, but it is a challenge I am enjoying.

Ceredo-Kenova always fascinated me throughout my childhood, since this is where my grandparents lived. My grandfather retired from C&O, and trains meant everything to them. To live in a place where you had to cross a railroad track to get in or out only emphasized the importance of rail to this industrial area. I would love to recreate the area, but would have to admit that the layout would be about as complex as "IntenCity" to create, and would most likely be a lifelong project to complete!
 
Well, I have waited a while to respond. I don't want to offend, for you have been helpful. Perhaps I feel that you are throwing water on a drowning man here. I only have myself to blame, in that I speak of historical accuracy as if it is an easy goal to accomplish, knowing fully well how nearly impossible this lofty goal is, even without a Trainz layout involved! :confused:

Well, it's not impossible unless you want to make it impossible. Don't sell yourself short. Take it one step at a time. And above all, have fun with it. Don't make it a chore. If you're happy with it that's all that matters. ;)

Offended? No, but only slightly put off by what seemed your marginalizing of Dave's wvbike.org information. No, it is not sufficient history in and of itself, but it is an extraordinary effort of a travel-logger who attaches historical perspective to his tenth-mile trail ride logs! When I first stumbled across his site, I was amazed that the pristine valley that I liked to fish and hike had once housed up to 20,000 residents working the area's heavy industry. His presentation was the seminal inspiration for my desire to see this history brought to life in Trainz. Inspiring, though not adequate, yet Dave's work deserves credit as credit is due.

I understand what you're saying, but if you truly do want to come close to accurately recreating the area circa the 1920s you're going to need more information than is found on those pages. "There's more to the story..."

If you truly want to learn about the industrial history of the area, circa the 1920s, I can start giving you (links to) historical books, articles, etc. to read that you can access online for free in most cases, enough to keep you busy for a week or so reading through all of them.

Unfortunately, I can't just cut-n-past that list into this message, because the list doesn't exist anywhere outside my head. I'd have to go through my notes, look through my digital archives, and come up with items you'd find useful. For almost every item, I'd have to describe where in the book or document you find useful information and explain why it might be useful to you.

At this point, I have no idea about how detailed you want make your project or how much you know about the "layout" of a coking plant. For example, here's a pic of just one small part of the Coketon plant below. Is your ultimate plan to try to come close to duplicating this scene when the coke plant was in operation, or duplicate what it probably looked like just after the coke plant was closed? Give me an idea of what you're wanting to do, and I'll try to help.

800px-Davis_Coal_and_Coke_Co_No_36_Tipple_Coketon_Colliery_ca_1906.png



Another example: If you want to build the "doodlebug" that run into Hendricks that I posted a pic of earlier in thread (or want to get someone build it for you), I can refer you to the full size version of the elevation drawings I have of a slightly newer version of the Mack railbus. Again, you'll just have to indicate where your interests lie, and how far you want to take them.

400px-Mack-Brill_Gasoline_Motor_Car_Drawing.png



On the other hand, the task is daunting. As one posted in another thread, I should not speak of route development that gives others false hopes, or something to that effect. This is probably true. Unless I can spawn collaboration, which I lack the clout to do, or come up with massive amounts of free time that I do not have, then I probably will have to scale my ambition back to match my potential, which is quite small.

The best I can do, at this point, is keep the baseboard to 5x15 mile layout, with most a single track from Hendricks to Douglas, then the railyard from Douglas to Thomas, stubbing off the wye at Benbush. A lot of content will have to be borrowed assets, until such time I can replace them. I figure the most critical task at first will be an adequate baseboard. On the positive side, most of the housing in the day was company-provided; all two-story salt-box style housing that was identical house-to-house, save for the color.

Anyway, I appreciate your input. Thanks!

Well, the area you're talking about is already modeled on Joe Folco's B&O Mega Route so you could just download and install that route and then go about backdating it to the 1920s. All the tracks you're taling about are already done and are in place (along with much of the rest of the WM and B&O lines in the region.) Or you could build it yourself, from scratch. (Keep in mind you couldn't distribute Joe's route without his permission, of course.)

Now, about that concept of "most of the housing in the day was company-provided; all two-story salt-box style housing that was identical house-to-house, save for the color."...

