Who to blame?

The driver should have checked that the trap point was set correctly. It was obvious before the loco moved that the trap point was set to derail. You could also blame whoever told him the he was cleared to proceed.

Peter
 
.
Looks like a possible SPAD. The signal is set at stop throughout the video.

Would the trap point have been set from the signal box, or at ground level? The connecting rod (presumably for the points rather than the signal) appears to run from the points under the two other tracks towards the signal box.

Would the signal box have been manned? If so would they have any responsibility? It’s difficult to see if there is anyone inside. Clearly a cold & windy day with onlookers wearing winter jackets, and the door firmly closed.
 
Driver.

By the account I have heard, the signal man couldn't set the signal to clear for the train to proceed, so he told the guard that it wasn't working and he'd just give a hand signal to proceed when it was clear (and the trap point set, which would need to be done manually.) The guard relayed this to the driver, and either the driver didn't understand or thought he had clearance to go, so he proceeded without checking the road and derailed on the trap points.

The first whistles was to say the train was moving, the second to acknowledge that it was a stop and proceed at a SPAD.

Though the signal cleared at the track, the problem seemed to have been in the cabin itself. Something in there wasn't displaying properly, or relaying to the trap points like it was supposed to.
 
I think the train driver is at fault. Plus that is the very loco that took me along the Grand Central Railway through Quorn and Woodhouse. I'm surprised it didn't just fly away or sink through the ground like in Trainz.:hehe:
 
Wouldn't the "smart" thing have been to send out the train guard (conductor) to check that it was safe to proceed rather than just driving off? This would be something that should have been done since the signalman said that he couldn't operate the signal.

John
 
Since this is in the UK the engineer/driver should be on the left. And since the engine was facing backwards he would've been on the right side of the track and therefore able to see that the detail switch's points were not aligned.
That is, if he were paying any attention where he was going, anyway.

On a modern engine it's just a quick fix for the trucks. But on a complex steam locomotive with all the interconnected wheels and rods and whatnot I'd presume the whole thing got banged up pretty good. In the aftermath video you can see dents in a few places on the wheels. Pity.

Nicholas
 
jcitron,
I think it's unlikely there was a guard on that train. It appears to me to that it was shunting RES parcel coaches.
 
JCitron said:
Wouldn't the "smart" thing have been to send out the train guard (conductor) to check that it was safe to proceed rather than just driving off? This would be something that should have been done since the signalman said that he couldn't operate the signal.

John
Click to expand...

By the account, it seems that the driver misunderstood the guard's instructions and took off before he was given clearance that the signalman had thrown the trap points.
 
magickmaker said:
By the account, it seems that the driver misunderstood the guard's instructions and took off before he was given clearance that the signalman had thrown the trap points.
Click to expand...

This is very likely. He had a hot foot and put the pedal to the metal before given the go ahead. :)

@uracco - They looked like passenger wagons to me, so I thought there was a guard on board.

I'd hate to have to fix that loco afterwards. A steam locomotive has so much underside running gear and that must've gotten banged up nastily in this accident.

John
 
The running gear of the locomotive didn't suffer that badly, from the UK forum I looked at, but the tender's brake rigging was trashed. They even had to use a power saw of some sort to cut the tender free of the locomotive. (I'm taking what they defined as being one of those big cutoff type discs railroads use to cut rail.)


The cars were baggage/mail type cars, and yes, there was a guard present.
 
ERMERGERD, not the Ivert!! :eek::n: My beautiful, most favorite British steam loco's been put on the ground! :hehe: naw, saw this a while back on Facebook, still makes me laugh...or cry and rage, depending on my mood...
 
Thanks to all those who responded. I will say that to me the first person to fault is the engineer. He is ultimately responsible for all movements of the train.

Kenny
 
Unlike unstoppable......derail's actually work. Engineer and fireman are at blame for not checking their points before proceeding.
 
I'm surprised the RAIB aren't taking an interest in this (perhaps they are but as the loco was apparently re-railed and back on shed at 2am the next morning, it would give them little time). Things could easily have turned out a lot worse. While they may not carry out a full investigation, they would certainly issue some safety directives.

There appears to be both a driver and fireman on the footplate, and a signalman can also be seen in the box. Given that the only circumstances when a driver should pass a signal at danger under their own authority is when they cannot contact the signaller or when the signaller has has given authority to a shunter/pilotman, it would seem that there has been a misunderstanding in the communication between the two as there doesn't appear to be anyone acting as shunter/pilotman (unless they are out of shot).

If you want better understanding of the procedure for passing a signal at danger, this should prove interesting http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Rule_Book/Rule Book Modules/S - Signals/GERT8000-S5 Iss 3.pdf

My personal thoughts, which are of course purely speculative, are that the signaller doesn't appear to be unduly concerned that the loco is moving, so perhaps he believes the road to be set correctly or that the driver is only moving forward a short way. It still doesn't look like anyone has provided an indication to the driver to move off though unless this cannot be seen. It was also the driver's responsibility to check the road was set prior to the move, even more so given that the signal is on.

I work as a shunter at a preserved line and I have never witnessed a shunt which has started without a designated shunter or signaller providing a hand signal to the driver and where there has been any doubt over the person who holds authority over the movement. Given that shunter is one of the most dangerous jobs on the railway, it is absolutely safety critical to know who is doing what.
 
Last edited:
Red means Red,pfx has explained the idiosyncrassies of shunting
It was doomed from the start
The points,The catch points,the signal should all be interlocked
On the bright side the catch points done there job stopping the train entering the main line

Cheers,
Patchy
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

C
Battle Over New Oil Train Standards Pits Safety Against Cost
Replies
14
Views
5K
wholbr
W
F
Railfuture UK - March to Wisbech re-opening scheme
Replies
0
Views
902
fen_tiger
F
P
ACS-64: First peak at Amtrak's newest locomotive
2 3
Replies
45
Views
19K
wkwood
W
O
So... Who lives within 100km of N3V located on Gold Coast, Queensland, Australia?
Replies
16
Views
6K
oknotsen
O
Back
Top