This illustrates what I meant earlier about "there's more to story" ... ;)

Here's a ca. 1906 photo of Thomas, WV. Note that the housing is anything but "identical" in this section of town. Look on the right side of the photo, off in the distance and you'll see the end of town that was actually the "company town" where you'd find a good bit of "identical" housing. The town of Thomas was never a 100% "company town". The company owned section of the town was only a small percentage of the town. Thomas had a great variety of retail stores, hotels, restaurants, a bank, a newspaper, a jewelry store, a meat shop, many fraternal organizations, several entertainment establishments, many large churches, several schools, etc. all of which were owned/operated/run by individuals and private owners that lived in non-company owned housing. Thomas wan't just a "coal camp", it was the area's major retail and trading district. Although the town itself was rather small in size, it was very diverse.

800px-Thomas_WV_ca_1906.png


Thomas' depot didn't even look like a typical "coal camp" depot!

390px-WM_Ry_Depot_Thomas_WV_ca_1906.jpg




Now the "company towns" like Coketon would be a different story. Coketon was a "coal camp" so many of the homes were identical or nearly so. Pic of Coketon, circa 1906 below.

390px-Davis_Coal_and_Coke_Coketon_Mining_Operation_ca_1909.png


Maybe I should just refer you to my page on Thomas, which has lots of pics of Thomas and Coketon, since Coketon practically "ran into" Thomas. The mines in both towns were actually connected (underground.) Have look at the photos on that page and let me know what you think. There's examples of some of the non "cookie cutter" homes and building of the town on that page.

That page also mentions the "other big industry" of the general area -- logging and saw mills. There were two mills located on each end of Thomas. And plenty of other mills in the general vicinity. Do you wish to model the lumber/mill industries as well? If not, that's your choice, but I mention it because it was one of the big industries in the area during the 1920s.

So let me know what you want to shoot for and I'll try to help.
 
You remind me of the time that I was able to play my alto saxophone in the hearing of the retired conductor of the U.S. Marine Band. I truly thought that I was the greatest, as most teenagers do, and could hardly believe that this opportunity had presented itself. He attended our church, where I played regularly. So I played my heart out to impress him, as if there was any hope of doing so!

After a couple weeks, I greeted him, and he said, "I find that musicians generally have a tendency to either hit the notes well, or to keep good timing; it is very rare indeed to find a musician that possesses both skills in equal measure." I blanched and blushed: I knew that he was subtly criticizing my extreme lack of timing precision. I could play by ear and stay in key, but cared little about playing on the beat!

What I lacked in wisdom, I had in pluck, I suppose. I don't think that I would have the nerve to even pick up the instrument in his presence (now many years gone) today, except to learn!

You, too, sir, are an incredible source of information, before whom I cower. I'm not exaggerating in the least. I am amazed that, even though I could throw out a few pictures of my own, yours far surpass my Internet search fare. You have indeed done your research, for which I am truly grateful.

I am drowning in information, but it's all amazingly good. That Coketon plant picture is astounding! Yes, I would like to capture the plant in operation, but what a challenge! Weren't the coke ovens supplied by small, narrow gauge cars? The modeling will be incredible, but I truly would like to take on the challenge, even if it takes years to complete!

Your assistance is certainly appreciated. I would love to keep this area alive, if only in simulation, especially now that the H-Corridor (US 48) is bearing down on the area, along with all other development and reclamation threats that are changing the landscape.
 
The cars that hauled the coke to the ovens were called Larry cars, and usually they were standard gauge but some were wide gauge of 6 to 7 feet! The cars typically held 6 and 1/2 tons of coal. The Coketon plant made 48 hour and 72 hour coke, which refers to the time it took to turn the coal into the finished product. The 72 hour coke was usually used in steel/iron production.

355px-Jeffrey_Coke_Larry.png
 
You remind me of the time that I was able to play my alto saxophone in the hearing of the retired conductor of the U.S. Marine Band. I truly thought that I was the greatest, as most teenagers do, and could hardly believe that this opportunity had presented itself. He attended our church, where I played regularly. So I played my heart out to impress him, as if there was any hope of doing so!

After a couple weeks, I greeted him, and he said, "I find that musicians generally have a tendency to either hit the notes well, or to keep good timing; it is very rare indeed to find a musician that possesses both skills in equal measure." I blanched and blushed: I knew that he was subtly criticizing my extreme lack of timing precision. I could play by ear and stay in key, but cared little about playing on the beat!

What I lacked in wisdom, I had in pluck, I suppose. I don't think that I would have the nerve to even pick up the instrument in his presence (now many years gone) today, except to learn!

You, too, sir, are an incredible source of information, before whom I cower. I'm not exaggerating in the least. I am amazed that, even though I could throw out a few pictures of my own, yours far surpass my Internet search fare. You have indeed done your research, for which I am truly grateful.

I am drowning in information, but it's all amazingly good. That Coketon plant picture is astounding! Yes, I would like to capture the plant in operation, but what a challenge! Weren't the coke ovens supplied by small, narrow gauge cars? The modeling will be incredible, but I truly would like to take on the challenge, even if it takes years to complete!

Your assistance is certainly appreciated. I would love to keep this area alive, if only in simulation, especially now that the H-Corridor (US 48) is bearing down on the area, along with all other development and reclamation threats that are changing the landscape.


You summed it up. :) This fountain of information keeps getting bigger the more you dig, and the more you find, the more you want to dig like looking for jewels and gold. My Trainzer buddy, working on the Hoosac Tunnel route, took a spring trip to North Adams to meet up with the museum and historical society again. He was able to get some rare photos of the West Portal of the tunnel. The area is quite inaccessible, especially in the winter, and requires a trek up a mountain on some sketchy paths, which this guy and Carl Byron the author of the book on the tunnel know about, but is unknown to us non-residents...

While there he was shown a recent washout which has uncovered the original Haupt's West Portal of the tunnel. This was built during the original tunnel attempt, but failed due to cave in on this end and the drill getting stuck on the east end. During the building of the second, and final tunnel, the tailings and rock from the excavation was thrown into the old tunnel portal and filled it in using a narrow gauge railroad to haul the waste. Due to some recent rains, the ground has sunk substantially and there a hole now exudes cold dank air. The old cut that leads to the old tunnel is still there and is partially a dirt path/road today as well as a path for some power lines. So it pays off to talk to the locals and historical societies, who knows what kind of information and sites you'll be able to visit otherwise.

Speaking of music... I've had my own rude awakenings at a similar age. A concert pianist came to town and I did the same. He was very gracious and said I have potential, but there's a long road ahead, and I'll leave it at that... I'm still on that long road now 36 years later! :)

John
 
Gentlemen,
'History' can be an elusive wench to conquer, requiring a 'pick and shovel' in the guise of determination and passion. If you care about you subject, you will be driven, and that drive will open doors.
Walking the ground, researching local archives and historical societies, and talking to locals will uncover a host of leads and threads to follow.
Spending a week in the North Adams area researching the 'Hoosac' has been at least as fruitful as hundreds of hours sifting google searches. Besides, you build relationships and trust that may very well lead to success later. And it's a lot more fun!

Best regards and Good Luck
 
Gentlemen,
'History' can be an elusive wench to conquer, requiring a 'pick and shovel' in the guise of determination and passion. If you care about you subject, you will be driven, and that drive will open doors.
Walking the ground, researching local archives and historical societies, and talking to locals will uncover a host of leads and threads to follow.
Spending a week in the North Adams area researching the 'Hoosac' has been at least as fruitful as hundreds of hours sifting google searches. Besides, you build relationships and trust that may very well lead to success later. And it's a lot more fun!

Best regards and Good Luck
Where is that elusive "Thank You" button? Not on this forum!?

Yes, I am planning my next adventure to the area, as soon as I can get my garage built, and my shed constructed, and my...

Well, you are correct that nothing replaces feet on the ground in historical research. Fortunately, this area of West Virginia seems to have an outstanding compendium of historical information available, going back over 250 years, even before David Hunter Strother made the area well known in the early-mid 1800's. Focusing on a single area and a single era has becomes the true challenge facing me.
 
I don't know how much you've researched your subjects, so I'll offer this basic resource as a great starting point:
http://nationalmap.gov/historical/
The USGS offers 'historical' topo maps, FREE to download (well, actually not FREE, if you went through the recent 'April 15th deadline' madness). Some of these maps go back to the late 1800's. You got me curious so I looked up Thomas W. Va. and found maps going way back. The 7.5 minute and 15 minute maps are more recent but will provide you with a wealth of information and leads. These maps will place rail lines as they existed at that time. Truly a fine and reasonably accurate resource to start off your journey into the past.
Regards
steamboat

PS: Wear good shoes......you're feet's 'gonna hurt!
 
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